Goku's AP in Early DBZ.

[Dark649]

How so? What suggests that the Goku out of the spirit room is High 4-C?

I was referring to his strongest form aka Mastered Super Saiyan.

 

[FTW395]

I was referring to his strongest form aka Mastered Super Saiyan.

From what I understand you're saying Mastered Super Saiyan Goku is 4-B, what are you basing that off on?

 

[Dark649]

From what I understand you're saying Mastered Super Saiyan Goku is 4-B, what are you basing that off on?

Simple, even with little logic you should understand the the SS Form is inferior to the strongest Kaioken, which means that the jump leads Goku to this tier, don't ask me any more questions.

 

[AquaWaifu]

There needs to be a feat or statement to scale to, yes. That's how our site works. We don't make random jumps because multipliers. Heck, another example, Mario isn't 4-B despite having 150 of a bunch of High 4-C Power Stars, which would easily push him into 4-B.

that and nothing about his power is shown to change whether he has zero or all of them

 

[PaChi2]

How in the world would anyone jump to 4-B from High 4-C if the jump is x1530 times? what happened there? I dont think applying kaioken as many times as you like you'd reach that high lol

 

[Therefir]

Yeah I don't understand what Dark649 is trying to say.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Backwards scaling from Cell, then upwards scaling from Kaio Ken. And yes, I do see how ridiculous that is. It's supposed to be ridiculous.

 

[PaChi2]

Backwards scaling from Cell, then upwards scaling from Kaio Ken. And yes, I do see how ridiculous that is. It's supposed to be ridiculous.

I cant even understand what you are saying.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

People apparently don't pay attention to our attack potency page, to know that simply being a certain amount of times stronger than their baseline tier, doesn't put them into another tier.

And again the only legitimate multiplier is kaoiken, not power levels or super sayain.

 

[FTW395]

@Dark649 so hostile even though I'm trying to understand your reasoning instead of just calling you out on your bullshit. The only feat we have is Frieza's death ball which is calculated at HIgh 5-A. Now we can stack a x20 times multiplier on it because we have KaioKen and that would give us Low 4-C. From here on out to every jump in power is pretty much unknown, kaioken isn't used anymore either so we can't use a set multiplier anymore.

Secondly the only characters that are rated as 4-B are SPC SSj2 Gohan and everyone who's stronger than them, nobody else even compares to them, so how can you accurately say MSSj Goku is 4-B?

Lastly "you should understand the the SS Form is inferior to the strongest Kaioken" what does that even mean?

 

[Dark649]

What i want to say that Goku has always the Kaioken, but stopped used it [Even the strongest version] to use the Super Saiyan Forms because it was stronger and better, he currently uses it in SSB to boost the power of said form. The Kaioken gets stronger from arc to arc since Goku Base is stronger than before, but uses the SS Forms.

 

[FTW395]

Correct that's obvious, but that doesn't mean much. Ssj2/UnknownAmount = MSsj; SSj1/UnknownAmount = KKx20. We're dividing here by an unknown amount so what supports MSSj being 4-B?

There's also nothing that reliably tells us how strong Base Goku has become compared to previous incarnations. Although it's very unlikely, Base Goku might still be weaker than Frieza saga Kkx20 Goku. And we can use that logic.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Honest question. Would this fall under calc stacking? Given we're taking one calc and stacking multipliers on it. I'm probably being ridiculous right now.

 

[Dark649]

I say yes and i agree with Howard.

 

[Amexim]

We have the Dwarf Star level Vegeta Destroying Feat, right, Cal? That's the justification for Dwarf Star First Form Frieza, and Super Saitama being at that level is downplay, basically. And I don't mean that Goku should be Dwarf Star level against Ginny or anything— this Kaioken application would basically be used to give Goku vs Ginyu a more accurate standing— 5-A, to be more clear. It wouldn't upgrade anyone but the Ginyu force, Gohan, Krillin, and the relevant Vegeta Keys. Everyone else stays the same as they are— as their ratings between Star level and Cell's Solar System strength are mostly estimates and aren't based in multipliers.

 

[Huesito88]

saitama?

 

[Dark649]

It wouldn't upgrade anyone but the Ginyu force, Gohan, Krillin, and the relevant Vegeta Keys.

Which would backward scaling via Guldo and upward scaling by Kaioken Goku.

 

[Amexim]

So, to answer Dark649, no, Yardrat and Spirit Room Goku wouldn't change, because there's no power level to scale from.

Again, the point of my method is to scale characters between BoZ piccolo and up to First, maybe second form Frieza.

 

[Dark649]

At which rating you aim to put the BoZ characters?.

 

[Amexim]

So Mastered Super Saiyan stays at 4-C. No changes there. This exists to fill in the blanks from "At least" planet, to something clear.

