Good Place downgrade because Michael Schur hates me

[Tago238]

Let's be honest, all power in the good place are just one off gags- that's why plot convenience really doesn't care about this. There are upgrades to give to this verse but it

The Judge
The judge really shouldn't be nigh omniscient- they should probably be supergenius via scaling to Janet and should have access to all information via her position- however this isn't really natural, and multiple times in this series we have seen her be duped by Michael, the bad place interfering with the experiment, and a general lack of awareness which is why in her cases she actually needs people making their points in the first place.

To go on further, she should not have immeasurable speed, it should be unknown like everyone else, she has been seen to be comparable to Janet in the previous few episodes and her justification doesn't really make sense. The justification is based on the nature of the area she occupies, which is some form of acausality (though not for her but we will get to that later) and humans were literally able to walk around it. Additionally it was suggested she may be able to get infinite speed via crossing infinite voids- however this has been debunked in the latest episode, when she enters Janets void to investigate she just used a computer to find out if her device was in the inventory.

Michael and potential other demons
It's questionable whether or not he should have the low 2-C tier, it has been shown in flashbacks and current affairs that it is Janet's that create the neighbourhoods. In fact he was shown in episode one of season 4 to be more affected by a punch than Eleanor, this might be 9-B as the same guy punching them was able to throw someone against a wall which cracked it, which should be a downgrade to at least durability. The sinkhole creation also shouldn't be attributed to him as it was off camera from memory, and the 4-dimensional level of it is questionable considering it was just a giant hole with a few spatial effects. In his true form he might be 7-A via size though.

His low godly should also be downgraded to "over time" as Glenn, another Demon and one that should possibly even scale above Michael, stayed as a conscious gooey mess for months.

There is also a possible downgrade to give generally to intelligence as his "1 billion point plan" was developed considering Jeremy Berimy and was overtly stated by the judge to have been achieved with "ages to prepare", which was not given in the creation of the new neighbourhood so Michael wouldn't just be able to flawlessly psychologically manipulate people to get his way. Aforementioned new neighbourhood involved the intellectual aid of multiple relatively average humans. He still is a competent torturer and extremely charismatic but this should be evidence of above average to gifted than anything. I suggest it is just put at "Unknown" however

Acausality should also be removed- while the afterlife does not work in a straight line when comparing it to the earth, Michael is directly applicable to cause and effect, with this more being an area effect that doesn't really affect battles or even basic interaction in the slightest, just allowing for time travel when going between universes.

 

[Iisdude1]

Bump

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

To be fair, we didn't know at first that Janet was the one to have made them. But now that we do the downgrade is fine

 

[Udlmaster]

Nope, Janet should stay Immeasurable in speed, in Episode 13 of Season 4 Janet says she:

"To me you'll never truly be gone. I don't expeirence time the same way you do, I kinda live all times at once"

Could be Acausality, but she specifically states she "lives them":

"To me, remembering those moments with you is the same as living them."

Judge has been shown to be comparable to Janet herself and is considered superior to all of them.

As for Michael, we know why he's "weak", he's in a suit, the real Michael was a 500ft tall Squid Monster, additionally, we know that beings like Michael would be Low 2-C, or High 3-A via being able to expeirence infinity.

We know from Episode 12 that unlike Humans Michael can comprehend Infinity instantly and doesn't need to "adjust" to infinite size, requiring Infinite mental power to even do.

Additionally, the Demons have been shown to be comparable to Janets on some occasions, and while generally she is superior to them, she shouldn't be infinitely inferior to her given the fact they create her.

As for the questions about "Average int humans", that was also explained away in episode 12 of Season 4, that the Good Architechs had tried "Literally everything" good, they never though of something that gave them purpose that was not good, it's merely like having a computer who can only count even numbers try to count 3 too.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bad_Place Civilization profile would be effected too

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, Michael and the other Demons should have either Resistance Conceptual Manipulation / Life Manipulation / Death Manipulation / Soul manipulation / Existence Erasure.

