Goku vs Giorno Giovanna

[Sir_Ovens]

It's been said to death, but Goku is still 3-D and bound to cause and effect. It's because of this that Giorno's hax can still affect him.

 

[Excerves]

Ok so I just went through all the messages and I counted:

Goku: 3 (MAYBE 4)

Giorno: About 15

Is this not a case closed?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

wait for 24 hours which idk when was the 7th vote for Gio casted...

 

[AKM sama]

Votes for Giorno are fallacious as they abuse NLF, js.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Reasons that were brought for Giorno sound good to me.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

^Same.

 

[RM97]

GER's Hax being applicable on Goku isn't NLF tho. His "Zero Reset" ability is a Conceptual based Hax and manipulates the very laws of Cause and Effect. And not only does the ability manipulates Causality, but it also manipulates Willpower and Death too. So unless you are a higher dimensional being or an acausal being or a good reality warper or causality manipulator, you can't beat this ability. Goku currently has no defence or counter for this ability.

 

[AKM sama]

Goku is also bound by time. That doesn't mean he can't resist time stop. In fact many characters who are bound by the concept of reality and time have resisted reality warping and time manipulation.

Similarly, just because a character is bound by cause and effect doesn't mean he can't resist causality manipulation. In case of Goku, he has never been exposed to it so he has not shown any resistance to it.

That doesn't mean one can simply assume GER's causality manipulation works on those who have not shown explicit resistance to it, without proof because everything has limits. Therefore it was decided that even when the ability is only shown to work on 9-A's, one can still assume it to work up to tier 3 without proofs. For anyone above tier 3 there should be proof.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Burden of proof literally falls onto you to tell me if Goku can resist Cause and Effect. As stated above, Giorno can affect someone with 4-D powers (Diavolo). So unless Goku is 4-D himself, he gets nulled.

Also here's a 9-B that can kill tier 2s.

 

[Dziga]

I don't see how saying GER's ability can affect Goku is "fallacious" and a "NLF". Goku has never shown resistance to causality manipulation, acasuality or any ability that could combat causality manipulation. Having Infinite speed just makes things worse because Giorno can use his ability infinitely on Goku and negate anything Goku could do an infinite amount of time.

 

[Excerves]

Goku is also bound by time. That doesn't mean he can't resist time stop. In fact many characters who are bound by the concept of reality and time have resisted reality warping and time manipulation.
Similarly, just because a character is bound by cause and effect doesn't mean he can't resist causality manipulation. In case of Goku, he has never been exposed to it so he has not shown any resistance to it.

That doesn't mean one can simply assume GER's causality manipulation works on anyone without proof because everything has limits. Therefore it was decided that even when the ability is only shown to work on 9-A's, one can still assume it to work up to tier 3 without proofs. For anyone above tier 3 there should be proof.

tbh I think it is even less logical to simply assume that goku can just resist causality manipulation without even being implied to be able to. He has not been implied to be able to do anything even close to that realm. We do know however that GER can manipulate and nullify actions and causality completely (which governs the 3D physical world), which Goku lives within. As far as I know Goku is strictly physical and all of his feats seem to come from purely his strength. I don't see why a causality manipulator would not be able to reset a punch from someone... even if that punch is really, really, REALLY hard. It is still 3D.

 

[Seventy96]

Ok,GER can defeat Goku, but how he can KILL Kakarotto?

 

[AKM sama]

"tbh I think it is even less logical to simply assume that goku can just resist causality manipulation without even being implied to be able to."

The question is not whether Goku can resist causality manipulation or not. The question is whether GER's causality manipulation is effective enough to affect a Low 2-C being.

I am constantly giving examples. Has Zeno shown an explicit resistance to existence erasure? No. But is Beerus' existence erasure effective enough to erase Zeno? No.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Apparently by turning inorganic matter into a virus that can kill him.

Mind you my vote is still inconclusive.

 

[RM97]

Using Virus because GER still retained it's initial ability to turn inorganic matter to organic and living things

 

[Seventy96]

Scan or didn't happen.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

I think it was concluded that Goku is a 3D being, not 4D.

 

[Dziga]

Yeh Goku still exists in a 3D plane, he just has 4D powers.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Then I don't see a problem here. Why wouldn't a 4D power be able to affect a 3D being? Votes for Giorno are valid.

 

[RM97]

@Seventy96 GER's blast against Diavolo hit the building and turned the debris into Scorpions. Even as Gold Experience, he could turn inorganic non living things into organic living beings like Trees, Frogs, Snakes, Living Tissues to heal Giorno.

 

[Excerves]

Now that I think about it... since Goku always starts off at his base form and then powers up to whatever. Couldn't Giorno just nullify the action of Goku changing forms to ultra instinct? (so nullify him before he even has the chance to become 2-C?) Or would it be more fair to simply let Goku start out in his top form?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

>abandoning thread

I ain't messing with this anymore.

 

[Excerves]

So is this thread getting closed or are we adding this to the profiles? This has gone on a bit too long i think. right now the votes stand at around

Goku - 3

Giorno - 15

Inconclusive - 3

 

[Dziga]

Yeh I think they can add to their profiles already. I'll request it.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

No I think this is a blatant stomp.

 

[Dienomite22]

Yea this shouldn't be added imo but I do think a note on Goku's profile about him being susceptible to 3-D hax should be added.

EDIT: And probably for others in DBZ/S but idk

 

[Theglassman12]

@dienomite you do know you can just look at their profiles to see if they're resistant to hax right?

 

[Dienomite22]

@Theglassman12 You would think so but this thread proves that some people can't get that or didn't know that.

 

[Elione-Arisu]

That's not what Dienomite meant. What he meant is that he is vulnerable to 3-D hax, even if he is Low 2-C. Usually, assuming a character can affect a higher dimensional one (with hax, of course) without any feats of doing so would be a NLF, but in this case it isn't considering how this form works.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Yet GER is actually 4d hax not 3d .

 

[Dienomite22]

true

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Zeno should have resistance to erasure via power scaling to Goku, or at least on Beerus level anyway.
But Causality manip like GER is different story because such ability is doesn't even exist in DBS.

 

[Joseph619]

Can Goku even bust a timeline? He's Low 2-C via having more raw power than Zamasu, not via a timeline busting feat himself.

He can't. Goku doesn't have Universal spatial manipulation. He's Low 2-C by powerscaling only. Breaking room of spirit and time is nowhere near comparable is it's a tiny pocket dimension

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Why is this still going on?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Why not , not hurting anything and kills some boredom .

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Fair enough.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

But you are hurting boredom.

Poor boredom.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Boredom for reason above.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Funny , but ya forget that boredom is dead , killed by me .

 

[Akreious]

Shouldn't this be locked if the results are already in?

Also by the very definition, a Low 2-C would be capable of destroying a timeline. Unless you're implying UI Goku would get stomped by Infinite Zamasu since Goku apparently can't destroy all of Zamasu.