 

[PaChi2]

We are not using power levels. By any means.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Cal How is this calc stacking? We are using an in verse stated multiplier here, we know how strong goku is, he scales to first form freeza, so with an inverse multiplier which is stated to multiply all his stats, when using that ability, based on what we know he scales from, we can know how powerful he is when using the ability, it's like 1+1=2, also again has nothing to do with the author intended or whether or not the author knows it would make the character that powerful, we disregard that in the first place, cw flash is stated to be mach 3, yet we rate him as mhs+, author intent means jack.

 

[PaChi2]

I agree with Celestial. this has been discussed so many times its not use asking at this point

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I haven't brought up author intent at all though. I'd be the biggest hypocrite if I said that.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Cal it's what been implied here though, that the author doesn't understand what making a character x times powerful means, or that the author doesn't understand how powerful their characters are, to which i am saying that's irrelevant in the first place.

And also if you disregard multipliers, you have to disregard all statements and only use feats, which is absurd imo.

 

[Dark649]

Base Goku might still be weaker than Frieza saga Kkx20 Goku. And we can use that logic.

Wrong, Base Goku was comparable to Piccolo in Android arc since he trained and fought evenly with him, said Piccolo effortly cut an arm from Doctor Gero, who is Frieza level, so it's oblivious that Base Goku gets also stronger from arc to arc.

If Base Goku there is High 4-C from this upgrade, then he becomes High 4-C+ with SS since it's a stronger form that the Kaioken and it's multipliers, this SS will get dwarfed in power by Cell, who will become 4-B.

 

[Amexim]

Hmm... Basically, Saiyan Saga Z fighters stay where they are, because they're still in Planetary range. They're all at most 3,000, which is 7 times stronger than baseline. Nappa and based Saiyan Saga Goku would be at 8,000, and that's 20 times stronger than baseline. Vegeta at, like, 16,000 is 40 times baseline. 18,000 as him at full is high planet level. Kaio-Ken times 4 Goku is low end large-planet— which is a vast tier of around 20,000x from low-end to high end Dwarf Star. We stop there, because we reached our feat for it, and the multiplier would contradict the fats because it wouldn't give us anywhere near Dwarf Star First Form Frieza.

 

[Dark649]

Which also means 5-A Great Ape Vegeta.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The argument here is that because they drop a number, they get an upgrade despite never showing what'd be required of that number, like stomping someone with it. However, when characters who are so strong that they can kill another with a burp, and blitz them before a though crosses their head, they get an "at least".

Where is the fairness in that?

 

[PaChi2]

"If Base Goku there is High 4-C from this upgrade, then he becomes High 4-C+ with SS since it's a stronger form that the Kaioken and it's multipliers, this SS will get dwarfed in power by Cell, who will become 4-B."

High 4-C has a x1530 jump. I dont see in what you say any implication that goku or cell becomes 4-B before SPC.

 

[PaChi2]

Which also means 5-A Great Ape Vegeta.

And whats wrong with that?

 

[SomebodyData]

Ratings aren't necessarily fair due to the author, just look at Sub-Rel compared to FTL destruction or movement AP feats.

Note how I said due to the author.

 

[Amexim]

That means Ginyu force is at "possibly" or "likely Large planet level".

I feel that this scaling should be used and all ratings given should be categorized as either possibly or likely, considering its gathered from unorthodox and complicated scaling, even if it's numerically a system that would but First Form Frieza at Large Planet— 1,000 times beyond baseline, but nowhere near Dwarf Star.

Proof:

535,000/400= 1,337.5. Meaning the hypothetical Kaio-Ken multiplier from a Goku— who is at least as strong and as fast as Piccolo before the saiyans arrived— going by the moon feat and our Profiles that low-ball Goku to being at least as strong as that—

Kaio-Ken times 1,337.5 would make Goku's stats equal to Frieza's right? Nope. Frieza is Dwarf Star— while this is into Large Planet. This process low-balls too.

 

[Kepekley23]

Sorry guys, I just woke up - what's the fuss all about?

 

[Therefir]

Ginyu force is not large planet level, Goku don't use kaioken x10 against then.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Kaio-Ken

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Amexim Drop the power level argument please, they aren't linear, and we aren't using power levels besides to show that this character is stronger than that character, we don't know how much the difference between them is.

Only legit multiplier is kaoiken.

 

[Therefir]

Also there is a problem, if Goku have a base power of 90,000, with kaioken x10 he is 900,000, that means he is stronger than first form frieza.

 

[Amexim]

I mean, the only thing the power levels play a role in here is going from Goku's to whoever— assuming the same stats— and pretending it's linear. Which it isn't— and doing so gives us low-balls, meaning whatever feats and jumps between the numbers can be put in comfortably because it fits with the scaling. Otherwise there's this ugly gap between Planet to Dwarf Star that we low-ball to air on the side of caution.

 

[SomebodyData]

Which he never had?... @There