Reason for this is that Michael was completely immune to the Door which could kill the Ghosts of the Main cast which "makes your freckin' essence become one with the freakin' Universe"

Also, Janet should have Power Nullification/Transmutation as she could turn Michael into a Human which nullified all of his powers.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Wait, hold on, wasn't michael the one who kept rebooting the universe? That's the only reason Low 2-C miiiight be able to stay.

 

[Udlmaster]

Wait, hold on, wasn't michael the one who kept rebooting the universe? That's the only reason Low 2-C miiiight be able to stay.

Oh yeah, of course, at the snap of his fingers he could reset the entire neighbourhood and did it hundreds of times.

 

[Tago238]

He didn't actually reset the universe. He just brought the humans into a catatonic state and reset their memories while he prepared everything with the demon actors meanwhile.

 

[Udlmaster]

He didn't actually reset the universe. He just brought the humans into a catatonic state and reset their memories while he prepared everything with the demon actors meanwhile.

That wasn't what was said, we know that happened for the test they all did, but don't know about what Michael what does doing besides "Reset"ing everything.

 

[Tago238]

Fairly sure the only effect resetting showed was the effect it had on the humans minds. He was seen talking and encouraging the demons before the experiment and placed a catatonic Eleanor in a room and at one point accidentally just sat on a button that woke her up. Also I can find that point at season 4 when they ended the experiment and it had the same effect.

 

[Tago238]

Oh, btw apparently the reason for low godly is the eternal shriek or retirement, which is totally to do with type 2 or 5 immortality than anything else. As previously stated over a period of months Glenn could regenerate from being rendered goo, so Mid High over time I guess.


"Essence" does not imply concept, especially if there is no other evidence to suggest as such and it could easily be replaced with any non physical aspect, of which it would via Occam's razor and wiki standards. It's also literally stated to be the soul, so there would only be resistance to that and even that is debatable. It's obviously not existence erasure because their existence is still there?


Fairly sure it was Gen whi nullified Michaels powers, or it wasn't shown and there is no reason to believe it was done by Janet.


Janet "living" all timelines doesn't indicate her actually ,ovimg from place to place within that timeline, this was discussed in a currently running upgrade CRT and it was put as Immeasurable perception speed


Similarly to the last, "experiencing" infinity does not equal having the power to destroy infinity- Michael has already shown higher dimensional perception anyway and that, again, doesn't scale to how much he can destroy


As I said, Michael should normally be 10-B and in his true form be somewhere in tier 8 (it said type 3 large size on his profile so I thought it was 7-A)


What you said about the computer was kind of similar to a shirt story I was writing until I found out SCP already did it. Uh, I never mentioned good place architects. On Michaels profile it said he had super genius intelligence because of his 1 billion point plan which was stated by the Judge to be more a product of his type 1 immortality than anything else.


More downgrades:


Type 8 is on some profiles and should be deleted

Janet is never stated to have created the space time of the neighbourhood and the neighbourhood is too small to be comcisdered a low 2-C space time (or any tier giving space time) anyway. Even the neighbourhoods sun is not the size of an actual sun shown from the size of a dog relative to it and the fact that it actually isn't that far away as shown by the speed of the dog and how long it took for it to reach that area. This should give Janet a 7-C ranking with a "possibly High 3-A" ranking via her void and maybe an "eventually would become High 1-C" via scaling to Derek. Excluding the High 1-C part this scales to the judge


There are probably more to add but that's it for now (time to harass Ultima on more things I guess)

 

[Udlmaster]

>Oh, btw apparently the reason for low godly is the eternal shriek or retirement, which is totally to do with type 2 or 5 immortality than anything else. As previously stated over a period of months Glenn could regenerate from being rendered goo, so Mid High over time I guess.

IIRC, Wouldn't it be High Regen, as they needed to separate each molecule.

>"Essence" does not imply concept, especially if there is no other evidence to suggest as such and it could easily be replaced with any non physical aspect

Yeah, no. Janet, a Soulless being possesses an "Essence", so it's obviously not souls.

>Fairly sure it was Gen whi nullified Michaels powers, or it wasn't shown and there is no reason to believe it was done by Janet.

Janet said she got permission from Gen to do it, meaning she could have done it whenever she wanted to, but needed permission to do it on Michael.

