Goku 2-C

[PaChi2]

Because everyone who actually has summoning have it as a natural ability or are normal human inventors who are allowed to use tech for whatever, such as summoning.

Goku is in neither position in any way shape or form.

That's double standards.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Dark

The gun example is moot because the falls directly under an inventor or a gunsman, which goes with my argument

@PaChi2

How is that a double standard?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The same thing could be said about Naruto summons, the frogs don't always help Naruto.

When Naruto fails to summon the one he wants? Like a tadpole or tiny gamakichi?

Not one instance where Naruto legitimately summons a summoning do they go against him.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Professor do we remove Samus' suit from her profile because its not her creation? Do we remove guns from every profile that didn't create their own guns?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, the very first time he summoned Gamabantu, Gamabantu was literally pessimistic about Naruto and viewed him as just some stupid kid. Even Jiraiya seemed somewhat scared about Naruto summoning "Him of all things." And even other times he summoned him, Gamabantu typically demands something in return whenever he's summoned.

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree with adding this.

 

[Dienomite22]

Even if this was added in, what would be the point? Goku with Zen'o button vs a 2-C opponent would just make it a Zen'o vs the 2-C fight since Goku would be waayy outclassed and useless in the fight making it pointless for him to be in it anyway.And sure you can have it as a non-combat applicable thing but there would be no point in putting such a small detail for Goku on the profile anyway, people would more than likely already know about the button and the people who don't know about it won't get anything out of knowing it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Somebody

That was already addressed with Master Chief. Samus is in the same boat as humans who are inventors or specialize in speciifcally using weaponry for the basis of literally all their stuff when they don't have nearly anything individually by themselves. So its perfectly fine for Samus to have all her stuff and anyone who uses guns.

Sinon from SAO is a sniper, so she keeps hers for specifically specializing in using guns.

Goku is not in the same boat. He literally only has a button and has natural capabilties that can more than help him hold his own. He doesnt make inventions, he doesnt specialize in using them, using the button is no more than calling someone to help them when they are in a pinch.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Dieno The point would be to make the profile accurate, you know, kinda the point of the wiki?...

 

[SomebodyData]

@Professor, that... is a really poor reasoning. Essentially your argument boils down to one using their equipment more than another.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually, the very first time he summoned Gamabantu, Gamabantu was literally pessimistic about Naruto and viewed him as just some stupid kid. Even Jiraiya seemed somewhat scared about Naruto summoning "Him of all things." And even other times he summoned him, Gamabantu typically demands something in return whenever he's summoned.

Knew you would say this. You know exactly what I mean by instances.

Naruto literally summoned him for the first time after JUST making a contract with the toads. Of course an experienced toad like Gamabunta would question why a kid-teen with a bunch of knives would summon him out of nowhere.

Even then, this was a training session to master the summoning jutsu, not a battle. Gamabunta had no complaints in actual battles where he was summoned by Naruto, like against Gaara, Pain, and so on.

 

[OmniTops]

But the problem with that is that its not even an ability. It's just a button, and Goku is not in the same position as inventors like Phineas/Ferb, Jimmy Neutron, Dexter, etc. who heavily depend on inventions or tech to do anything outside their normal human stats.
If majority still wants to add this to his equipment and note its not applicable to combat then i'll disgress but for now im only agreeing with the separate page for the button if that is still up.

I do not see the problem of adding the button of Zeno to being part of their equipment, you say that Goku is not in the same position as inventors like Phineas/Ferb, Jimmy Neutron, Dexter, etc. who heavily depend on inventions or tech to do anything outside their normal human stats.. but if that were the case because Future Trunks has access to his sword if he can perform feats superior to those of a normal human, it is not the same to compare a sword with the Zeno button, well another example, Vilgax has Chronosapien Time Bomb (multiversal weapon) despite being a character with statistics higher than normal humans. we just have to put a note that says it is not applicable to combat.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I do not see the problem of adding the button of Zeno to being part of their equipment, you say that Goku is not in the same position as inventors like Phineas/Ferb, Jimmy Neutron, Dexter, etc. who heavily depend on inventions or tech to do anything outside their normal human stats.. but if that were the case because Future Trunks has access to his sword if he can perform feats superior to those of a normal human, it is not the same to compare a sword with the Zeno button, well another example, Vilgax has Chronosapien Time Bomb (multiversal weapon) despite being a character with statistics higher than normal humans. we just have to put a note that says it is not applicable to combat.

Trunks using a sword because he's a swordsman? Anyone can literally be that.

A time bomb that can literally wipe out a whole multiverse? Pretty sure Vilgax would want to use that

We're mixing up people who CAN use weaponry to people who HEAVILY DEPEND on weaponry to do anything. Without machinery or tech, Phineas, Ferb, Jimmy, Rick, and more are next to nothing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Professor, that... is a really poor reasoning. Essentially your argument boils down to one using their equipment more than another.

Because one side is literally nothing withou their tech? Like, on the line of being just regular people who cant do a thing?

It's not really arguing on who uses it more its arguing one who heavily requires it to do anything and the other the complete opposite.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Zeno never had any complaints about Goku summoning him to kill Fusion Zamasu Soul; additionally, Zeno and Goku are friends actually; that doesn't always mean Zeno would finish off every opponent for him, or that Goku would use him in every fight; in fact, that would rarely ever happen. But Son Goku does have the option to use it, and Zeno does have the option to help Goku. which is what really matters.

 

[SomebodyData]

And...? That doesn't mean anything at all.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Dark

Zen'o didnt really do it for Goku, he did it because he was displeased with Zamasu becoming the universe and wanted him gone personally after being called.

