Goku VS. Laharl

[The_real_cal_howard]

Beerus's profile says that he's at least comparable, as opposed to superior, to Infinite Zamasu. So...yeah. Profile says Beerus is equal to or barely above a baseline Low 2-C.

 

[Theglassman12]

And Jiren is more powerful than Zamasu casually, something goku was able to keep up with

 

[The_Everlasting]

MUI Goku = Full Power Jiren >>> Barely trying Jiren > GoD Toppo >> Retardedly suppressed Jiren >>>> Gods of Destruction >= Infinite Zamasu.

Or something... I never gave the scaling at this point much thought.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Again, of course, but given that it's not implied that Jiren can fodderize GoDs, it's not to the same extent as Laharl's dwarfing.

Also, more powerful doesn't always mean stomping, and stomping doesn't equate to being fodder to others.

 

[Mania568]

thats more to justify his low 2-c than it is to say he is only baseline since we never saw him fight anyone that was low 2-c yet, he isnt baseline for reasons i mentioned above. even if he was baseline that would only mean a casual jiren would be above him and goku beated a limit break jiren.

you are downplaying goku too much and are you sure all demons on disgaea are low 2-c by default because of a skill people who can equip a fist can learn?

 

[ThePerpetual]

Not all demons, clearly, no, but if we're assuming he's at his full power? Then all of the demons that are in any way relevant at this point, sure.

 

[Mania568]

im not 100% fluent on disgaea verse but i did beat all games several times, in my opinion i dont see anything below god tier overlord and overlord level demon lords to reach that level like etna who is clearly god tier overlord level but follows laharl. overlords on disgaea 2 where being defeated left and right by a fake zenon who was planet level. so i dont think saying fodder is low 2-c makes sense since we were showned not all overlords can even go above planet level, mostly all games only have the party and last boss being low 2-c and its by scaling it to laharl, laharl is low 2-c for checking baal who is low 2-c.

 

[ThePerpetual]

How strong an "Overlord" is isn't entirely consistent throughout game to game, since they exhibit seperate feats within their own games. When one accounts for all of Laharl's appearances, however, it reaches a point where characters far weaker than Laharl within the canon can throw around Big Bang- i.e. the Universe level+ version- without it being too big of a deal.

Also, is Xenon even Planet level? Sounds a bit low to me... meh. Whatever, wasn't really super knowledgable on that game anyhow.

 

[Mania568]

disgaea 2 and 5 show countless overlords who are around that level where even d5 mc was severely supressed as well as the others who only gain their "true powers" after awakening their emotions, only god tiers amoungst overlords are low 2-c unless d2 and 5 dont count as enough proof, saying anyone can use big bang when even overlords average is in planet+ range would be to deny the story progression over a skill one might learn in game.

 

[ThePerpetual]

"when even overlords average is in planet+ range"

This is the very assumption I'm challenging, though. Overlords don't always "average" in this range, most ordinary monstrous races can pull this level of power off.

Hell, currently ordinary prinnies are listed as Planet level and FTL (though tbh I disagree with that, personally. Still goes to show, though.)

 

[Mania568]

yeah, that prinny is suposed to be an average of a foot soldier level, i thought by story they werent even wall level without bombs etc, but their skills show some destruction, might've been that that scaled them, like in everything there's tiers in strenght, every current overlord (assuming any overlord with courage at the timeline of the game accepted the challenge to become the strongest overlord) challanged fake zenon and he defeated countless of them in a row, all attacking at once. im not sure how the timeline on disgaea is, but its supposed to say all disgaeas are same universe but different ages by centuries at a time, again d2 and d5 show several overlords by that level so the idea all scrubs are low 2-c shouldnt be used. on each timeline at that point only the mc party and bad boss party are low 2-c.

 

[FateAlbane]

Pal, if range of destruction defined every tier and if every character needed to be shown busting a galaxy/universe/multiverse/whatever to get scaling and a tier, a bunch of SMT people that are 2-A would be wall level since they don't bust even a room in their battles, let alone an infinite multiverse. And that's SMT we're talking about here.

