Goku VS. Laharl

[Dienomite22]

@Therefir

Cool, feel free to do so.

Already explained that Laharl has stat boosts via items that boost resistances, accuracy, defense, attack,speed, health, mp etc.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Oh, and can I please add this fact:

• During Goku/Kefla's fight

• Goku beats down Kefla

Kefla: YOUR ATTACKS ARE WIMPY!

• Goku stares down Kefla for like...2 Real Timed Seconds

Kefla: HERE GOES! SON GOKU!

• Son Goku beats her down with punches that ACTUALLY HURT

Laharl Voters: Goku can't get stronger/faster that fast.

Me: What you see in the Episodes is slowed down to shit. In Real Time, Goku's getting stronger/faster in SECONDS!

 

[Therefir]

That things aren't passive.

 

[Dienomite22]

@AntorusTheBurningThrown

What you are trying to get at exactly.

@Therefir Doesn't need to be.

 

[Therefir]

They need it, Goku's stat amping is already far better since just by fighting he get stronger.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

@AntorusTheBurningThrown
What you are trying to get at exactly.

@Therefir Doesn't need to be.

That Goku gets Stronger/Faster quicker than you think he is.

 

[Therefir]

Also, I want to ask if the standard equipment can be still restricted

 

[Dienomite22]

@Therefir

Goku's isn't instant(has to fight to get stronger, although that is better because it's inate and cooler)

Laharl just needs to use the item and he becomes strong or whatever.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Antorus I don't remember thinking otherwise tbh

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

@Therefir
Goku's isn't instant(has to fight to get stronger, although that is better because it's inate and cooler)

Laharl just needs to use the item and he becomes strong.

And then, he triggers M.U.I Son Goku, who punches Laharl's Item away from him.

 

[Therefir]

In the tournament Goku was getting stronger with each punch, and how does Laharl use those objects? He drinks them?

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

In the tournament Goku was getting stronger with each punch, and how does Laharl use those objects? He drinks them?

Yeah, and in that very same Tournament, Items weren't permitted (Mostly because it was deemed rather unfair).

 

[Dienomite22]

@Antorus Goku won't activate MUI to knock stuff out of Laharl's hand and Goku willfully lets his opponents get stronger and fight at their full power.

@Therefir Idk, in D1 it's basically candy but Idk if it's the same for other titles.

 

[Therefir]

I doubt Goku would let Laharl to eat that, this Goku isn't playing around.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Honestly, I am down for voting for Goku in the future

But the idea of MUI Goku knocking an item out of someones hand just because sounds like a reach to me.

Like, why would he do it? He only is on instinct, so practically blocking, dodging and attacking are his three options.

I doubt he will knock it out of his hand just because.

Also, Goku and Sayains do have reactive evolution, but it is somewhat inconsistent.

Only the recent arc showed it to overcome large tier gaps. And even before this arc, only the Freeza arc showed it to this extent.

I am not saying Goku cant overcome Laharl, but I doubt it would be instantly unless it is life threatning.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Therefir It's candy and that weakness is still on his profile

 

[KinkiestSins]

I doubt Goku would let Laharl to eat that, this Goku isn't playing around.

Why? Those two sentences arent mutually exclusive.

I mean, it is fair to say he could, but I doubt he would.

Considering we have only seen MUI block, dodge and attack.

I doubt he would instinctively know to stop it the first time.

Maybe if the fight lasts long enough, definitely the second time.

I personally think this is an inconclusive point.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I will go with Goku for Fate's reasons.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Honestly, I am down for voting for Goku in the future
But the idea of MUI Goku knocking an item out of someones hand just because sounds like a reach to me.

Like, why would he do it? He only is on instinct, so practically blocking, dodging and attacking are his three options.

I doubt he will knock it out of his hand just because.

Also, Goku and Sayains do have reactive evolution, but it is somewhat inconsistent.

Only the recent arc showed it to overcome large tier gaps. And even before this arc, only the Freeza arc showed it to this extent.

I am not saying Goku cant overcome Laharl, but I doubt it would be instantly unless it is life threatning.

