Goku's power reaches the Kaioshin Realm

[Ednaxel2]

This is a continuation of this dis-continued thread:

SSJ3 Goku 4-B/4-A Justification Change

I read on SSJ3 Goku's profile that his 4-A rating is currently explained with: Comparable to Anime Kid Buu, who gradually obliterated entire galaxies) I believe this should be replaced with his own 4-A feat that he has, which would be cited before scaling. The Feat After Goku transforms...

vsbattles.com

Though I am not proposing for this to be an AP feat, more specifically a range and speed feat

This will also only temporarily be in the calc forum, after the calc for this feat has been fully addressed we can move this onto the regular CRTs, though here we can still discuss on the feat itself.

1. The Feat Itself​

After Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan 3, a large explosive aura surrounds him that pushes back Buu and Babidi (this happens in the Toei anime as well)

In the next two pages it's revealed by Kibito that Super Saiyan 3's power reached the Kaioshin Realm they're in

と…とても信じられん…こ…この聖域にまでパワーがとどくなんて
I can't believe the power reached this sacred region

This is really impressive as it showcased how Goku's power from transforming can reach whole other worlds from Earth in just a short amount of time, making this feat blatantly Massively FTL+ in speed and big in range.

2. This is a regular physical force, not ki (kinda)​

It's verbatim stated to be Goku's power that reached the Kaioshin Realm, not ki. These are not one of the same thing as many times throughout the manga there is a distinction made between the two.

Herms himself translated how in DB, パワー (power) is an explicitly distinguished stat from 気 (Ki)

ここまで気の圧力がとどいていてくるなんて
The force of his Ki is reaching this far

Other feats we see in the series have this happen too, like when Jiren powers up it's the force caused from his aura that reaches everyone in the stadium

Here power is used to describe the shockwave generated from Goku's movement

And many more examples listed in the previous thread:

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P14.3 Context: after fighting merged Piccolo for a long time No.17: “Heh. Even if our power is on par, it looks like a gap is starting to open up between our stamina…My energy is infinite, and never falls…”

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4 Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time. Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!” [ ] Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

Chapter: 431 (DBZ 237), P13.5-7, P14.2-6 Context: taking the punch machine preliminaries test Kuririn: “Hey, don’t put too much power into it! You’ll break the machine.” No.18: “I know.” she hits it Referee guy: “Se-se-se-774!? I-I’m sorry, it seems to be malfunctioning! Wait a minute.”

Chapter: 421 (DBZ 227), P12.3 Context: talking about the ‘golden warrior’ Random guy: “He had absolutely incredible speed and power…! He knocked over the fleeing robbers’ car from a distance with a…what would you call it?...It looked like a kiai…”

Chapter: 371 (DBZ 177), P6.4 No.16: “According to my calculations, my power is about equal to Cell’s.”

Chapter: 373 (DBZ 179), P5.4, P6.1, P8.3 Cell: “Even I’m surprised at this magnificent speed…Obviously this is thanks to absorbing No.17…I wonder what my power’s like? [he blasts No.16] Hoh…Seems that’s gone up quite a bit too…”

Chapter: 411 (DBZ 217), P8.1 Context: after Cell bulks up Trunks: “He’s using a transformation that’s too concerned with power, so his speed can’t keep up…Cell himself is making the same mistake he pointed out to me…! He’s really lost it…”

Chapter: 414 (DBZ 220), P14.2 Context: after getting hit by Cell’s attack while saving Vegeta Gohan: “Cell’s power has gone up more than I thought…”

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P8.3 Cell: “I’ll keep absorbing human life energy unnoticed, and steadily increase my power. And once I’ve greatly exceeded the power of No.17 and No.18, I’ll force them to merge with me…!”

Chapter: 367 (DBZ 173), P14.3-5 Cell: “This fierce ki belongs to Piccolo, now that he’s merged with God...! And the only opponents who he’d fight with this much power are…No.17 and No.18! I’ve found you! What good timing! I’ll be there soon! Just you wait! My power already surpasses yours!”

