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God of War: Greek Pantheon Revisions

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> Must we continue a discussion that is positively going nowhere?

A discussion that is going nowhere according to who? Because the people who kudos'ed my initial post asking to stand by and see the arguments clearly don't think this is a worthless discussion, nor do I.
 
The discussion of whether or not Kratos is 3-A because of frankly non-literal statements regarding a pillar and the light of the underworld? An argument which you don't even agree with? Which is literally becoming a discussion rule?
 
I don't agree with 1-A WoD at all either. Yet I took part in that discussion. Whether I agree with something is completely irrelevant, I don't decide how the rules flow here.

It isn't becoming a discussion rule. That was something you suggested bcause of this thread.

This is becoming ridiculous and just an attempt to avoid having to reply to long rebuttals. Just let the thread reach its natural end. Just discuss the topic. It isn't hard to be civil about this with other people.
 
I don't decide how the rules flow either, but I'm not the only person who considered making it a Discussion Rule. Medeus just out of the top of my head thinks so too.

And I'm already discussing this with Acheron on my wall, and it is being perfectly civil there. I don't see why it must be on two places at once.
 
Megaquake2012 said:
Why can't Young Kratos atleast become 4-A considering the Blades of Chaos are 4-A?
Click to expand...
See the explanation on the Norse Kratos' profile. The feats are so discrepantly different in scale between Greek and Norse that there is no point in cross-scaling between the two. Even then, the official canon novel says that Baldur is the strongest opponent Kratos ever faced.
 
I can discuss in a message wall (although I personally prefer one-to-one Discord), but there will be no point to it if a consensus is ever reached.
 
Given that this topic has apparently been discussed extensively in several previous threads, I also think that this thread should be closed.
 
Since this is being handled peacefully elsewhere, I will close this.
 
I am going to reopen this thread due to recent events. Yesterday I had a three hour-long conversation with @WindGodAcheron where we discussed the feats and arguments in his original OP, and I ultimately ended up being convinced and changed my mind from neutral to a supporter.

So count me in as a supporter for this upgrade, and I can argue some things myself. I hardly see the point of keeping all of the discussion on a message wall when we could just discuss on an actual thread and be transparent about it.
 
Really? Because all of the World Pillar claims of it being a universal support are laughable at best, and easy disproven by observation of the game proper, and typically involve extreme amounts of liberal taking of the wording.

The other feats such as Helios' supposed infinite speed light that lits up the supposedly infinite underworld is even worst, as the underworld is neither infinite, nor is Helios' speed that fast, as it quite literally would uniformily cover the whole underworld with it, which it doesn't.

Atlas never held the heavens and instead only the Earth, as we see in Chains of Olympus and God of War 2. Cronos didn't create linear time as the line only comes from a comic-con interview that says Cronos killed Uranus "at the dawn of time", which is an extremely typical figure of speech, and not a literalism to be accepted.

Finally, trying to upgrade Kratos to 3-A or even 2-C based on these "feats" show a cavalier disregard for the concept of consistency and outliers, as these are cherry-picked examples which do not, in any way, shape or form, reflect the actual nature of the series itself.

I also like how literally all the scans about "Nyx' dimension" comes from a Twitter conversation with a dev and not the actual game. What happened to standards of evidence? What we can testify in the work itself matters far more than Twitter WoG. There are rules for this stuff.
 
I think that Matthew seems to make sense.
 
Literally every single twitter scan should be thrown out of the window and with that the pro-Universal Kratos loses the vast majority of its "Evidence Scans". Remember when what we actually see on screen used to be more valuable than what we hear from developers or writers years after the fact? Remember when we used to take outliers seriously? I sure do.

Not to mention, there is the matter of it being an obvious outlier when compared to the overal scale of the games and novels which are consistently Tier 7 and 6.

Literalisms, Defunct Websites and Facebook Posts, and Twitter Answers from writers are not valid sources of feats, what actually matters are the games themselves which seem to be the last thing to be concerned in this threads.
 
I agree about that we should follow our standard regulations.
 
> Really? Because all of the World Pillar claims of it being a universal support are laughable at best, and easy disproven by observation of the game proper, and typically involve extreme amounts of liberal taking of the wording.

No actual scans being supplied to mark this point of view, just "it's laughable" with no evidence.

Let's review the evidence we use to "debunk" the multiple statements of cosmic scale regarding the Pillar:

  • "With the Power of the Sun in his hands, it's only a matter of time before he destroys the pillar that holds the world - and Olympus with it."
So, we use character statements saying the Pillar holds the world, and assume that's magically all that the statements can extend to without extra statements being taken into account, and ignore the context behind them.