"Why would Goku in M.U.I knock down Laharl's Item"

M.U.I Goku seems to void a LOT of Goku's Personality. Meaning, while he does allow his opponent to get stronger, the fact that he'll allow his Opponent to use an ITEM to get stronger sounds more like a cheap knock off rather than anything else. And judging from how Goku is in M.U.I, he doesn't seem to take chances (See his Omen state vs Kefla).

I think he only allowed Jiren to get to said state cause he had never faced someone like him before, and it was his chance to prove that he was the Strongest Mortal out there.

To M.U.I Goku, Laharl feels more like a Child playing God rather than anything else. Sure, he could have Laharl drink an Item or 2, but I don't think he'll allow Laharl to get stronger than him. And if Laharl does (Attempt) to destroy the Universe, then Goku could just instantly block it (See Goku defending the Stands).

 

[Therefir]

@KinkiestSins I disagree with that, MUI Goku doesn't mess around, he is completely focused on the battle.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Now, i'm not saying Goku would 100% do this. However, M.U.I seems to void a TON of Goku's allowing/dropped guard BS. Meaning, if he knows Laharl's planning something shady (AKA, an Item that could make him strong enough to destroy the Universe with a Punch, or so), then he'll just attack the guy, instantly. That's what makes U.I unique. It's your Body making instinctive Reactions without Delay/Second Thought. It's basically a counter for Goku/Vegeta's mindsets.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

"I am not saying Goku cant overcome Laharl, but I doubt it would be instantly unless it is life threatning"

This is likely a Death Match, so I do think the overcoming part's going to be instantaneous.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@Antorus

I feel like the first one is a straw man. That didnt answer why, it just answer how he could.

I mean, he probably could block it, but if he destroys it, he is screwed.

Tbf, Laharl isnt...that powerful. Although I dont know about his Space-Time Manipulation

If its any good, it will probably be decisive imo.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Antorus Laharl doesn't need an item to destroy the universe with a punch, it's just a punch.

Anyways I'm leaving this thread, I can't even keep up with it.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@KinkiestSins I disagree with that, MUI Goku doesn't mess around, he is completely focused on the battle.

That...makes literally no sense at all.

Saying he doesn't mess around and thus he will do that is a classic strawman.

And is it really that crucial to have him not drink the item?

I personally think on second thought, Goku has a fair shot, but this seems like a moot point at best.

I am not saying it is impossible, just unlikely.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

And Casual Jiren's PRESENCE alone shook the entire World of Void. SSJ2 Kefla could destroy a Universe in a blast. Hell, I think even BASE Super Goku could destroy the Universe, as this rate.

Punching a Universe to obliteration isn't really a feat in DB.

 

[Iceassassin25]

Doesn't Laharl have better hax than Goku?

 

[KinkiestSins]

"I am not saying Goku cant overcome Laharl, but I doubt it would be instantly unless it is life threatning"
This is likely a Death Match, so I do think the overcoming part's going to be instantaneous.

Unless bloodlusted, this isnt a pure on death match and tbh, this sounds like moving the goalpost.

I will change my vote for Goku I guess for Fate's reasoning I guess, just to get this over with.

Seems pretty conclusive at least in character that setting all that aside, Goku just has the better AP, Experience, Mindset etc.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

@KinkiestSins I disagree with that, MUI Goku doesn't mess around, he is completely focused on the battle.

That...makes literally no sense at all.
Saying he doesn't mess around and thus he will do that is a classic strawman.

And is it really that crucial to have him not drink the item?

I personally think on second thought, Goku has a fair shot, but this seems like a moot point at best.

I am not saying it is impossible, just unlikely.

If you're fighting for your life, and if your opponent's drinking ANY type of Item, it's instinctive to easily punch that Item away from their grasp.

And, considering that this is M.U.I Goku....

It isn't that unlikely.

 

[KinkiestSins]

And Casual Jiren's PRESENCE alone shook the entire World of Void. SSJ2 Kefla could destroy a Universe in a blast. Hell, I think even BASE Super Goku could destroy the Universe, as this rate.
Punching a Universe to obliteration isn't really a feat in DB.

That is still only a High 3-A feat.

The second one is argument from belief.