>Janet "living" all timelines doesn't indicate her actually ,ovimg from place to place within that timeline, this was discussed in a currently running upgrade CRT and it was put as Immeasurable perception speed

Not really, as even in season 1 Janet says she isn't bound to time the same way Jason is, which is an indication of her phsyiology and not her perception abilities.

>As I said, Michael should normally be 10-B and in his true form be somewhere in tier 8 (it said type 3 large size on his profile so I thought it was 7-A)

On several occasions Michael is not only stated to be an "All-powerful Demon", but even Janet says that while she creates the places, but Michael designs everything. As well, Demons casually have machines which can recreate Michael's "Good Place" when they're testing the Humans in season 4.

>On Michaels profile it said he had super genius intelligence because of his 1 billion point plan which was stated by the Judge to be more a product of his type 1 immortality than anything else.

Uhh, Gen isn't in the scene when Michael brings up the 1 Billion point plan, nor did he ever even remotely say it was down to his age or having enough time, we even can comfirm that he has Supergenius intelligence as he can read the entirety of Human literature in 1 Hour.

>Even the neighbourhoods sun is not the size of an actual sun shown from the size of a dog relative to it and the fact that it actually isn't that far away as shown by the speed of the dog and how long it took for it to reach that area.

Yeah, no. On several occasions throughout season 1 the "Good Place" is said to be Infinite. If you want to go with an outlier then Vicky says it "stretches for Thousands of Miles".

And yes, Janet would be Low 2-C based on her "Boundless Void". In fact, actually, her Void scales to the entire verse, as she states the Void is "Literally everywhere"

>and maybe an "eventually would become High 1-C" via scaling to Derek

Why is Derek High 1-C? If it's about him being everything, then he already scales to that via the Void.

And Gen would be superior to that as well, as even an Army of Janets couldn't stop Gen.

 

[Tago238]

My actual point was that nowhere in the eternal shriek's description is it implied that it's supposed to negate demons regenerative abilities by inflicting soul or life force based attacks on somebody. It shouldn't be regen, just type 2 or type 5

You know "essence" can imply a million other things other than the soul, right? Life energy (which would we resistance to life absorption) is considered different to the soul and is highlighted to be the case in the good place via its distinction from one another in the description of the eternal shriek. It can also mean mind, and likely many other things I can't be bothered to remember which are considered different by wiki standards. Furthermore, I have no idea why you are referring to what Janet would define as her essence. It only effected the humans and their essences, which could be the soul anyway, as I've pointed out what people's "essences" are can come under several things, it's basically a sort of umbrella term.

Being differently bound to time than a normal human being can totally refer to perception and there is no reason to assume why it wouldn't.


Christ, you know in my original point I said it was revealed later by Gen that that was how Michaels plan was done? It's when they are first discussing the experiment and Gen says they won't have time to prepare for ages like Michael did, which is why Michael frequently requires the aid of people who aren't super geniuses for the experiment


You do know what "design" means right? I'm sorry for sounding snarky but if I provide blueprints for an operation to somebody then I don't physically have an impact upon the creation of the structure I have designed.


The Good Place =/= Michael's neighbourhood, and you should probably find scans of those statements anyway. Also even then the statements aren't really to be trusted as Michael states multiple times he doesn't know what the good place is actually like and has never busted there. Having a natural universe at your control doesn't make you usually able to destroy or create universes. Also fairly sure statements like "literally everywhere" seems like an outlier at best. Why would they need to travel from the void to the office if the void encapsulated everywhere?


Considering Janet is almost certainly not scaling to the entire verse at her current level Gen, as discussed on the upgrade CRT (which you could like, go to or something considering it's still active), would not scale at least physically or in AP to Janet as the Janets that we're considered inferior to Gen hasn't been rebooted billions of times like Derek.

 

[Udlmaster]

>My actual point was that nowhere in the eternal shriek's description is it implied that it's supposed to negate demons regenerative abilities by inflicting soul or life force based attacks on somebody. It shouldn't be regen, just type 2 or type 5

Well, it's heavily implied to be exactly that, as we know they have to be tortured at the same time.

>You know "essence" can imply a million other things other than the soul, right?