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P2.3 Trunks: “3 years from this current era, on May 12th around 10:00 AM, a terrifying pair will appear on an island 9 kilometers to the southwest of South City…Monsters with tremendous power unlike anything in this world…”

Though this feat is kinda ki related. The feat is performed via SS3 Goku's explosive ki, many times before we see that explosive aura can cause vibrations that destroy/affect the area around the user

It's also shown to be able to cause powerful gusts of wind

This means Goku can accomplish this feat via vibrations/force that comes from his aura, a sort of chain reaction if you will. Similar to how vibrations or shockwaves can be the result of a regular explosion

3. Why not Attack Potency?​

The original thread that first introduced this feat proposed for this to be 4-A due to it reaching the Kaioshin Realm. An issue with this is that it did not show or imply any affect from this feat, nothing about Goku's power shaking anything or threatening anything within it's distance except for Earth, not even Gohan initially noticed it affecting the Kaioshin Realm

It's (again...) similar to an explosion yield, how it gets weaker the further it is from the centre, so while Earth can feel it shaking, those away from the center are barely affected

4. Calculation​

Here is the calculation of the feat:

Goku's power reaches the Kaiōshin Realm

vsbattles.fandom.com

Not much to elaborate here, it's as simple as it can be. Since DBZ is a big verse more calc members just need to go over it but it already has the approval of one calc member currently.

5. Conclusion​

From what I've detailed before this is a chain reaction-like feat via aura, so for the profiles it should be "Massively FTL+ and Universal via shockwaves from aura (17.89856 quadrillion c/At least 17.89856 quadrillion c/At least 17.89856 quadrillion c. The vibrations from his aura can reach the Kaioshin Realm from Earth/Comparable to/Superior to Super Saiyan 3 Goku)"

This applies to:​

DBZ Manga:
Super Saiyan 3 Goku, all versions of Buu (Even the weakest Buus are comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku), Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-RoSaT; currently accepted as being above SS3 Goku), Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT; superior to himself before), Vegito (Superior to SS3 Goku)

DBS Anime and Manga:
bog Vegeta (Surpassed a stronger SS3 Goku)

DBS Manga only:
Pretty much all the current profiles except for Gas and Granola in their first keys and Bardock

Note: Toei is already far above this feat by the time of the Other World Tournament Saga in terms of speed, but for range it should still be applied but just for Goku and Janemba's first key. The DBS anime at the start also surpasses this easily. Anyone who has Low Multiversal Range shall not have this applied in that section

 

[Hasty12345]

Isn't the Kaioshin realm in another spacetime to the world of the living?

 

[Ednaxel2]

Isn't the Kaioshin realm in another spacetime to the world of the living?

In another thread this is being removed

 

[Hasty12345]

In another thread this is being removed

Well Goku's power physically travelling between the "spacetimes" would contradict them being separate spacetimes.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Well Goku's power physically travelling between the "spacetimes" would contradict them being separate spacetimes.

Interdimensional range

 

[Damage3245]

I disagree with this being a speed value that can be indexed on their pages. This isn't part of their combat speed, it isn't an attack so it isn't attack speed. None of their other attacks are implied to be this fast.

This just doesn't seem worth adding to me.

 

[Hasty12345]

Interdimensional range

You'd need to prove that to be the case:

Q: What is the Tier for destroying or creating several timelines?​

A: As the Tiering System specifies, destroying or creating multiple timelines or space-time continuums is usually ranked between 2-C and 2-A, depending on the number of timelines involved.
However, there are two edge cases, which require particular considerations.

First, note that in our terms a universe, and hence also space-time continuums and timelines, always includes all of the three dimensional space that can be reached from it. That is to say, any place that can theoretically be reached via regular three-dimensional movement alone (e.g. via spaceflight) would be considered as part of the same universe, and hence timeline, regardless of whether the fiction considers it as such. Traveling from one universe to another should only by possible via portals, higher-dimensional movement, teleportation or other unusual means of transportation.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Well Goku's power physically travelling between the "spacetimes" would contradict them being separate spacetimes.