Third one is pretty fair though, everyone is 3-A or Low 2-C via statements (except Zamasu that is)

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Doesn't Laharl have better hax than Goku?

Hax doesn't make you instantly Stronger/Better though. Hell, Hit has Time Stop/Skip hax, and he lost to Goku's screaming/Kamehameha in DBS...

 

[Therefir]

That...makes literally no sense at all.

Saying he doesn't mess around and thus he will do that is a classic strawman.

And is it really that crucial to have him not drink the item?

And I don't understand what you're trying to say, have you seen the last episodes?

And how you are going to drink/eat the item when someone who is becoming more faster, stronger and have Danmaku is fighting you?

 

[KinkiestSins]

If you're fighting for your life, and if your opponent's drinking ANY type of Item, it's instinctive to easily punch that Item away from their grasp.

That sounds like a reach. Again, the two are mutually exclusive.

TBH, why would he even need to take the drink away anyway, he can just punch him a hundred times instead and force him not too.

That is far easier of an assumption, I am going occams razor here.

I will assume that even if Laharl had the drink, Goku would probably beat him up before he could drink it.

Unless of course, Laharl has god tier hax I am missing.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

And Casual Jiren's PRESENCE alone shook the entire World of Void. SSJ2 Kefla could destroy a Universe in a blast. Hell, I think even BASE Super Goku could destroy the Universe, as this rate.
Punching a Universe to obliteration isn't really a feat in DB.

That is still only a High 3-A feat.
The second one is argument from belief.

Third one is pretty fair though, everyone is 3-A or Low 2-C via statements (except Zamasu that is)

I don't think the Second one's based off belief, since it was stated that, during the BoG's Arc, Goku in SSJ was still making Universal Destroying Clashes with Beerus.

And now, his base Form ALONE has gone through a considerable amount of training since then.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

"I am not saying Goku cant overcome Laharl, but I doubt it would be instantly unless it is life threatning"
This is likely a Death Match, so I do think the overcoming part's going to be instantaneous.

Unless bloodlusted, this isnt a pure on death match and tbh, this sounds like moving the goalpost.
I will change my vote for Goku I guess for Fate's reasoning I guess, just to get this over with.

Seems pretty conclusive at least in character that setting all that aside, Goku just has the better AP, Experience, Mindset etc.

True, true. But, then again, during Xenoverse 2, Goku in M.U.I was stated to not mess around either. And he was just SPARRING with the CAC.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Actually you right on the second one @Antorus.

I mistook that for a Low 2-C universe bust, so yeah you right.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

If you're fighting for your life, and if your opponent's drinking ANY type of Item, it's instinctive to easily punch that Item away from their grasp.

That sounds like a reach. Again, the two are mutually exclusive.
TBH, why would he even need to take the drink away anyway, he can just punch him a hundred times instead and force him not too.

That is far easier of an assumption, I am going occams razor here.

I will assume that even if Laharl had the drink, Goku would probably beat him up before he could drink it.

Unless of course, Laharl has god tier hax I am missing.

Ya know, when I say that he could instinctively punch his Item away, I never said he would just do that alone. Hell, if anything, all he'd need to do is AIR Punch Laharl to a knockout.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Does it sound like a reach? Yes. Is it likely? Also yes.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Ya know, when I say that he could instinctively punch his Item away, I never said he would just do that alone. Hell, if anything, all he'd need to do is AIR Punch Laharl to a knockout.

Then why are you arguing for it?

In a debate, Occams Razor is totally fair

Tbh, if you wanna vote for Goku or anyone really, you can just use the simplest assumption sometimes and save yourself ten replies at this rate.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Ya know, when I say that he could instinctively punch his Item away, I never said he would just do that alone. Hell, if anything, all he'd need to do is AIR Punch Laharl to a knockout.

Then why are you arguing for it?
In a debate, Occams Razor is totally fair

Tbh, if you wanna vote for Goku or anyone really, you can just use the simplest assumption sometimes and save yourself ten replies at this rate.

Never said it wasn't. I'm basically agreeing with you. So, what's there to argue? I'm just stating that you're seemingly undermining just how serious M.U.I Goku truly is.