Equivocation fallacy, just because it can mean a million other thinks does mean that it is those million things:

We know essence in The Good Place is:

• More Fundamental than a soul
• Soulless Beings who aren't anything possess essence

>Life energy (which would we resistance to life absorption)

Michael and Janet don't have lives, so it's not life force.

> Furthermore, I have no idea why you are referring to what Janet would define as her essence.

I didn't say she is essence, I'm saying she, a soulless, lifeless being who isn't anything other than "Janet" has essence, as her Void is tied to her essence, making her Low 2-C. It means that Essence is more fundamental than a soul and even a Janet.

>Being differently bound to time than a normal human being can totally refer to perception and there is no reason to assume why it wouldn't.

We do actually, as not only can Janets traverse their Infinite Void, traverse the 10th dimension, but they're also superior to Time as even Demons snort time as a drug. And when they were in the 10th Dimension there was both all time and no time.

They literally don't care about time at all.

>Christ, you know in my original point I said it was revealed later by Gen that that was how Michaels plan was done? It's when they are first discussing the experiment and Gen says they won't have time to prepare for ages like Michael did

She's talking about the resets and how he had hundreds of years throughout the resets. And are we forgetting, on the fly Michael was able to make 10,000s of references to Chidi's philosophy books without the other demons knowing.

>You do know what "design" means right? I'm sorry for sounding snarky but if I provide blueprints for an operation to somebody then I don't physically have an impact upon the creation of the structure I have designed.

In order to create blueprints for something infinite, I too would not only need infinite speed to write all of this down, but I would also need infinite power to move the item, and Michael says: "Every molecule, every blade of grass"

>The Good Place =/= Michael's neighbourhood

I put it in quotes, because it wasn't actually the Good place.

>Considering Janet is almost certainly not scaling to the entire verse at her current level Gen, as discussed on the upgrade CRT (which you could like, go to or something considering it's still active), would not scale at least physically or in AP to Janet as the Janets that we're considered inferior to Gen hasn't been rebooted billions of times like Derek.

Derek was rebooted a Hundred million times, and it doesn't matter, Janet's void is "everywhere and no where" and that's tied to her essence.

All the Janets have their own private Void that's omnipresent throughout the Verse, so they would all scale.

 

[Tago238]

How does it involving torturing have anything to do with it being for the purposes of negating regen?

I'm not using equivocation fallacy. Using equivocation fallacy would be treating a word as if it had the same meaning in two contexts, which is kind of what you are doing in; "an essence can be something's concept, what was spread across the universe by the door was an essence, ergo the door can manipulate concepts". I'm saying that when something is clearly an umbrella term that is used loosely and is clearly not universal terminology like you seem to think it is you don't assume it to be something's concept, as that would be assumptive.

I never said she was essence, just that she had one. Again, to assume essence to be an objective universal term and not informal terminology is unfounded, and yes, the equivocation fallacy. Please find scans for her suggesting her void is "tied to her essence" which in itself is dubious but warrants the "possibly High 3-A or Low 2-C" ranking I suggested earlier.

Fairly sure "her traversing the infinite void" if there have ever been examples of that, has come from teleportation and we wouldn't immediately assume it to be speed. Uh, she went into IHOP with the others, literally transcending above the 3-D area of it was never shown. The "snorting the concept of time" thing doesn't = time and the way it works makes it fairly obviously just a random statement than anything we can build solid stats on. Ah yes, clearly the people who have been pursuing a goal throughout most of the series that has been entirely causal in nature don't care about linear time in the slightest.

Again, you are assuming to inflate stats in regards to Michael's intelligence. Without sufficient context to prove Gen was more likely referring to Michael's resets a, from what we can assure at a surface level, 50/50 chance either way for what Gen meant is terrible. That feat about the subliminal messages is valid though I don't think it was 10,000 in number nor is it substantial enough to warrant a supergenius ranking. Maybe extraordinary genius, though you would have to prove it wasn't an outlier and because obviously I can't remember a lot of these feats you will have to find scans or evidence considering I, and other knowledgeable members can't take your word for it.


