-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Goku's AP in Early DBZ.
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
- Status
- 9,738
- 1,523
Ok, Pachi2 i will talk about Frieza in a nutshell:
First Form: Was vastly superior to everyone, until Post Third Zenkai Vegeta came and blocked him, Vegeta then said that with the others he would have won.
Second Form: An enraged Gohan tried to attack him, but did little then Piccolo [Who was killed by Nappa] returned and after absorbing Nail, he manages to match Frieza in his second form, TFS scene mention.
Third Form: Effortless dispatch Piccolo, then Enraged Gohan managed to pressure him. Vegeta needs another Zenkai boost to do something.
Fourth Form: Stomps Fourth Zenkai Boost Vegeta and started at 2.5%. The Post Zenkai Boost Goku, which was much stronger then Vegeta arrives and starts to fight with Frieza, who initially toys with him with no hand. Goku tries to keep up with up with him, then Frieza goes 50%.
50% Frieza: Ends up defeating Kaioken x10 and x20 Goku [The latter hand was slighty bruised by the x20 kamehameha], which left him tired and forced him to use the Spirit Bomb, which badly injured Frieza. SS Goku then proves to be stronger than Kaioken x20 Goku, 50% Frieza and the Spirit Bomb.
100% Frieza: Puts a good fight with SS Goku, uses red version of Krillin Kienzan to pressure him, but ends up slicing himself, Goku then finishes him after he gave a small part of his energy.
Mecha Frieza: Is slighty stronger then before, but SS Trunks [Who will be stomped by 18 and 17] stomps him. Then he would return by reaching the 3-A tier in Final Form, and higher in Golden Form after a few months of training.
First Form: Was vastly superior to everyone, until Post Third Zenkai Vegeta came and blocked him, Vegeta then said that with the others he would have won.
Second Form: An enraged Gohan tried to attack him, but did little then Piccolo [Who was killed by Nappa] returned and after absorbing Nail, he manages to match Frieza in his second form, TFS scene mention.
Third Form: Effortless dispatch Piccolo, then Enraged Gohan managed to pressure him. Vegeta needs another Zenkai boost to do something.
Fourth Form: Stomps Fourth Zenkai Boost Vegeta and started at 2.5%. The Post Zenkai Boost Goku, which was much stronger then Vegeta arrives and starts to fight with Frieza, who initially toys with him with no hand. Goku tries to keep up with up with him, then Frieza goes 50%.
50% Frieza: Ends up defeating Kaioken x10 and x20 Goku [The latter hand was slighty bruised by the x20 kamehameha], which left him tired and forced him to use the Spirit Bomb, which badly injured Frieza. SS Goku then proves to be stronger than Kaioken x20 Goku, 50% Frieza and the Spirit Bomb.
100% Frieza: Puts a good fight with SS Goku, uses red version of Krillin Kienzan to pressure him, but ends up slicing himself, Goku then finishes him after he gave a small part of his energy.
Mecha Frieza: Is slighty stronger then before, but SS Trunks [Who will be stomped by 18 and 17] stomps him. Then he would return by reaching the 3-A tier in Final Form, and higher in Golden Form after a few months of training.
- 14,195
- 2,574
I thought it was 2.5% against Goku initally tho?
- 15,332
- 7,563
KKx20 Goku "matching" 50% Freeza is Daizenshuu-originated bull. In the manga, Goku does almost no better than in KKx10. Even his amped Kamehameha is deflected rather easily.
- 14,195
- 2,574
Pretty sure his hand was badly bruised by the kamehameha.
That said, not sure how this disproves kk multipliers.
That said, not sure how this disproves kk multipliers.
- 15,332
- 7,563
The Daizenshuu is supplemental. It is sometimes reliable, it is sometimes not. It referring to Kid Boo and Goku as the "strongest" [while ignoring Gotenks and Super Boo] should tell you that.
- 15,332
- 7,563
He deflected it.SomebodyData said:
He also escaped Goku's grasp pretty easily.
- 8,427
- 3,144
- Thread starter
- #133
I feel that this thread is slowly becoming derailed.
What is the consensus?
What is the consensus?
- 9,738
- 1,523
It's not derailed i was explaining the Kaioken in the battle with Frieza, the consensus is that if the 5-A upgrade is accepted alongside the db powerlevel/kaioken multiplier scale in general then the verse will get a massive upgrade [Frieza would up at High 4-C or higher], which i disagree to.Warren Valion said:
- 8,427
- 3,144
- Thread starter
- #135
Wow, this is a bigger I thought.Dark649 said:
Thank you.
- 15,332
- 7,563
As I said, Freeza is still considerably above KKx20 Goku. Goku's 20x Kamehameha was deflected by Freeza, and the latter only sustained a bruised hand.