Cool, Kaioshin Realm being a space-time is already getting rejected in another thread as I've said before

 

[Hasty12345]

Cool, Kaioshin Realm being a space-time is already getting rejected in another thread as I've said before

Ok, well I guess I'll link this thread to support the argument

 

[Killerdrone123]

You'd need to prove that to be the case:

Q: What is the Tier for destroying or creating several timelines?​

A: As the Tiering System specifies, destroying or creating multiple timelines or space-time continuums is usually ranked between 2-C and 2-A, depending on the number of timelines involved.
However, there are two edge cases, which require particular considerations.

First, note that in our terms a universe, and hence also space-time continuums and timelines, always includes all of the three dimensional space that can be reached from it. That is to say, any place that can theoretically be reached via regular three-dimensional movement alone (e.g. via spaceflight) would be considered as part of the same universe, and hence timeline, regardless of whether the fiction considers it as such. Traveling from one universe to another should only by possible via portals, higher-dimensional movement, teleportation or other unusual means of transportation.

Hasty Goku is capable of breaking holes in separate space times via his power alone via gotenks vice shout the op is arguing that it is raw power obviously they are capable of passing through space time via it

 

[TiltedFN]

Cool, Kaioshin Realm being a space-time is already getting rejected in another thread as I've said before

its not

 

[Ednaxel2]

Ok, well I guess I'll link this thread to support the argument

Cool

I disagree with this being a speed value that can be indexed on their pages. This isn't part of their combat speed, it isn't an attack so it isn't attack speed. None of their other attacks are implied to be this fast.

It can be a form of attack speed. Vibrations/Aura is used sometimes for attacks like here, where Vegeta transforming into SSBE causes a shockwave that blows away Toppo

And even in the very feat itself, where Buu and Babidi are pushed back from it

It's not something major but still somewhat useful at the very least

 

[Ednaxel2]

Should've said something like "...attack speed via shockwaves from aura expansion"

 

[Ednaxel2]

The more I think about it, this can also just be regular force generated from aura, so it could be regular speed

 

[omegabronic]

Hasty Goku is capable of breaking holes in separate space times via his power alone via gotenks vice shout the op is arguing that it is raw power obviously they are capable of passing through space time via it

Not this Goku at this point in time, he is severely inferior to base Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks, who are the baseline for this aplication of Ki manipulation

 

[omegabronic]

Should've said something like "...attack speed via shockwaves from aura expansion"

Considering how majin buu and babidi are barely affected by it in terms of damage......it should also read "far lower" somewhere in the AP descrioption for it if implemented

 

[Killerdrone123]

Not this Goku at this point in time, he is severely inferior to base Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks, who are the baseline for this aplication of Ki manipulation

What is the proof that he is inferior to them cause Goku and super buu didn't faced off each other Goku didn't get any zenkai boost before that

 

[omegabronic]

What is the proof that he is inferior to them cause Goku and super buu didn't faced off each other

Goku himself saying as such when he and vegeta separated the others from inside buu

Goku didn't get any zenkai boost before that

Yeah..........?

 

[Ednaxel2]

Considering how majin buu and babidi are barely affected by it in terms of damage......it should also read "far lower" somewhere in the AP descrioption for it if implemented

It's not a direct attack like the kamehameha, the energy spreads out

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

The place is spatially separated. it's not speed, just range.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

This is a continuation of this dis-continued thread:

SSJ3 Goku 4-B/4-A Justification Change

I read on SSJ3 Goku's profile that his 4-A rating is currently explained with: Comparable to Anime Kid Buu, who gradually obliterated entire galaxies) I believe this should be replaced with his own 4-A feat that he has, which would be cited before scaling. The Feat After Goku transforms...

vsbattles.com

Though I am not proposing for this to be an AP feat, more specifically a range and speed feat

This will also only temporarily be in the calc forum, after the calc for this feat has been fully addressed we can move this onto the regular CRTs, though here we can still discuss on the feat itself.

1. The Feat Itself​

After Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan 3, a large explosive aura surrounds him that pushes back Buu and Babidi (this happens in the Toei anime as well)

In the next two pages it's revealed by Kibito that Super Saiyan 3's power reached the Kaioshin Realm they're in

This is really impressive as it showcased how Goku's power from transforming can reach whole other worlds from Earth in just a short amount of time, making this feat blatantly Massively FTL+ in speed and big in range.

