Goku's Low 2-C justification.

[ByAsura]

@Jobbo

Already explained this, firstly he did get stomped as blue, Jiren powered up, it's obvious, especially since X20 also Got Stomped. Jiren's eye power is comparable to his normal energy, it's not like 20x greater, the spirit bomb and hit fight prove that.

Goku had also powered up.

 

[Akreious]

Again, Goku's first encounter with Jiren was basically Jiren literally toying with him. No threat at all, none. No care. Jiren could've literally stood there and nothing would happen if he seriously wanted to now that we know how much power he can really output. You're taking the first encounters too much of an anti-feat; Jiren literally could've stood there and timed-out all the other contestants in the final few minutes with a huge aura burst. No initial UIO Goku would occur from Jiren's fight, and no UIO 3rd time or MUI. Here's another analogy; a bunch of fans are trying to kill me purely with their wind. The strongest fan (Goku) is a hand-fan powered by the average Joe. I can literally stand there, and nothing would happen to me.


That's not how it works. If Jiren is so far ahead of them as you're implying, he would've completely and utterly bodied Goku like he did with first encounter (This Jiren is much more serious FYI). And yeah, Jiren was heavily surpressed. Definitely not as Surpressed as his first encounter (As in, no care at all).

 

[Jobbo]

@Jobbo
Already explained this, firstly he did get stomped as blue, Jiren powered up, it's obvious, especially since X20 also Got Stomped. Jiren's eye power is comparable to his normal energy, it's not like 20x greater, the spirit bomb and hit fight prove that.

Goku had also powered up.

Goku didn't get stomped as SSB, he only got wrecked once he started using Kaioken x20. Also, his performance didn't improve at all despite activating Kaioken x20 repeatedly in bursts which means Jiren was using over 20x Goku's power the whole time, yet was trading blows with regular SSB Goku.

So SSBKKx20 fighting a powered up Jiren doesn't mean he's at his level, as Jiren's power could very well have been enough to take out an SSBKKx400 Goku.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, no, just no, Blue got stomped, he literally grabbed his head and tossed him out of the arena. Again, Jiren was suppressed, characters can power up at FTE speeds.

He was at similar levels, you can't fight a being 20x stronger in DB, the fight Between Base Goku and 50% Fireza prove that, as does the fight with x3 Goku vs Vegeta. Yeah, maybe a FP Jiren, but Jiren showing just a true hint of his power couldn't.

 

[Akreious]

This is starting to be kind of ridiculous. According to the topic sentence, you think that SSB Kaiokenx20 Goku is only comparable to first UIO Goku. This isn't true at all. Initial UIO Goku never once caused Jiren to show a glimpse of his power... ever. Goku got overwhelmed by a serious Jiren sure, but that's a Jiren actually trying. and Goku still held up somewhat competently; at least not getting stomped. That alone implies SSBKKx20 Goku is superior than UIO Goku case closed. And even if you take the fact that the final punch that launched Jiren to the wall was a combined effort, Vegeta and Goku's individual punches that Jiren couldn't dodge/block still visibly affected him. Unless you're telling me that Jiren lowered the power level of his face or something, I'm not buying it.

 

[Jobbo]

Ok, no, just no, Blue got stomped, he literally grabbed his head and tossed him out of the arena. Again, Jiren was suppressed, characters can power up at FTE speeds.
He was at similar levels, you can't fight a being 20x stronger in DB, the fight Between Base Goku and 50% Fireza prove that, as does the fight with x3 Goku vs Vegeta. Yeah, maybe a FP Jiren, but Jiren showing just a true hint of his power couldn't.

That happened after Goku started using Kaioken.


Also, Jiren was definitely putting out KKx20+ levels of power considering how shocked Beerus was when he felt his ki. Beerus wouldn't be impressed at all if Jiren was only putting out SSB Goku level power.

 

[ByAsura]

No it didn't.

Ok, now that's just ridiculous, Goku is nowhere near his Kaiokenx20 level as Blue, we even see this in his second round against Jiren.

Jiren's energy shocked Beerus here, and SS2 shook his head with a kick.

 

[Jobbo]

No it didn't.
Ok, now that's just ridiculous, Goku is nowhere near his Kaiokenx20 level as Blue, we even see this in his second round against Jiren.

Look closely, he used Kaioken at 1:45.


Also, that's my point. Goku is nowhere close to Kaioken x20, yet he was able to trade blows with Jiren. Therefore SSBE Vegeta and Post-UIO Goku trading blows with him doesn't mean much either.


@Akreious

That isn't a fair comparison, UIO Goku had a stamina limit and was fighting Jiren alone. If his stamina hadn't run out he would likely be able to last a few minutes against a powered up Jiren judging by the fact that Jiren flared his aura to block his final attack.

 

[ByAsura]

@Joobo

That's totally ignoring the point, he was stomped terribly as SSB is the point. Also we don't know the multiplier, could be 2 even.

A suppressed JIREN. Also that proves my point that you can't fight a character 20x stronger.

 

[Jobbo]

@Joobo
That's totally ignoring the point, he was stomped terribly as SSB is the point. Also we don't know the multiplier, could be 2 even.