There is also probably a fallacy in using a contested point as if it was a civil axiom and applying it to multiple other points. So, uh, I'll just ask you to please provide scans of it being stated that neighbourhood's are infinite from a reputable source other than Michael, even though the points you make succeeding such a postulation have flaws- which we will come to later in order to not be rendered subject to debating on a single point not properly justified in it's fundamentals which I can see the possibility of considering the sadly all too common strawman-esque technique you seem to be using by just taking small snippets at parts and disregarding the rest of the argument.


Janet has had to use the door to the earth, the transport system in the office and other means of continuing the plot not treated as being encapsulated in her void. Especially since she had trouble sustaining 4 humans and some items, which if her void contained the entire multiverse she would have definite troubles with. The statement can probably just refer to the weird metaphysical nature of the void in that it's partially in existence and partially out of it. I can actually see some legitimate concept stuff in the void since it was treated as non physical and their beings were generally overwritten by Janet until they expressed their identity more.

 

[Udlmaster]

>How does it involving torturing have anything to do with it being for the purposes of negating regen?

It means they're not only sentent, but them torturing keeps from from coming together like they always do.

>I'm not using equivocation fallacy. Using equivocation fallacy would be treating a word as if it had the same meaning in two contexts

No, just read the page...

"This is when someone uses two different meanings of a word to imply something that isn't necessarily true."

You're saying that Essence has multiple meanings therefore, I'm wrong.

>Again, to assume essence to be an objective universal term and not informal terminology is unfounded

Okay, prove it.

>Please find scans for her suggesting her void is "tied to her essence" which in itself is dubious but warrants the "possibly High 3-A or Low 2-C" ranking I suggested earlier.

I don't have to find implications, she flat out says it, Season 3 Episode 8:

"And when you say "Void"..."

"Oh, I mean a Sub-Dimension outside of Space and Time, at the Nexus of Conciousness and matter, thethered to my essence."

>Fairly sure "her traversing the infinite void" if there have ever been examples of that, has come from teleportation and we wouldn't immediately assume it to be speed.

No, Gen traversed (Our) Janet's infinite void when they failed to make their pitch.

Gen was using the Janet's computers to see if their void had the Reset button.

Janet herself says that she put the button at the furtherest point in her void but they don't have long.

And when has Gen or Michael ever teleported?

>Uh, she went into IHOP with the others, literally transcending above the 3-D area of it was never shown.

She went into the 10th Dimension with the others, the Humans just can't see in those Higher Dimensions. They literally say that.

>The "snorting the concept of time" thing doesn't = time

Prove it.

>Ah yes, clearly the people who have been pursuing a goal throughout most of the series that has been entirely causal in nature don't care about linear time in the slightest.

Yeah, the Demons and other Supernatural creatures obviously don't care about Time. See above, they literally snort it.

>Again, you are assuming to inflate stats in regards to Michael's intelligence. Without sufficient context to prove Gen was more likely referring to Michael's resets

You're saying Gen was talking about Michael having time to prep BEFORE "The Good Place" was made.

Prove it.

>Again, you are assuming to inflate stats in regards to Michael's intelligence. Without sufficient context to prove Gen was more likely referring to Michael's resets

"We got all 4 clues"

"Ah good, but I left you more than 12,000 clues because of how primitive your brains are"

Season 2: Episode 8

>So, uh, I'll just ask you to please provide scans of it being stated that neighbourhood's are infinite from a reputable source other than Michael,

Why not Michael? Michael literally designed the entire place, if anyone is reliable, it's him.

>Janet has had to use the door to the earth, the transport system in the office and other means of continuing the plot not treated as being encapsulated in her void.

And? Janet's are only supposed to serve people in Heaven or Serve the Demons in hell, they never have any reason to go there.

>Especially since she had trouble sustaining 4 humans and some items

It didn't, it had trouble sustaining 4 Janets.

>which if her void contained the entire multiverse she would have definite troubles with.

See Season 1, she directly states it's everywhere and Nowhere.

>The statement can probably just refer to the weird metaphysical nature of the void in that it's partially in existence and partially out of it. I can actually see some legitimate concept stuff in the void since it was treated as non physical and their beings were generally overwritten by Janet until they expressed their identity more.

Yeah, as you can see it's talking about how they're rewritten conceptually into Janets, as they even gained some of her powers, but didn't know how to use them.

