Goku's AP in Early DBZ.

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Agreed with Matt, no idea where High 4-C comes from, they should be Small Star level to Star level.

Also agreed with Goku only being Planet level, the difference for planet level is 47x, there is no feat or kaoiken multiplier that makes goku 47x above planet level.

 

[Therefir]

Also agreed with Goku only being Planet level, the difference for planet level is 47x, there is no feat or kaoiken multiplier that makes goku 47x above planet level.

Piccolo's feat = 69.69 zettatons. Goku Kaioken x4 =278.76 Zettatons. Goku base form after his training is stronger than his kaioken x4 from saiyan saga, plus Kaioken x10 = 2787.6 zettatons or 2.78 yottatons= Baseline 5-A.

Also Goku after his training can use kaioken x10.

 

[Therefir]

And that is super low-balling, because we are assuming that base goku is not stronger than Piccolo, of course this only applies to Goku.

 

[FTW395]

Isn't pretty much everyone up until SPC and SSj2 Low 4-C seeing how after KaioKen we can't really tell exactly how strong they are.

 

[Dark649]

I thought that rating that the staff decided were ok, but now there could be a change of idea since the Kaioken already pushes Goku to a massive level, which is considered higher for the SS ones [Since SS Goku dealt much more damage to Frieza than the Kaioken], i personally want to disgregard Kaioken/SS multipliers and Power levels, but if the staff agrees then the verse will receive a massive upgrade, which i will be against because it will happen that the characters will quickly reach MFTL 4-B in Cell Saga and 4-A MFTL+ in Buu Saga because of the logic that the multipliers breaks the limits of said tiers, which we made a note/discussion rule about it.

I'd also like to say that Frieza first three forms are not High 5-A+, if the + scaling is rejected the ratings would end up at: First Form: High 5-A+. Second Form: Low 4-C. Third Form: At least Low 4-C. Final Form: 4-C. SS Trunks: At least 4-C. Perfect Cell would be: At least High 4-C. Anyway this is my opinion.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

No amount of kaioken or super sayain multipliers will put the canon dbz characters at 4-A, i think that's an exaggeration there, also the only multiplier i agree with using to scale here would be kaioken, and characters shouldn't jump any tiers unless they are extremely close to the end of it, which is utterly impossible in the case of 4-B, since the gap is a trillion times.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It wouldn't be impossible to put them at MFTL via KK though.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

If they can be placed there due to kaioken alone and not due to power levels or super sayain transformations, i wouldn't have an issue with it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I would though, as it's wank, especially considering the best fear in the verse pre-Super is .07c as opposed to 100+c, which is why we shouldn't use all like that.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

If we don't accept legitimate multipliers like kaoiken, what you're saying is we shouldn't accept any multipliers in fiction, which is absurd imo.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Problem is, I am saying that. Dragon Ball isn't even the worst offender in that. The God of High School is.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cal No disrespect or anything, but you are sounding like a feats purist here, that the only legitimate way to rate a character is by feats, and things like multipliers which are stated and explained in story to multiply the characters stats shouldn't be used due to a lack of feats.

It's slippery slope type of logic, i can make the argument then that the greatest feat in canon dbz is freiza destroying planet vegeta, so i guess we should downgrade cell and buu saga characters then as cell being able to destroy being solar system level is just a statement and it never happened, so it's not a feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have to agree with Celestial Pegasus here. I also that think that we are similarly very generous if not more so with Pokémon and I don't constantly fight against it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I mean putting people at MFTL based on a Sub-Relativistic feat is pretty violent in term of stacking multipliers.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Difference between statements and multipliers is that with statements, it doesn't create holes in logic. Cell being solar system level doesn't create holes. Multipliers stacked on to make Goku stronger than Cell is though.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nobody here is MFTL based on a Sub-Relativistic feat. People reach as far as FTL+ based on a Relativistic feat.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Cal Multipliers and statements are the same exact thing, one is just a statement of for example, i can blow up this thing, another is a statement of, i have this ability which makes me x times stronger, if you are disbarring one, you have to do the same with the other.

There are no holes in logic, you are just creating one based on the premise that only feats should be accepted and multipliers shouldn't, which also by your logic extends to all other statements.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I have to agree with Celestial Pegasus here. I also that think that we are similarly very generous if not more so with Pokémon and I don't constantly fight against it.