2. This is a regular physical force, not ki (kinda)​

It's verbatim stated to be Goku's power that reached the Kaioshin Realm, not ki. These are not one of the same thing as many times throughout the manga there is a distinction made between the two.

Herms himself translated how in DB, パワー (power) is an explicitly distinguished stat from 気 (Ki)



Other feats we see in the series have this happen too, like when Jiren powers up it's the force caused from his aura that reaches everyone in the stadium

Here power is used to describe the shockwave generated from Goku's movement

And many more examples listed in the previous thread:












Though this feat is kinda ki related. The feat is performed via SS3 Goku's explosive ki, many times before we see that explosive aura can cause vibrations that destroy/affect the area around the user

It's also shown to be able to cause powerful gusts of wind

This means Goku can accomplish this feat via vibrations/force that comes from his aura, a sort of chain reaction if you will. Similar to how vibrations or shockwaves can be the result of a regular explosion

3. Why not Attack Potency?​

The original thread that first introduced this feat proposed for this to be 4-A due to it reaching the Kaioshin Realm. An issue with this is that it did not show or imply any affect from this feat, nothing about Goku's power shaking anything or threatening anything within it's distance except for Earth, not even Gohan initially noticed it affecting the Kaioshin Realm

It's (again...) similar to an explosion yield, how it gets weaker the further it is from the centre, so while Earth can feel it shaking, those away from the center are barely affected

4. Calculation​

Here is the calculation of the feat:

Goku's power reaches the Kaiōshin Realm

vsbattles.fandom.com

Not much to elaborate here, it's as simple as it can be. Since DBZ is a big verse more calc members just need to go over it but it already has the approval of one calc member currently.

5. Conclusion​

From what I've detailed before this is a chain reaction-like feat via aura, so for the profiles it should be "Massively FTL+ and Universal via shockwaves from aura (17.89856 quadrillion c/At least 17.89856 quadrillion c/At least 17.89856 quadrillion c. The vibrations from his aura can reach the Kaioshin Realm from Earth/Comparable to/Superior to Super Saiyan 3 Goku)"

This applies to:​

DBZ Manga:
Super Saiyan 3 Goku, all versions of Buu (Even the weakest Buus are comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku), Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-RoSaT; currently accepted as being above SS3 Goku), Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT; superior to himself before), Vegito (Superior to SS3 Goku)

DBS Anime and Manga:
bog Vegeta (Surpassed a stronger SS3 Goku)

DBS Manga only:
Pretty much all the current profiles except for Gas and Granola in their first keys and Bardock

Note: Toei is already far above this feat by the time of the Other World Tournament Saga in terms of speed, but for range it should still be applied but just for Goku and Janemba's first key. The DBS anime at the start also surpasses this easily. Anyone who has Low Multiversal Range shall not have this applied in that section

I already told ednaxel that this feat seems valid regarding UES which DB does qualify for so I'm in agreement.

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

The place is spatially separated. it's not speed, just range.

Oh crap you're right. I revoke my agreement for speed then and would happily agree for a range upgrade.

 

[Hasty12345]

why is it not a speed upgrade for crossing the distance of the universe? What is stopping you from arguing for both physical separation and the aura covering the distance of the physical universe?

 

[omegabronic]

why is it not a speed upgrade for crossing the distance of the universe? What is stopping you from arguing for both physical separation and the aura covering the distance of the physical universe?

Spatial separation, it doesn't need to cross the entire universe to reach it, in fact, merely reaching the end of the universe wouldn't help, and......if you can argue that second point.....ig it could be valid?

 

[Hasty12345]

Spatial separation, it doesn't need to cross the entire universe to reach it, in fact, merely reaching the end of the universe wouldn't help, and......if you can argue that second point.....ig it could be valid?

Well at this point in time, Goku doesn't scale to the Buu that performs the dimensional travel feat iirc, so it would have to travel the distance of the universe to reach the kaioshin realm would it not?

 

[Ednaxel2]

and......if you can argue that second point.....ig it could be valid?