Janet states that their essence was re-constituted into "that form", and we know Janet's are soulless, so it couldn't be a soul.

 

[Tago238]

Okay, but then you do get torturing is to induce pain, yes? The torturing part has nothing to do with it, it's that you believe that there is a neccisty in repeated application of damage to avoid Regenerationn. I am fine with this conclusion.


I.. don't think you get what equivocation fallacy is, it's kind of vague in its explanation on the page. It's when there are two or more premises founded on a sequitur that ignores differing uses for words. For example, my first premise could be that a crane is a large metal structure- now because a crane is also a bird I would say that all birds possess at least some "conventionally" inorganic components due to the genetic similarities all would share with a crane. Thus would be using two different meanings of a word to prove a statement that isn't necessarily true. This is kinda what you are doing, which is what I pointed out.


I don't need to prove that essence is an umbrella term referring to multiple different things ands that while essence could include concept, soul, mind, etc we don't just assume it to be the most powerful of those things especially if one of those doesn't apply to a single person. And I'm nit saying you are definitely wrong by saying that it could theoretically effect the concept but that would be a large assumption and one we shouldn't use for indexing.


I just assumed that what you were referring to might have been teleportation since I can't be bothered to watch that episode again, also I was talking about Janet teleporting which she frequently does, and you might have said Judge Gen scaled if it was speed.

Eh, fair enough- that's just Judge Gen though and it's only infinite


Uh, well I shouldn't need to prove why two different things are in fact, different. Anyway, time wasn't even effected so it's more like they were subjected to some weird effects rather than manipulating time itself- which could warrant a low 2-C ranking as that would make such concepts Aristotlean


Fair enough, but more extraordinary genius than super genius anyway


Because most of what Michael said in season 1 in regards to the neighbourhood was to impose a sense of grandiosity of the place onto Eleanor so she would get guilty and insecure. Anyway, please find scans and please do screenshots or something.


Okay, so one if Janets main abilities is to literally use the train to bring people to other universes- why would she be using the train if she could transport them anywhere in her void. Also, she totally needed to travel to those places- I was explicitly mentioning them as means of transportations to different places which were not provided by her void. Also season 1 statements have questionable trustworthiness, I imagine Michael Schur hadn't actually come up with all the lore by that point since season 1s for his shows have been commented by him and critics to be more test trials than anything else- he undergoes major reworkings between a season 1 and a season 2.


Fairy sure people being turned into Janets was to make it easier for her (don't take my word on that one though) she literally shows of to the judge later that she can now sustain "4 humans and (some actor from west world I think who I forgot the name of)" which she would have struggled to do prior.


I agree with Janets conceptual manipulation, probably type 3 or 4 considering there is no reason and it is outright refuted to be Platonic.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Type 3 conceptual makes sense

 

[Udlmaster]

>Okay, but then you do get torturing is to induce pain, yes? The torturing part has nothing to do with it, it's that you believe that there is a neccisty in repeated application of damage to avoid Regenerationn. I am fine with this conclusion.

Actually, no, I just realised, they should have High-godly, or at least Very good resistance to conceptual manipulation.

As Michael was able to create a door which erased people's essence and made it become one with the Infinite Universe, however, Demons still can't kill either demons.

And yeah, it seems that the torture is to keep them there, considering the Demons have been exposed to the literal Big bang or were around when it happened (as repeatedly stated by everytime their birth is brought up) they should have High Regen over time.

>I.. don't think you get what equivocation fallacy is, it's kind of vague in its explanation on the page. It's when there are two or more premises founded on a sequitur that ignores differing uses for words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocatio

>I don't need to prove that essence is an umbrella term referring to multiple different things

You do in the context of the verse, not in the dictionary.

>we don't just assume it to be the most powerful of those things

We didn't, I gave multiple reasons why it's not a soul, life etc.

>And I'm nit saying you are definitely wrong by saying that it could theoretically effect the concept but that would be a large assumption and one we shouldn't use for indexing.

It's not an assumption, it's process of elimination.