Freeza only using 1% of his power is a DUB-exclusive line.
Freeza only using 1% of his power is a DUB-exclusive line.
- 2,938
- 365
The Kaioken multipliers were already excepted as Legit Cal.
Using them with the power levels might be dubious? If we tried to go from Goku's 8,000 to 3 million, this would mean that, base Goku's stats would be 375 times higher. And, that wouldn't be a problem speed wise, I guess...? But I don't think the difference between Planet and Dwarf Star is 375 times.
If it is, then the scaling works using Power levels, but only if we use Goku's strength as a baseline for it, and going off of that to calculate the percentage. If it doesn't, and the increase is actually exponential or non-linear according to calcs then it might be a low-ball, considering that the actual numbers should mean higher than what we got, due to feats...?
What I mean is-- if 375 as a multiplier of Kaioken doesn't fit to get Dwarf Star, but gets us Large Planet+++ or something, then it's a low-ball from the power level perspective, and that them being non-linear doesn't really matter-- as what we get are lower than what we know is true. If it's higher, than you can disregard this first part.
Another way we can use PLs is by just treating them as Kaioken Multipliers on base Goku's stats from Saiyan Saga-- as the number increases with his stats. True, the stats and the numbers aren't correlated in any other way besides that, but it's the only one we need.
If Goku was able to use the Kaioken x10 in the Saiyan Saga, he would be about the same PL and, therefore, have the same stats as early Namek Saga-- as evidenced by the power levels shown when Bulma was monitoring their fight with the Scouter. Goku shouldn't be weaker than this hypothetical Kaioken that equalizes to his stated power level of 90,000. If we apply those stats in this way, we could get Base Goku's stats in the Namek Saga.
TL
R; Power Levels can be bullshit, but, at best, using the Kaioken and Goku's base stats from the Saiyan Saga against Nappa should get us something of a low-end if the same can be applied up until 150 million against Frieza.
Using them with the power levels might be dubious? If we tried to go from Goku's 8,000 to 3 million, this would mean that, base Goku's stats would be 375 times higher. And, that wouldn't be a problem speed wise, I guess...? But I don't think the difference between Planet and Dwarf Star is 375 times.
If it is, then the scaling works using Power levels, but only if we use Goku's strength as a baseline for it, and going off of that to calculate the percentage. If it doesn't, and the increase is actually exponential or non-linear according to calcs then it might be a low-ball, considering that the actual numbers should mean higher than what we got, due to feats...?
What I mean is-- if 375 as a multiplier of Kaioken doesn't fit to get Dwarf Star, but gets us Large Planet+++ or something, then it's a low-ball from the power level perspective, and that them being non-linear doesn't really matter-- as what we get are lower than what we know is true. If it's higher, than you can disregard this first part.
Another way we can use PLs is by just treating them as Kaioken Multipliers on base Goku's stats from Saiyan Saga-- as the number increases with his stats. True, the stats and the numbers aren't correlated in any other way besides that, but it's the only one we need.
If Goku was able to use the Kaioken x10 in the Saiyan Saga, he would be about the same PL and, therefore, have the same stats as early Namek Saga-- as evidenced by the power levels shown when Bulma was monitoring their fight with the Scouter. Goku shouldn't be weaker than this hypothetical Kaioken that equalizes to his stated power level of 90,000. If we apply those stats in this way, we could get Base Goku's stats in the Namek Saga.
TL
R; Power Levels can be bullshit, but, at best, using the Kaioken and Goku's base stats from the Saiyan Saga against Nappa should get us something of a low-end if the same can be applied up until 150 million against Frieza.
- 2,938
- 365
If you look at the AP ratios, the gap isn't that big.
Check this out
Piccolo's baseline planet at 400 pl, right?
150 million (Super Saiyan Goku's PL, the last and strongest known PL) divided by 400 is 375,000. That means, if we assume power levels are linear* then if we use the AP chart's number of what the Energy requirements necessary for Baseline Planet level is, and multiply it by by 375,000 as a hypothetical Kaioken boost to get to that level, we get...
5.944e24×375000=2.229e30
Meaning SS Goku is Dwarf Star level, right? A low-ball compared to what we got on here. And since that's the highest power level we have, and it's below our listings, using power levels as scaling for higher characters doesn't seem so inconsistent, especially when you realize that the Non-linear nature of power levels is an increase in AP, not a decrease. So them being non-linear would give us higher numbers than what this process gives us, making this a low-ball. Plus, First Form Frieza is Dwarf Star, right? So this is a massive low-ball.
Check this out
Piccolo's baseline planet at 400 pl, right?