@Somebody

It does because it justifies one side getting every tech they have and the other doesnt.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Professor No, it doesn't. All you've shown is that they're worse without their tech, like Goku would be without the Button.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The difference is not just "worse". They're literally NOTHING without any gadget they have. Phineas, Ferb, Jimmy, Sinon, Rick, none of them would be any tier without their tech because their just normal people.

Goku isnt worse without a button because he's an actual Low 2-C and has tiering without any gadgets assistance like the latter. He can fight without the button, having the button is no more than a way to get help because he himself cannot defeat [insert here]. Thats the very defintion of outside assistance.

 

[SomebodyData]

Other than having Genius level intellect you mean? And what about Samus? And this is still not good reasoning...

Low 2-C < 2-C mate and then there's the fact that this also counts 3-A Goku who is infinitely weaker than that.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

"Tfw you almost thought someone is gonna claim that Goku should be 2-C"

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Other than having Genius level intellect you mean? And what about Samus? And this is still not good reasoning...
Low 2-C < 2-C mate and then there's the fact that this also counts 3-A Goku who is infinitely weaker than that.

Please explain why it isnt good reasoning. Because im failing to see why it wouldnt be.

So what if 2-C is stronger than Low 2-C? Goku getting a 2-C in to beat whatever Low 2-C he himself can't beat is literally nothing more than calling them to help for that purpose and for that purpose only. Thats outside help.

 

[SomebodyData]

Because the power of the profiles have absolutely no control on whether or not something should be included. Accuracy does. What you're proposing is absurd, that one profile should not have something due to power, but others should.

"So what if 2-C is stronger than Low 2-C?"

Did you literally not just point out that some characters are weaker without their tech as a point?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well I already said that if it were to be added for accuracy purposes, at all, it would be labled as useless in combat. Unless we're agreeing with this conclusion (then i'll concede here), its not at all absurd for one side to be allowed to use tech while the other side isn't for specific reasonings.

Not just some. A majority of all characters who use tech. And once again, it isn't just weaker, they are absolutely no tier, no combatant, no fighter at all without tech. The examples I named are just ordinary kids, teens and adults without tech to back them up, which is why they're allowed to use tech for themselves in battle, otherwise whats the point in pitting normal people with no skills whatsoever against people who do? There is none. It would be massive stomps, unfair battles from the start.

In Goku's case, he isnt weaker without tech. He doesnt rely on tech at all for anything and has never relied on tech. He is a character with natural capabilites that can well support him. If he is outclassed by someone better, then he is outclassed. He shouldnt get the same treatment as those who explicity need their weapons just so he can avoid a loss/stomp. In other words, one side needs it to do anything, the other does not.

 

[Akreious]

So... What's the problem with adding a "Button that summons Zen'o. Rarely if ever used by Goku" item for Goku? This is an indexing site right? Saying "Oh it doesn't count despite many others having the same thing" makes no sense and is frankly, definitely double standards. It does not change the fact that he still HAS the option to summon Zen'o and currently, still can. It's apart of his items now. It will probably never be used in battles (Since he'd rather fight and die rather than rely on outside help unless it's with a Universal like Zamasu or something but even then he's stronger than Zamasu now) so I don't see what's wrong with adding this item.

 

[SomebodyData]

That's... then why were you arguing against addition before? I think it was kinda obvious it wouldn't be combat applicable. (It would either cause stomps or might as well just use Zeno instead for the thread.)

To be in that situation in the first place, the character would have to be in the tier without the tech so that makes no sense.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Somebody

Because some here are kind of trying to make this combat applicable from the way it looks. If we add it and just say it can't be used in combat, i'll be fine with that and drop the whole thing for support. Anything past that I heavily have issues with.

 

[SomebodyData]

I see, understandable. Tho I don't think anyone had that idea...

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

We are literally just placing it as equipment....

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

My apologies for any misunderstandings by the way.

Its ultimately the ladder I don't agree with. Stuff in the former seems reasonable if anything.

 

[Akreious]

In-Character, Goku would never use the Button unless absolutely needed (AKA if a match is a stomp and Goku CANNOT win. Which in that case, Just use Zen'o) and when Bloodlusted would probably forget about it and or have sufficient power for it NOT to be a stomp.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

In-Character, Goku would never use the Button unless absolutely needed (AKA if a match is a stomp and Goku CANNOT win. Which in that case, Just use Zen'o) and when Bloodlusted would probably forget about it and or have sufficient power for it NOT to be a stomp.

This is the kind of thing I was arguing against. Not the button being placed for accuracy.

Goku should not be allowed to use Zen'o in any way shape or form in a vs match just so he can avoid a loss using someone else. Thats the very defintion of outside help and it should only be listed under standard equipment that cannot be used in a battle.

 

[Akreious]

If a match is such a stomp that you have to bring in Zen'o then what's the point of even using Goku :L

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im going to pretend that was an "OvO" ovo

 

[Akreious]

OvO

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

I agree with 2-C Goku.

 

[Damage3245]

What's to say that Zen'o would even help Goku if he was summoned in a match-up? In order to guarantee that you'd have to make Zen'o bloodlusted too, at which point any match with Goku just becomes "Bloodlusted Goku & Zen'o vs _____"

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

Well Goku easly convinced Zenou to kill Zamasu.


I mean, he can always say "Hey, this dude is pretty darn bad, if you kill him i´ll play with ya."


But this would be pretty out of character.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah no. That is still very much outside help for Goku to bring in Zen'o for a match just to prevent any possible loss or stomp.

This button should be added as only equipment thats unusuable in battle. Nothing more than that.

 

[Theglassman12]

But this would be pretty out of character.

Unless Goku is willing to kill.