I've never once argued using multipliers for Pokémon, even though I had several chances to (FTL 100% Zygarde or Low 6-B Hitmontop). Heck, I brought up an instance where I specifically made an illogical decision for Pokémon, making Mewtwo less than 2x faster than Charmeleon.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It doesn't bother me that they're the tiers they're in right now, btw. What does is that topics like this will pop up more..

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

If the reason why multipliers can't be accepted is that they put characters above feats displayed in their series, why should we accept statements at all by that logic?

For example, character a has a feat of destroying a planet, character b who is far stronger, is stated to be able to destroy a solar system, why should we accept character b being capable of solar system busting, when the best "feat" is from character a, which is planet level?

There is no difference between a character being stated to do something, and a character being stated to have an ability that allows them to do something, which in this case is multipling their power, why would we put the statements of destruction, over the statements of multiplication?

 

[Dark649]

High 4-C is very unjustified.

Shi created celestial bodies, which wields this much.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The problem with multipliers is that:

-We use OUR values for the calculation. Authors most likely do not know how strong their characters are nor what the gap is between two tiers.

-It's not as common, but authors can often several underestimate what effect a multiplier would have in a real battle. If you can go 10x mid battle then either the battle wasn't fair before the boost, or it isn't anymore post-boost.

 

[PaChi2]

So, 5-B to 5-A Ginyu fight goku?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Here's an example:

Goku is fighting Frieza, and they're on even terms. Goku uses KKx20, and while Goku has the upper hand, not by too much that it's a stomp. Now where does that leave Frieza? Does he scale to base Goku or KK Goku? Because there should've been a stomp somewhere in there.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We have literally never seen a Kaioshin create anything in the series so far.

Also, have you seen how Kami and Popo create Shenron in the original manga? They make a freaking paper mache model which then comes to life through magic.

I really doubt that Kaioshin expontaneously create stars with raw energy.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I wasn't sure, but if shit like Cal mentioned happens often with said multipliers, then said multipliers aren't valid at all.

 

[Dark649]

We have literally never seen a Kaioshin create anything in the series so far. Also, have you seen how Kami and Popo create Shenron in the original manga? They make a freaking paper mache model which then comes to life through magic.

Bad logic like the multipliers, if he stated that he did that, it happened and is the same thing as SPC being 4-B. That creature that was created from the papermache from the magic of Kami is 5-C and can grant wishes, which was asked many times in the series.

 

[SomebodyData]

That's because Frieza was holding back tho @Cal

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's a hypothetical example. Things like that have happened before, but it wasn't with Frieza. It was with Hit. And Fused Zamasu.

 

[Dark649]

And with Jiren since Goku was stomped as a Full Power SBB + KKx20.

 

[SomebodyData]

Ah I see

That said, Hit had to do with Self-Improvement, and what happened with Fused Zamasu?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Your example doesn't really make sense though.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Dark it was extremely obvious Jiren was holding back.

 

[PaChi2]

Here's an example:

Goku is fighting Frieza, and they're on even terms. Goku uses KKx20, and while Goku has the upper hand, not by too much that it's a stomp. Now where does that leave Frieza? Does he scale to base Goku or KK Goku? Because there should've been a stomp somewhere in there.

Frieza at 50% stomped KK 20 goku. Frieza was very suppressed when his fight with goku started (I dont remember the exact % he started with, tho).

 

[Dark649]

@Dark it was extremely obvious Jiren was holding back.

Obliviously Jiren was massively helding back and stomped Goku Full Power SBB + KKx20. Previously Goku overwhelmed Base Fusion Zamasu with Kaioken.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah, so that shouldn't be an example against multipliers.

That was pretty obviously PIS

 

[Therefir]

It's PIS because Goku previously win a beam struggle against Fusion Zamasu without using Kaioken.

 

[Dark649]

And Vados later stated that a potara fusion gives a massive boost to the fusion, but Fusion Zamasu lost a beam struggle with Trunks and Vegeta, then with Goku.

 

[SomebodyData]

With or without multiplies Fusion Zamasu losing a beam struggle with them (though I'm pretty sure the Trunks and Vegeta one was from cockiness) is PIS.

 

[PaChi2]

What does this have to do with anything here, tho? Like, Jiren and Zamasu in a Namek Saga thread? lol