>I just assumed that what you were referring to might have been teleportation since I can't be bothered to watch that episode again, also I was talking about Janet teleporting which she frequently does, and you might have said Judge Gen scaled if it was speed.

Nah.

>Uh, well I shouldn't need to prove why two different things are in fact, different.

In the context of the verse, you would have to.

>Anyway, time wasn't even effected so it's more like they were subjected to some weird effects rather than manipulating time itself

In what sense? Because the Afterline timeline is already totally messed up so we wouldn't know how time is affected by them snorting it.

>Because most of what Michael said in season 1 in regards to the neighbourhood was to impose a sense of grandiosity of the place onto Eleanor so she would get guilty and insecure. Anyway, please find scans and please do screenshots or something.

Why would he lie about the size though? If it were Chidi, sure, as Chidi has issues like that, but to Eleanor, not so much, and why would he lie about that as well? He said many truths while talking to Eleanor as well as lies.

>Okay, so one if Janets main abilities is to literally use the train to bring people to other universes- why would she be using the train if she could transport them anywhere in her void.

It's not her main ability, it's a off-shoot of her abilites, even Derek could use the train.

And we see why, firstly, Janet didn't know what was going to happen, the cast died and became Janets and the Janets were destabalising the Void.

And, no one ever asked her to do that or required her to do that. She only did it then because she was reset enough and needed to do something quickly, it's a unque situation.

>Also, she totally needed to travel to those places- I was explicitly mentioning them as means of transportations to different places which were not provided by her void.

Has she ever stated she needs to travel there? It's more likely she just travels with Michael because she's his attendent and best friend.

>Also season 1 statements have questionable trustworthiness, I imagine Michael Schur hadn't actually come up with all the lore by that point since season 1s for his shows have been commented by him and critics to be more test trials than anything else- he undergoes major reworkings between a season 1 and a season 2.

We have no reason to dismiss the lore for season 1 unless it's contradicted by a later season.

And the later seasons constantly make references to Season 1 such as the "take it sleezy" thing being the last thing said in the show was a statement from season 1 where Michael said he wanted to say that. We have no reason to discredit Season 1.

>Fairy sure people being turned into Janets was to make it easier for her


"That's correct Chidi!Janet, your real bodies dematerialised and your essences reconstituted themselves in this form"

Janet didn't do it.

>I agree with Janets conceptual manipulation, probably type 3 or 4 considering there is no reason and it is outright refuted to be Platonic.

The only argument for Type 2 is the Nexus of Conciousness and it containing everything imaginable, including Patty's thoughts, as Chidi said "Neo-Platonic".

Which I don't see scaling to Janet anyway, and would just scale to the Creators of Light and Darkness and everything between and Gen.

As well, Michael should have type 3 as he created the Doorway.

 

[Tago238]

Ugh, I don't have time to reply to all of these atm. But, uh, [[1]] I'm not wrong in the slightest, I advise you to desist in your delusions.

You are also not "eliminating" anything, as I have tried in vain to explain multiple times. Just because Janet's essence isn't the soul (or apparently life energy) doesn't mean that the word is being universally redefined in the good place verse. Does the real world definition of essence stay the same, yes. Does that mean that essences such as the soul are a perfectly valid explanation for those who have been stated to possess souls multiple times for what was dissolved across the universe? Yes. Not only that but aim fairly sure the door has been DIRECTLY stated to be the soul multiple times. Since you seem to be a knowledgeable member on the verse I'm sure you probably know that, unless of course you have an extraneous selective memory- but it's likely you are just attempting to wank.

 

[Udlmaster]

>Ugh, I don't have time to reply to all of these atm. But, uh, [[1]] I'm not wrong in the slightest, I advise you to desist in your delusions.

Yeah, propenderence of evidence. So you might want to try not to fall off there, because you're placed yourself high up on that High horse, wouldn't want you to fall off.

>You are also not "eliminating" anything

Okay, you try to act superior then you're too dense to understand what the process of Elimination is. Well done, you fell of that High Horse at the first sentence.

The process of Elimination is simply trying to findout what something is by what it cannot be.

>Janet's essence isn't the soul (or apparently life energy) doesn't mean that the word is being universally redefined in the good place verse.