Let's not even get started on a bunch of other verses out there.

 

[FateAlbane]

Like seriously, I can think of 1-A characters that would go down the tier they're at because they never were shown busting anything big. Just drop this already.

 

[FateAlbane]

Also, saying Overlord's average power is Planet makes as much as 0 sense.

Fodders, even the lowest, absolute of the fodders on Laharl's netherworld aren't impressed by Laharl busting every star in sight during the span of time that Flonne was tending to her garden, before she could notice he was gone, which shows as he gets 0 respect/isn't acknowledged in the story until he works on that. And Etna says literally no one will bother about a feat of that caliber. Note that she also says the stars, clearly referring to the feat as a whole of destroying every star in sight. She doesn't even say "They can destroy a star".




Pram says an individual Universe is about as important as a speck of Dust in Makai Kingdom.

>>> Still says Overlords are usually Planet Level. That basically equals saying Overlords are lower than fodder of fodder of the verse, like the very first enemies you encounter roaming around.

You say you played every game, but a declaration like that when this is literally the very first event we get in D2 makes me think you're either forgetting the verse, doesn't know the full cosmology or is just really trying to downplay at this point.

And disregarding the Big Bang skill is like saying Sephiroth's supernova shouldn't scale to anyone because it's a skill and he needed Meteor in the plot.

Literal feats and cosmology trumps headcanon, which is what this argument against the scaling ammounts to at this point.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Fate destroyed the downplay like Laharl destroyed the universe~

 

[Rikimarox2]

Goku FRA.

 

[Stryk3r1337]

Goku FRA

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

1 more vote for the saiyan before he wins

 

[Phoenix821]

Goku FRA

 

[Xantospoc]

Laharl won't pull off the planet bursting. yes, he did that ONCE but that was not even canon and only because they had him talk. In the canon, when he fought Zenon, he outright tailed away.

I am kind of iffy about putting his defeat of Baal as canon, as the istances in the game are not quite regarded as such (and the Disgaea post-game power scaling becomes a mess after a while), but he DID humiliate him in a novel, when he even let the Prinnies beat him up at the end.

Given Goku's ridicolous AP gap and his auto dodge manouver (Note, the Big Bang fist seems to need to land to even take effect, given only characters who are in contact take damage), Goku should make a fool out of Laharl and would be too no-nonsense to let him burst the planet (see when Jiren tried to do the same with Goku's friends)

 

[Mania568]

@FateAlbane so you are saying that d2 average of overlords is wrong and fake zenon needs a revision? because if his 5b is right and he defeated several overlords alone, then d2 average with the story is 5b, im saying average of d2, not that all disgaea average is that, on dd2 the average is bigger, but no matter how much you try to highball it it wont change from 5b and above to low 2-c knowing the difference from d1 and 2 isnt that much in years, the idea everyone is low 2-c over a skill one might learn when the story shows otherwise by scaling to fake zenon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There are numerous skills ranging from galaxy level to universe level+. Don't act like 5-B is the limit when it isn't.

 

[Mania568]

i said it was the average of one of the games when the scaling from fake zenon is used, not that its any limit, my point to begin with is that not all "fodder" is low 2-c by default and used d2 as it shows a scaling of one overlord, obviously the range goes anywhere from below planet level (in d2 fodder case) to universal+

 

[ThePerpetual]

People keep saying "for reasons above"... what reasons? The only real argument I've seen at all here is that Goku has a higher Attack Potency, which doesn't really seem to be the case. It's fine to think so-and-so wins a bout, but if the one and only reason you've given for thinking so is based on a faulty premise then it doesn't really amount to much.

A very large number of Laharl's attacks cause the destruction of planets, stellar structures, etc. just on accident. If Goku is still somehow unable to survive in space, then his opening with nearly anything will either put him on a timer or force him to Instant Transmission to a breathable, and any of his vacuum-creating techniques will just kind of... end it, just about, or at least be pretty severely crippling.

(Side note: Imo, all Goku fights should be in like, the Hyperbolic Time Chamber or something. Winning against him by making him unable to breathe, which many combatants of this level might do on accident, is uhh... kinda dumb. Lol.)