A suppressed JIREN.

Jiren's level of suppression doesn't matter. What matters is that SSB Goku was performing well against a level that could stomp his Kaioken.

 

[Jobbo]

And by performing well, I mean not getting destroyed immeidately just so we're clear. He withstood some blows and landed a few mostly ineffective blows.

 

[ByAsura]

You misunderstand, i was saying Jiren was suppressed against Blue, and powered up against x20.

Ok, again, ridiculous, you are suggesting a 20x multiplier is less than a base. And again, this is contradicted.

 

[Jobbo]

You misunderstand, i was saying Jiren was suppressed against Blue, and powered up against x20.
Ok, again, ridiculous, you are suggesting a 20x multiplier is less than a base.

I'm suggesting Jiren wasn't trying to obliterate SSB Goku, so despite using a massive amount of power he was restraining his attacks to Goku's level.

 

[Akreious]

Goku's full attack got blocked by Jiren's palm. Jiren got knocked back and visibly was hurt by Goku and Vegeta's attacks. Huge difference here. That last punch was Goku's last full-powered punch to try and end it; it didn't work.


SSB Goku at the time caused Jiren to show a true glimpse of his power. AKA already superior to first UIO Goku, not comparable or only slightly higher. SSB Kaiokenx20 is 20x (Or at least superior) to that. I don't get why you keep arguing against us on this. Okay, here's a power scaling chart.

Jiren (Next Power-Up) > Goku and Vegeta (Max Power) >= Jiren (Further Power-Up) > SSB Goku >=< Jiren (True Glimpse of power) > Casual Jiren > UIO Goku.

Nothing about that power scaling chart implies a "Comparable" rating.

 

[ByAsura]

@jobbo And you are applying the same logic to him vs x20 kaioken and limit breaker vegeta yes?

 

[Jobbo]

Since when is regular SSB Goku above a hint of Jiren's true power? That's the level he used against SSBE Vegeta and Kaioken x20 Goku.

 

[Golden_Void]

Goku gets stronger than his previous usages of UIO every time he regains stamina after the form.

1st UIO was triggered by the spirit bomb

Kale manhandled SSB Goku, SSJ2-3/SSG Goku destroyed both a far stronger Kale and Caulifla

Kefla was stated to be stronger than the spirit bomb and got rekt by the 2nd UIO, Goku in SSB could also fight her (until he got his clock cleaned)

SSB KK Goku was able to keep up with Jiren, despite the only time he ever fought Jiren in SSB was pre- UIO 1, and Goku got rekt

Jiren has only been showing fractions of his power until episode 130 so that argument doesn't matter.

 

[Jobbo]

I know he gets stronger each time he breaks his limits, what I'm asking about is why he's considered equal to UIO's second trigger.

Also, Jiren was using his full power in 129. The power he showed in 130 was beyond his normal limits.

 

[Grimreaperofjustice]

^ simply because of his preformance against a more serious jiren in terms to a casual who is => kefla

 

[Golden_Void]

Jiren wasn't using his full power in 129, which is why he was shirt-busting in 130. And his limits increase each time they're broken, MUI isn't above a "normal" range.

And he's considered comparable to trigger 2 because each time he breaks his limits, he needs to get much stronger than last time to break his next limit, which is why he is logically stronger after every UI, otherwise he'd just need to reach the same level over and over again, and it wouldn't explain how he's getting stronger. If anything he should be stronger than UIO 2.

Example:

SSBKK Goku and SSBKK + Spirit Bomb Goku both got stomped

UIO 1 did nothing

UIO 2 destroyed her, SSJ Kefla was compared to the spirit bomb, which SSB Goku fought against before he got knocked out

Post UIO 2- Goku can fight with a stronger Jiren in both SSB and SSB + KK, can take hits from him in base

 

[Jobbo]

At the beginning of 130 U1's Kai says Jiren is at full power. Jiren broke his limits when he blew his shirt off.

And according to that, Base Goku should be Low 2-C as well since according to him Jiren's attacks are the hardest he's ever faced.

 

[ByAsura]

Jiren did break his limits, Vegeta and Gohan state he has accessed his hidden power due to remembering his childhood trauma when getting cornered by goku.

 

[Golden_Void]

Yeah, 129. But even then he was beating UIO Goku until he began to master the form.

 

[Aeyu]

I agree with UMR. We've already gone over this several times before, and explaining it over and over is exasperating.

 

[ByAsura]

Should this be closed now since pretty much everyone doesn't agree?

 

[Aeyu]

Yeah. I'll close it. Perhaps a discussion rule should be implemented to prevent these sorts of conversations in the future?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I believe it should. My opinion, though.

 

[Aeyu]

To the closing or the discussion rule implementation?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Both.

 

[Golden_Void]

Eh, don't really see the need to make a rule so hastily, though this can be closed. :^)

 

[Aeyu]

Well, we'll need more input about the discussion rule implementation. Maybe one of us could leave a message on Antvasima's wall?

 

[Aeyu]

And okay. I'll close it.