Okay, prove it. Prove that everytime Essence has been used it means something different, because newflash, I've rewatched the series several times now, and it's never used in another context.

>Does the real world definition of essence stay the same, yes.

No? What? Are you new to the Vsdebating scene or something? The verse defines terms when it comes to matters like this, not the dictionary.

It's why verses that state "Hyperdimensional", "Platonic Concept" and "No limit to the number of Dimensions" need to explain what they mean.

This has been an accepted fact since 2018, so you might not want to act so superior, because you are quite far from it.

>Does that mean that essences such as the soul are a perfectly valid explanation for those who have been stated to possess souls multiple times for what was dissolved across the universe? Yes.

Wrong, as usual it seems. Essence in the context of the verse has not been used to mean soul, so this interpretation is invalid.

>Not only that but aim fairly sure the door has been DIRECTLY stated to be the soul multiple times.

What? No. The Door erases their essence and makes them one with the Universe. The Door has nothing to do with people possessing souls or essences until they step through it until which, it removes it.

>Since you seem to be a knowledgeable member on the verse I'm sure you probably know that, unless of course you have an extraneous selective memory- but it's likely you are just attempting to wank.

If I wanted wank, why wouldn't I say: "Janet's void is everywhere, therefore, it's in the nexus of conciousness and she would possess Type 2 concept manipulation and Omnipresence as her Void is tied to her concept.

And Janet would be 1-A as she scales to Derek who stated he contained all space and was a single point in space and that he was Undimensioned."

 

[Tago238]

Please look at the video, I'm sorry for getting admittedly quite rude and toxic but I've just been gettig bored of this seemingly extremely cyclical process with little to no compromise.. Your definition of the fallacy of equivocation seems to be a misinterpretation of a single definition provided by this wiki and wikpedia, it's not that important but at least on that one topic I am fairly sure that I am right.

I do know what the definition of elimination is, funnily enough. But when it comes to basic definitions such as what "essence" is, we use real world definitions as a bvaseline unless directly contradicted. Otherwise when someone said they destroyed a building, how are we supposed to know that the building they are referring to is actually a building as we wold define it? The reason why "Platonic" concepts aren't neccessairly said to follow real world definitions is because it is proven in fiction to be inconsistent and so we have a standards page on it. This does not apply to essences. There are different types of nonphysical essences we CAN have, including the mind, the soul, the concept, life energy, etc. If someone doesn't have one of those then it doesn't make a difference to the word universally, just that their essence doesn't include one of those things- neither does them having only one refute the categorisations of others as tyes of essence. Yes, we are eliminating the soul being a type of essence for Janet, but it can still be a type of essence for others and there lies no evidence you have shown to disprove that.


I did mean that the last door affects souls. The term "erasure" (unlike essence) is directly refuted to aply here since it doesn't annihalate them, just manipulates their essences. Just getting that out of the way since I hope we don't start calling the door existence erasure

 

[Antvasima]

What are the summarised conclusions here?

 

[Tago238]

We don't seem to have gotten anywhere conclusive

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is not good then.

 

[Tago238]

Yep, it's also not good when we are at an impasse concerning if Wikipedia apparently being greater evidence than Khan academy (even though Wikipedia backs up my definition past the first paragraph), as an example of how agreements seem impossible to reach

 

[Tago238]

About the Janet thing, Janet still showed off about being able to contain 4 humans, which if it contained all of reality would have a few more humans in. Secondly, I'm fairly sure Janet has taken measures to ensure the humans safety, and not helping them get to their correct destinations would have been something risking there life constantly. The void really can't be considered to be everywhere.

 

[Udlmaster]

About the Janet thing, Janet still showed off about being able to contain 4 humans, which if it contained all of reality would have a few more humans in. Secondly, I'm fairly sure Janet has taken measures to ensure the humans safety, and not helping them get to their correct destinations would have been something risking there life constantly. The void really can't be considered to be everywhere.

Again, the Void wasn't containing 4 Humans, it was containing 4 Janets directly within it.

There's a difference with the Void being everywhere and the Void containing everything.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask the active and experienced members listed in The Good Place verse page to comment here, and also ask a few VS Battles Staff members as well, preferably discussion moderators.