I mean he doesn't TRY get his energy into the Kaioshin Realm, it wasn't something he aimed to do and it just so happened to've reached it

It could just be that it crossed through the whole universe, go though the border between the universe and kaioshin realm, and reached there

Idk if standards allow this tho

 

[Hasty12345]

I mean he doesn't TRY get his energy into the Kaioshin Realm, it wasn't something he aimed to do and it just so happened to've reached it

It could just be that it crossed through the whole universe, go though the border between the universe and kaioshin realm, and reached there

Idk if standards allow this tho

if the Kaioshin realm is outside the spinning top, and the aura physically travelled the universe (which there's no evidence of any sort of dimensional travel), I don't see how this isn't a valid speed feat personally.

 

[omegabronic]

if the Kaioshin realm is outside the spinning top, and the aura physically travelled the universe (which there's no evidence of any sort of dimensional travel), I don't see how this isn't a valid speed feat personally.

I mean, if you argue that it is spining physically outside then it wouldn't be another dimension, iirc it is said to be one in the manga itself at some point

 

[Huesito88]

if the Kaioshin realm is outside the spinning top, and the aura physically travelled the universe (which there's no evidence of any sort of dimensional travel), I don't see how this isn't a valid speed feat personally.

We actually have It as both for the Beerus vs Goku Universal Shockwaves that also "traveled" over there, if I recall correctly.

 

[Ednaxel2]

We actually have It as both for the Beerus vs Goku Universal Shockwaves that also "traveled" over there, if I recall correctly.

Not shockwaves but Goku and Beerus' energy ball, to quote from the blog that addresses the feat (not the updated calculation)

The explosion from Beerus and Goku's energy sphere was going to engulf and destroy U7, even all the way out to the Kaioshin realm, in mere moments upon it's detonation. This is implied because the explosion is seen as an immanent threat to the Universe, even on the Kai world, and the kais and Whis thought the light was the end of the Universe at that moment as it engulfed it, as they were surprised and perplexed that everything was intact after it passed.

But same thing

 

[Jaakor48]

Ssj3 Goku's feat isn't the same as what Gotenks or buu did, the latter straight up destroyed the space-time boundary between the neighbouring dimensions which allowed them to physically cross

Goku's was merely interdimensional range via his aura

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Herms himself translated how in DB, パワー (power) is an explicitly distinguished stat from 気 (Ki)

Super Exciting Guide.

Jiren's Ki exploded and expanded outward.

Here power is used to describe the shockwave generated from Goku's movement

[A list of quotes that largely serve zero purpose.]

Which proves?

This means Goku can accomplish this feat via vibrations/force that comes from his aura, a sort of chain reaction if you will. Similar to how vibrations or shockwaves can be the result of a regular explosion

How is that a speed feat, then? These, uh, vibration speeds aren't even consistent.
Stronger characters have powered up and have barely affected past five feet of themselves.

3. Why not Attack Potency?​

The original thread that first introduced this feat proposed for this to be 4-A due to it reaching the Kaioshin Realm. An issue with this is that it did not show or imply any affect from this feat, nothing about Goku's power shaking anything or threatening anything within it's distance except for Earth, not even Gohan initially noticed it affecting the Kaioshin Realm

Plot-Induced Stupidity, perhaps? Or, AoE Fallacy, rather?

It's (again...) similar to an explosion yield, how it gets weaker the further it is from the centre, so while Earth can feel it shaking, those away from the center are barely affected

Inverse square law.
C'mon, we all know the Cell calculation.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

i was only concerned about the piccolo thing tbh i really like that fight

 

[Ednaxel2]

Super Exciting Guide.

Mb on these two, should've linked the original source and should've re-check the fight instead of going off a pic

Inverse square law.
C'mon, we all know the Cell calculation.

yes I was referring to that, sorry if I caused confusion

Jiren's Ki exploded and expanded outward.

Only around the arena, no aura goes anywhere near the others in the stadium, and they make the distinction of it being the force of Jiren's aura

How is that a speed feat, then? These, uh, vibration speeds aren't even consistent.
Stronger characters have powered up and have barely affected past five feet of themselves.

Can't that just be attributed to the same way we deal with AP? Where a character's DC is not always presented in their AP? This could just be where characters can perform the same speed within a smaller range

I've also mentioned before how this could be just the force of the aura itself but still thinking about whether that makes more sense or not