150 million (Super Saiyan Goku's PL, the last and strongest known PL) divided by 400 is 375,000. That means, if we assume power levels are linear* then if we use the AP chart's number of what the Energy requirements necessary for Baseline Planet level is, and multiply it by by 375,000 as a hypothetical Kaioken boost to get to that level, we get...
5.944e24×375000=2.229e30
Meaning SS Goku is Dwarf Star level, right? A low-ball compared to what we got on here. And since that's the highest power level we have, and it's below our listings, using power levels as scaling for higher characters doesn't seem so inconsistent, especially when you realize that the Non-linear nature of power levels is an increase in AP, not a decrease. So them being non-linear would give us higher numbers than what this process gives us, making this a low-ball. Plus, First Form Frieza is Dwarf Star, right? So this is a massive low-ball.
- Which, power levels aren't, they have non-linear growth that seems exponential in nature, or something similar to non-linear growth of an exponential similarity-- meaning that this yields a low-ball if anything, unless someone can show a character having a power level of a higher number and being confirmed to be unable to replicate a Feat or scale to a character who's been confirmed to have a lower number, but has replicated higher feats than the character who has been CONFIRMED to be unable to do said feat of a supposedly weaker character. And no, obvious scenarios like Trunks or Goku tricking their scouters by raising their power levels so fast they don't track it don't count. The only way you can debunk this is by showing "A character is confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt to be incapable of manifesting any power in any way in an attempt to replicate B character's AP feats, despite us knowing B character has a higher power level". This doesn't exist, btw.
- 2,938
- 365
InB4 you bring up applying this to retroactive scaling for power levels in Part 1. We can just apply Piccolo's baseline Planet to Goku's stats like on the page to further decrease any inflation, and, we can ignore Power Levels as they relate to part 1 and the Farmer with the Shotgun, as this method doesn't work going backwards and starting that far back-- as it shouldn't. The point was that using this method in this specific way doesn't yield any relevant inconsistencies.
- 16,959
- 4,855
could we try and keep the essay long replies to a minimum please? No offense.
- 2,938
- 365
Basically, as long as we stay away from part 1 and weak humans, we can treat power levels as hypothetical Kaio-Ken multipliers to fill in blanks and get higher ends—- while still being low-balls due to the non-linear and exponential nature of power levels. Meaning 5-A Goku vs Ginny shouldn't be too crazy...
- 40,470
- 12,953
Not without a feat to scale to, we haven't.
- 40,470
- 12,953
^
While 4-B would be a possibility with enough abuse, 4-A isn't
While 4-B would be a possibility with enough abuse, 4-A isn't
- 40,470
- 12,953
There needs to be a feat or statement to scale to, yes. That's how our site works. We don't make random jumps because multipliers. Heck, another example, Mario isn't 4-B despite having 150 of a bunch of High 4-C Power Stars, which would easily push him into 4-B.
- 19,167
- 6,456
This is totally absurd imo, what this means is that to rate any character, we have to have direct on panel feats, yes we treat feats>statements, but this will mean unless it's a feat it doesn't matter.
Author intent is completely irrelevant here, authors can intend for their characters to be a certain tier, but if their feats and statements, contradict that, we will always take the feats and statements, above author intent.
Why should we care whether an author knows how powerful their character is? We don't care in the first place, so why should we now suddenly care that a statement a character has of being x times powerful, isn't what the author intended as they don't understand what that means?
I am sure plenty of authors don't understand for instance how many stars are in a galaxy, yet they have characters destroy galaxies, should we now disregard the feat due to it not being clear that the author mean an entire galaxie with hundreds of billions of stars? No he stated galaxy, so it's a galaxy, no need to over analyze what that the author meant, what the author intends is totally irrelevant, if it's stated a character can multiply their power by x times, they can multiply their power by x times, we don't need to over analyze and see but did the author really mean x times?.
Author intent is completely irrelevant here, authors can intend for their characters to be a certain tier, but if their feats and statements, contradict that, we will always take the feats and statements, above author intent.
Why should we care whether an author knows how powerful their character is? We don't care in the first place, so why should we now suddenly care that a statement a character has of being x times powerful, isn't what the author intended as they don't understand what that means?
I am sure plenty of authors don't understand for instance how many stars are in a galaxy, yet they have characters destroy galaxies, should we now disregard the feat due to it not being clear that the author mean an entire galaxie with hundreds of billions of stars? No he stated galaxy, so it's a galaxy, no need to over analyze what that the author meant, what the author intends is totally irrelevant, if it's stated a character can multiply their power by x times, they can multiply their power by x times, we don't need to over analyze and see but did the author really mean x times?.
- 40,470
- 12,953
I've already said above that I believe that multiplier being used is ridiculous and worse than DB at that aspect.Therefir said:
- Status
Similar threads