Persephone's goal is to destroy Earth and Olympus. She doesn't care about the Universe. Her goal is to destroy Earth. She makes a general statement regarding the pillar's scale which is contradicted by absolutely nothing.

But let's see what other statements she makes.

  • "It's time for all that came before to end."
Persephone literally states that the Pillar's destruction will lead to everything that had ever come before in existence to end.

  • "Once the Pillar is destroyed, the world will revert into Chaos!"
Persephone states that the Pillar's destruction will lead to the world being reverted into Chaos - which is clarified by the novels to be the primordial void that preceded the creation of both the universe and the cosmos. This is a literal statement she makes regarding its true scale.

And finally, we have the Guidebook Entry on Atlas, which states he holds up the heavens/cosmos above his shoulders on God of War, which is literally contradicted by nothing.

The counter-arguments are simply completely laughable and ridiculous. Random statements that don't put a Limiter on the Pillar's scale are suddenly used against it as if it was relevant when it's not.

> The other feats such as Helios' supposed infinite speed light that lits up the supposedly infinite underworld is even worst, as the underworld is neither infinite, nor is Helios' speed that fast, as it quite literally would uniformily cover the whole underworld with it, which it doesn't.

The Underworld in its totality is stated by two different sources to be infinite in size - in God of War 1, one can even see stars in the background once the clouds pass. Saying "it isn't infinite' is just handwaving the evidence.

> Atlas never held the heavens and instead only the Earth, as we see in Chains of Olympus and God of War 2

We never see this. Atlas is located below the Earth, which doesn't mean that's all he supports. The guidebooks mention that the full scale of his burden is to all the universe/cosmos. This is uncontradicted. Using laughable and non-definite statements that are out of context and are meaningless doesn't contradict anything.

> I also like how literally all the scans about "Nyx' dimension" comes from a Twitter conversation with a dev and not the actual game. What happened to standards of evidence? What we can testify in the work itself matters far more than Twitter WoG. There are rules for this stuff.

The dimension can be seen in the actual game, dude. The game itself tells us it's a statue of Nyx when you step into it, and it's clear that it's a Portal.
 
Oh, the exact same "counter-arguments" as Acheron, it's almost like you became a mouthpiece. Wonderful.

Let's review them myself, shall we?
 
Also, the counter-argument against Helios defeating Nyx is completely ridiculous and makes me question whether or not we try to assassinate Occam's Razor on purpose, no offense.

Literally, the statement is made on God of War: Ascension, which is the EXACT same game that Nyx can be seen physically and where we see a portal to her personal space - with the developers confirming that they intended to portray Nyx as a Physical Primordial - but magically, the narrator saying in no unclear words that Helios forces Nyx to retreat is a "metaphor."

God of War has never, ever used a God's name to refer to anything else. Hades is a massive exception that traces back to myth and is deeply debated by circles on whether Hades received the name of the place to begin with.

Zeus' name is never used to refer to the sky, Poseidon's name is not used to refer to the oceans, Ares' name doesn't refer to war. This is ridiculous, unsubstantiated, and if I am honest makes me a bit disappointed.
 
"So, we use character statements saying the Pillar holds the world, and assume that's magically all that the statements can extend to without extra statements being taken into account, and ignore the context behind them."

No, Kep. Please, enough with this strawman answer. We assume it only holds up the world because in the actual game it is all it is stated to do, and all that we see it do, and it is also all that it can logically do. It cannot hold up the universe when the universe predated the pillar's construction and it is also inside the universe.

It's just a matter of having common sense, which is something you need to throw out the window to seriously believe it literally holds up the universe.

"Persephone's goal is to destroy Earth and Olympus. She doesn't care about the Universe. Her goal is to destroy Earth. She makes a general statement regarding the pillar's scale which is contradicted by absolutely nothing."

That is wonderful, Persephone's goal is to destroy Earth, Olympus and the Underworld, and this is why she goes after the Pillar, to achieve her goal. Trying to dismiss her word when virtually all the information about the pillar is delivered by her is ridiculous, you are inventing that she is unreliable and hiding information just for the sake of rating Kratos as higher.

"Persephone states that the Pillar's destruction will lead to the world being reverted into Chaos - which is clarified by the novels to be the primordial void that preceded the creation of both the universe and the cosmos. This is a literal statement she makes regarding its true scale."

Wonderful, a blanket term being assumed to only be able to mean one thing and one thing only, in this case a pre-universal void of nothingness. Despite the Chaos which we see the world return to at the end of God of War 3 only being High 6-A in scale.