 

[FateAlbane]

@FateAlbane so you are saying that d2 average of overlords is wrong and fake zenon needs a revision? because if his 5b is right and he defeated several overlords alone, then d2 average with the story is 5b, im saying average of d2, not that all disgaea average is that, on dd2 the average is bigger, but no matter how much you try to highball it it wont change from 5b and above to low 2-c knowing the difference from d1 and 2 isnt that much in years, the idea everyone is low 2-c over a skill one might learn when the story shows otherwise by scaling to fake zenon.

Sorry but when your arguments foundations are still "I don't believe it" and when the general scaling of the verse as a whole literally SHOWS you that level of power both in cosmology and in skills, your idea of Overlord's average being planet is hilarious and gets 0 credibility.

The term Overlord is used in the verse as a whole to refer to the strongest class of demons sans Tyrant like Baal. They use it the very same way from Disgaea 1 to 5. There's no such thing as this imaginary separation between titles you're trying to make and even if there was, seeing you still try to stand by this argument of Planet is a ridiculous notion when I actually brought proof of what I'm saying while you just keep repeating "It isn't!" and speaking headcanons.

You do Realize Fake Zenon took on a Full Powered Etna post the main story of Disgaea and wasn't oneshotted, by the way, right? He had lost to her by the next day, ended up weakened as a result. Said her power was comparable to an Overlord. Not inferior or superior. Mind you, the Disgaea 2 DLCs in D2 recognize Laharl, Etna and the others, but Laharl and Etna still don't. Guess why that is? Because. Disgaea 2. Is chronologically. AFTER D2. Not before. So they come from dimensional distortions to make the meeting possible. The story goes out of its way to explain this stuff. So the Fake Zenon you claim to be planet level took on an Etna who is comparable to Endgame full power Laharl who canonically defeated Baal. Twice. Granted, full power Etna is far superior to him, but she's no True Zenon to be oneshotting. Later and near endgame, same Fake Zenon took a massive number of other Overlords that kept coming after him one after another before finally taking on the endgame party before fully recovering.

And you imply he's worse off than Planet level absolute fodder by the story standards based on the feat he casually did of Taking over a Netherworld, which people seem to be assuming means a Planet when Veldime and Netherworlds in general are usually taken to mean universe and you should know that if you just played the games properly. Or do you imply for example, that Laharl's Netherworld has a bunch of stars in the sky yet it's some random planet?

The only reason base Adell is currently rated at Planet lvl is because I wasn't bothered enough to make a revision on that stuff.

Are you really sure you even understand the games you say you played? The timeline of them?

The terms? The cosmology?

You keep making false points that are extremely basic stuff and at this point it's frankly just headcanon/incredulity that adds nothing to the discussion. I'm not highballing when my points are all backed up both by visual proof and the story. You're just saying no at this point without backing up anything you say.

 

[FateAlbane]

It's also hilarious when you don't even adress the other points like the visualshowings and displays of this kind of power , and how we do use skills and scaling in series to gauge the power of the verses (see FF7 example above, where Sephiroth needed plot related stuff to deal with a Planet when by his own power he can use a skill that blows up a Solar System), still only going and saying no over and over. If we have nameless demons that are canonically stated to be ridiculously below Overlords being capable and show of busting a Universe with a punch, they are Universe lvl. Doesn't matter if you think they shouldn't. Period.

It's also hilarious saying I'm highballing when I put the literal feats, skills and statements in the screen while you make nothing but deny the obvious proof. Stop treating Nippon Ichi like some separate individual continuity already. You say you know the verse but at this point I'm doubting it entirely.

Sorry for having to say it again, but your way of adressing this matter just sounds like downplay.

 

[ALRF]

>Zeno

>Planet levelu

>Looks at reasoning

That's the same reasoning as telling me Tenma Yato should be Tier 6 cause most of his feats are in that certain range (they are) while ignoring power-scaling and other feats and judging which should be used (but hell you just deny anything apart from planet for some reason without giving some hard proof) .