Do you not realize how ludicrous this is? Persephone doesn't even bring up the word Chaos. You are just asserting it where it isn't, because it makes sense in your headcanon while there is no concrete proof in the actual game. "All will return to what it was before" isn't a feat. It's a blanket statement that contextually is only referring to the world and underworld. Not the whole universe.

"And finally, we have the Guidebook Entry on Atlas, which states he holds up the heavens/cosmos above his shoulders on God of War, which is literally contradicted by nothing."

Except... Literally everytime we see Atlas only holding up the flat Earth in the games themselves? Atlas holding up the heavens / cosmos comes from classic Greek Mythology about Atlas, which is not the case in God of War.

This is so obviously a case of misunderstanding among the writers of the guide, which shouldn't be taken as a primary canon source in the slightest here.

Atlas was punished by being chained in Tartarus with the other Titans, and only after Chains of Olympus he got put holding the world, thanks to Kratos too. There's no "holding up the cosmos as a burden" with Atlas. At all.

"The Underworld in its totality is stated by two different sources to be infinite in size - in God of War 1, one can even see stars in the background once the clouds pass. Saying "it isn't infinite' is just handwaving the evidence."

No, it is stated by an artist in a guidebook that he wanted to give a sensation of being "endless", by making it stretch beyond the horizon in the art. It isn't conclusive proof of being infinite in size at all. It is literally beneath the Earth.

And no, we don't see stars. That's literally a headcanon. We see vaguely discernible dots which are asserted to be stars despite the fact that they are beneath Kratos in the underworld. And even if that was the case it would scale to no one as the underworld would be destroyed by Earth crashing into it, not by universal collapse.

Helios' light is literally light from the sun. It doesn't move at Infinite Speed nor did it lit up the entire underworld in the way it is being described. This is less legit than the Pokémon feat about it illuminating the surface from the bottom of the ocean

"The dimension can be seen in the actual game, dude. The game itself tells us it's a statue of Nyx when you step into it, and it's clear that it's a Portal."

In the actual game we use a statue of Nyx to step through a portal, and enter someplace else. At no point do we receive any conclusive indication that:

  • This is another dimension
  • This is another dimension specifically created by the Goddess Nyx
  • It is a dimension with real stars and a real moon
All of that comes from Twitter Posts, and as such are not valid evidence for it. This is just the way it is. Trying to say it is in-game is the height of dishonesty.
 
"Literally, the statement is made on God of War: Ascension, which is the EXACT same game that Nyx can be seen physically"

Correctio, where we see a statue of Nyx.

"and where we see a portal to her personal space - with the developers confirming that they intended to portray Nyx as a Physical Primordial"

Correctio, where we use her statue to go to another space, which twitter comments say is her personal dimension

"but magically, the narrator saying in no unclear words that Helios forces Nyx to retreat is a "metaphor."

Contextually? Yes. Helios makes the night retreat by bringing the down. Even if we assume Nyx is the night sky, with all its stars and so forth, Helios wouldn't need to do shit to make her disappear, as the light of the sun would blot out the stars from appearing in the atmosphere. The natural process of night and day contradict the assessment that says Helios beats up Nyx every night. Which is ridiculous as she is a Primordial and he is a minor Olympian.
 
> Correction, where we see a statue of Nyx.

Which is the same thing. Don't nitpick.

> Correction, where we use her statue to go to another space, which twitter comments say is her personal dimension

False. There are two statues opposite to each other, one of which is a portal to Nyx's dimension, which you NEVER enter, and one clear opening.

> Contextually? Yes. Helios makes the night retreat by bringing the down. Even if we assume Nyx is the night sky, with all its stars and so forth, Helios wouldn't need to do shit to make her disappear, as the light of the sun would blot out the stars from appearing in the atmosphere. The natural process of night and day contradict the assessment that says Helios beats up Nyx every night. Which is ridiculous as she is a Primordial and he is a minor Olympian.

Which is completely false and utter headcanon because the actual statement is that Helios forces Nyx to retreat from the nightsky.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
All of that comes from Twitter Posts, and as such are not valid evidence for it.
Click to expand...
Can I ask why? I mean, if these posts are supporting evidence, I see nothing wrong with using them. Those are not Kamiya's tweets after all.
 
"Which is the same thing. Don't nitpick."

It isn't. A statue of Nyx isn't the Goddess Nyx herself. Just like the statue of Athena Kratos talks to isn't Athena herself, merely a vessel for her to communicate through.