Just like Fate has been going on for some time, If many characters <<< Zenon who are able to universe bust, there's nothing wrong with scaling them to him.

 

[FateAlbane]

I am kind of iffy about putting his defeat of Baal as canon, as the istances in the game are not quite regarded as such (and the Disgaea post-game power scaling becomes a mess after a while), but he DID humiliate him in a novel, when he even let the Prinnies beat him up at the end.

...They totally are, though.

Disgaea 1 >>> Krichevskoy's death in the main story turns out to be due to protecting the Netherworld from Baal, whom he has sealed. Laharl defeats him.

Disgaea 3 >>>





Disgaea D2>>>












Even in Makai Kingdom, they have a special bad ending made specifically in the case you had Laharl as your main when you beat him. >>>









Flonne and Etna were also well aware of Baal in this game as well while Zetta himself thought it was just a legend.









And then there's even a Novel with the same feat of defeating Baal still standing. So yeah, Laharl having defeated Baal across Nippon Ichi continuity is a very much solidified thing.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

OK! Goku wins 7-2! Let's get this added.

 

[FateAlbane]

Yes. I'm fine with Goku winning, even if with high diff. If people think there needs to be a grace period, they can wait, but I'm fine with concluding this as is and adding right now (I'd actually be more than happy with this being added right away if no one else has a problem with it).

 

[KinkiestSins]

Laharl FRA.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I give this to Laharl.

The highter Ap argument got debunked,if the figth is long(which it will likely be) Goku will lost UI and Laharl will planet bust or use some other powers,like sleep manip,paralysis and healing.

Laharl with high diff.

 

[Dienomite22]

Laharl for having a massive experience advantage, attacks that can accidently(and purposefully) kill Goku, and being able to use consumables.

 

[Theglassman12]

Goku has fought people with higher experience than him and has won.

 

[Dienomite22]

I mean't Laharl having likely faced someone like Goku who is mainly a physical brawler with some ki attacks.

Laharl, at least in this case, is kinda Goku but with more variety and with less care for controlling his ki, both of which is bad for Goku.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Except Goku's fought people who have ****** up with their Ki control before.

Hell, Kale's a good example of **** all Ki Control. Same goes with Kefla (Since she unleashed ALL of her Ki all over the Place in order to hit Goku in OMEN).

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Also, more Variety? Variety doesn't = the better fighter. Hit has more Time Variety, and he's weaker than a lower Jiren/U.I Goku.

 

[FateAlbane]

Seeing as how I already cast my vote and already provided more than enough proof/explanations to the scaling... I'll be leaving this thread now. Any more of that would just be derailing the match proper, anyways.

Nothing more to add here. Unfollowing, but good luck to both sides I guess. o/

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

I give this to Laharl.
The highter Ap argument got debunked,if the figth is long(which it will likely be) Goku will lost UI and Laharl will planet bust or use some other powers,like sleep manip,paralysis and healing.

Laharl with high diff.

...

3 things:

1. The Sleep manipulation seems to be something Laharl won't do.

2. The Planet busting thing's also not one of Laharl's ideals. Hell, Laharl only blew up the Planet once. In fact, this shouldn't matter anyway, yes? Cause, Freeza did this exact same thing against SSB Vegeta. Though, yes, while the Time Reverse did help with this, it's unlikely Goku will ever see Laharl go through that move. Not while his worst enemy's already done it before.

And 3. Healing? And Paraslysis? SSG Goku can Heal. So, maybe the same can apply with U.I Goku as well. Though, if not, then were are Senzu Beans to aid him with a rematch, or something like that. Also, Jiren was Paralyzed by Hit, and he was able to break through that. So, if Jiren could break through Paralysis, then so can Goku.

Also, remember, Goku was at Low Stamina when he FIRST Mastered U.I. He also went Omen TWICE beforehand. Hell, Goku's gone through a HEAVY toll with his other Forms before. However, he did break through those Tolls in the end. Ultra Instinct's no different.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Goku able move laharl via it to heaven? Laharl not planet busting there (well actually) heaven has air for million and million of km. And yeah even off the planet as Goku had air on snake way man.