"one of which is a portal to Nyx's dimension, which you NEVER enter, and one clear opening"

Objectively false. Nothing in the actual game suggests this magical interpretation of "Nyx's personal dimension", and a twitter statement from a writer certainly isn't qualified evidence for it to be accepted. No matter how much you try to act like it is depicted in-game, the fact is that it isn't, rendering the point moot. And the facts don't care about your feelings.

"Which is completely false and utter headcanon because the actual statement is that Helios forces Nyx to retreat from the nightsky."

Geez, what is the English Language. What is literary interpretation and what is metaphor. I guess the only possible interpretation is the utterly ludicrous idea that Helios has to beat up the night sky to bring the day...

Which is odd, because I thought God of War was supposed to have a realistic universe sans the Flat Earth... And the underworld literally suspended beneath it and held by a pillar... And the 100 mile tall mountain where the gods live. And the sun orbiting around the flat earth despite still being a regular star.

If God of War has a realistic universe Helios doesn't need to fight Nyx.
 
> No, Kep. Please, enough with this strawman answer. We assume it only holds up the world because in the actual game it is all it is stated to do, and all that we see it do, and it is also all that it can logically do. It cannot hold up the universe when the universe predated the pillar's construction and it is also inside the universe.

In the actual game, there are absolutely no statements that are conclusive and put a hard pin on the Pillar's scale. Persephone states it holds the world - it doesn't magically mean that's all the Pillar extends to. In fact, her very next statement is centered on destroying Olympus because her goal is to do so. That's exactly why Persephone enlisted Morpheus and Atlas for her task - they wanted to make the world be destroyed, so they make statements that fit their personal care.

Just like I can not get a random statement about Marvel Apollo where he tells the audience his Power can torch the Earth because that's what is convenient to both the audience and him to tell, even though he receives scaling and Supporting Lore that put him far above that.

We would only lowball it to only hold the world if there were nothing to suggest it held up more than that - which there are NUMEROUS statements suggesting as much. I have already told you why this argument regarding the pillar's positioning is a completely non-applicable and nitpicking.

For those who are not aware, the Pillar of the World is located on the Edge of the Planet - if we followed the logic of its positioning and ignored the mythical setting, we would get the conclusion that the other Edge of the World would topple and fall off from the pillar, because gravity would dictate as much.

But...that doesn't happen because the pillar is magical and prevents this from hapening.

> Except... Literally everytime we see Atlas only holding up the flat Earth in the games themselves? Atlas holding up the heavens / cosmos comes from classic Greek Mythology about Atlas, which is not the case in God of War.

The guidebook entry is an entry on GoW Atlas. It even includes Kratos as one of the entries.

> No, it is stated by an artist in a guidebook that he wanted to give a sensation of being "endless", by making it stretch beyond the horizon in the art. It isn't conclusive proof of being infinite in size at all. It is literally beneath the Earth.

False.

The artist states that he was given a description of what to do and then he listed off the features the Underworld was intended to have: no gravity, with things floating around, and an infinite distance in the back, which was even confirmed by Cory Barlog to be a literal statement.

> And no, we don't see stars. That's literally a headcanon. We see vaguely discernible dots which are asserted to be stars despite the fact that they are beneath Kratos in the underworld. And even if that was the case it would scale to no one as the underworld would be destroyed by Earth crashing into it, not by universal collapse.

We see dots of light in the background of the empty space visible. Trying to pass it off as anything other than what it blatantly is ridiculous and cherrypicking.

> Helios' light is literally light from the sun.

Completely and utterly false. The Primordial Fire is the source of Helios' powers, not the Sun. This distinction is explained by Eos in Chains of Olympus.
 
RebubleUselet said:
Can I ask why? I mean, if these posts are supporting evidence, I see nothing wrong with using them. Those are not Kamiya's tweets after all.
Click to expand...
Because in the case of Nyx, it is never suggested in-game. You see a statue of the goddess Nyx and you go through a portal into another place with stars in the sky. That's all that happens in-game.

Thanks to twitter quotes, though, it is apparently the literal dimension of the goddess nyx created by her. Do you see how this can be a problem?

It's far worse than Kamiya's tweet because at least we actually see Mundus do something in Devil May Cry 1. Here we see nothing.
 
Editing Rules:

"Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements from them that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable.

When a statement from a character, guidebook, or even word of god contradicts what occurs in the series, they won't be used. For example, if an author says that a character from his work is incapable of shattering planets, even though it has destroyed galaxies on-screen, we will always go with the latter, rather than the former. The statement need to be consistent with what has been revealed within the fictional franchise itself. Otherwise, it will be considered invalid.

Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate."
 
> Because in the case of Nyx, it is never suggested in-game. You see a statue of the goddess Nyx and you go through a portal into another place with stars in the sky. That's all that happens in-game.

You see a statue of Nyx, you see a portal that you need to avoid, and then you take a switch and the portal gets shut from your location. This is false.

It appears as if you're trying to make out the developers of the series, who answer the questions even when non-baited, to be some sort of ultimate trolls who are unreliable. Doesn't work that way here. Sorry.
 
Also, if people want me to list off series that use Supporting Twitter statements that are just there to support what the novels, games, comics or whatever say, I can.

It makes it clear that this rule is false and bogus and not how we do things.
 
My apologies, but we will not get rid of sensible working rules just because you like a specific verse. It would screw up lots of other situations down the line.

As staff, we have a responsibility to try our best to be unbiased in these types of situations.
 
Antvasima said:
My apologies, but we will not get rid of sensible working rules just because you like a specific verse. It would screw up lots of other situations down the line.
Click to expand...
It is more like the rule doesn't say what you think it says.
 
@Kepekley

What do you mean?
 
"In the actual game, there are absolutely no statements that are conclusive and put a hard pin on the Pillar's scale."

Actually, there are. All depictions of what the pillar does and statements of what is done in-game indicate something on a planetary scale. Just because no character turns to the camera and goes "And that's all it holds, please don't try to use statements from a facebook post to say it holds up the physical universe, okay?" followed by a wink, doesn't mean that's what it does. Context matters. Reasonable assumptions matter. And a direct, honest look at the game itself matters. All of which are thrown out of the window and into a bullet train railroad when you decide that just because no character says that the Pillar doesn't hold up the universe, that it suddenly can and does.

"Just like I can not get a random statement about Marvel Apollo where he tells the audience his Power can torch the Earth because that's what is convenient to both the audience and him to tell, even though he receives scaling and Supporting Lore that put him far above that."

Great fallacious argument here, wonderful. This is not the same thing. A character saying their power can destroy a planet or a city or whatever is a statement of what they can do. If there are better feats or scaling they can get higher. The pillar doesn't, all we have at stake is the plot of Chains of Olympus, which is that if the pillar is destroyed, the world will crash unto the underworld destroying both. Literally, physical crash with gravity here we're talking.

"For those who are not aware, the Pillar of the World is located on the Edge of the Planet - if we followed the logic of its positioning and ignored the mythical setting, we would get the conclusion that the other Edge of the World would topple and fall off from the pillar, because gravity would dictate as much."

The Edge of the World is frankly debatable because we see rock on all sides of the pillar, we literally do. You speak as if it is located on a literal edge and ready to make it crash. That's not what we see here. The pillar being 'magical' doesn't mean it can hold up the universe, that's a complete non-sequitur.

"The guidebook entry is an entry on GoW Atlas. It even includes Kratos as one of the entries."

The guidebook is irrelevant, and why does it matter that the guidebook has an entry on Kratos? Seriously, why? It's just a secondary source contradicted by the actual games where we know Atlas holds up the Earth alone as stated by every single source.

"The artist states that he was given a description of what to do and then he listed off the features the Underworld was intended to have: no gravity, with things floating around, and an infinite distance in the back, which was even confirmed by Cory Barlog to be a literal statement."

Oh, so the artist was wrong! Because the Underworld has gravity, indicated by the fact that you can jump in game and still fall at an observable gravity. Magical floating rocks don't show that there is no evidence, and a background with no discernible end doesn't mean something is infinite, you would think that would be well accepted by now. WoG on Twitter is irrelevant.

"We see dots of light in the background of the empty space visible. Trying to pass it off as anything other than what it blatantly is ridiculous and cherrypicking."

It's not an empty space, the space is literally red mist, and we have no indication that the Underworld has an outer space since it is literally beneath the Earth. If anything those stars - if they are stars - would be outside the underworld. All you're effectively arguing here is saying that it is "cherrypicking!" without making a case for yourself.
 
Antvasima said:
@Kepekley

What do you mean?
Click to expand...
The rules explicitly state that the statements can only not be accepted if they are vague, uncaring, and contradictory.

None of which apply.

If you want me t link a Digimon blog that is composed of nothing (literally nothing) but Twitter scans from a Reliable developer who answers questions, or franchises who already use confirmation of something that's stated, I will.
 
They don't apply because they don't corroborate on what we see in game and portray a scale of events FAR ahead of anything there!
 
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