Giorno vs Yubel

[IrMaXuS]

Only damage is reflected by Yubel. LOD is an event, therefore it cannot be "reflected". The best case for Yubel is if the damage she receives from each loop is transferred to Giorno.

Also, like I said before, I want to minimize the reliance on the card's effects and/or gameplay mechanics for YGO Monster's abilities. If I am to use game mechanics, then GER's ability to turn Yubel's will to fight (attack) to zero would logically be equivalent to making Yubel in "defense position" in which she cannot receive damage from and in turn, won't be able to reflect any damage to Giorno.

 

[Reppuzan]

@IrMaXuS

Considering the fact that the entire series revolves around a card game and its mechanics, that's not exactly an argument.

Plus, you can render a monster unable to attack but it can stay in Attack Position, so that argument is moot as well.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Effects are still active in face-up defense mode IIRC

 

[Aparajita]

Effects are still active in face-up defense mode IIRC

They are, yes.

By Verse Equalization, you have to go by the rules of both franchizes, including the Game and Card Mechanics of YGO.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

I'm not well versed in YGO, I only remember small bits from when I used to collect, but can Yubel reflect effects?

 

[Reppuzan]

@JustSomeWeirdo

I don't think so, since her effect only affects battle damage. But whatever damage she takes from the resulting effect of GER will be reflected back to Giorno as it is a direct attack on her.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

@JustSomeWeirdo
I don't think so, since her effect only affects battle damage. But whatever damage she takes from the resulting effect of GER will be reflected back to Giorno as it is a direct attack on her.

Then Giorno wins, the LOD would reflect the damage to whatever kills Yubel in each scenario since GER isn't actually attacking and neither is Giorno after triggering the LOD

 

[IrMaXuS]

@IrMaXuS
Considering the fact that the entire series revolves around a card game and its mechanics, that's not exactly an argument.

Plus, you can render a monster unable to attack but it can stay in Attack Position, so that argument is moot as well.

But when a card's effect mentions it cannot be destroyed in battle, won't that be an NLF? Because if we treat the game mechanics as absolute truths, even multiverse busters won't defeat a mere Marshmallon.

Also, a Monster in Attack position that is rendered unable to attack will still "fight back" if attacked. If you attack a Monster in Attack Position, irregardless of whether it can attack or not, it will destroy the attacking monster if its Atk stat is higher and the damage from that is considered as "battle damage" so we assume it's a fight. GER completely removes will to fight back, closest thing to that in YGO game mecahics would be Defense Position in my opinion.

 

[Reppuzan]

It would be, but Yubel can still be destroyed by card effects. Indirect hax like Reality Warping or Soul Destruction will kill her, but straight up brute force won't.

While GER is a hax ability, it relies on putting the target through an endless series of deaths caused by relatively mundane, albeit violent, means. These effects would be enough to trigger Yubel's effect since she still has an opponent.

Removing the will to fight in Yu-Gi-Oh is setting one's attack to 0. Since Yubel's Attack is already 0, that's kind of moot. In addition, being in Defense Position means that you're prepping yourself to defend against an enemy attack, which is the whole point of High DEF monsters. So once again, that won't work in a fight.

GER still has no counter for Super Polymerization, given that Yubel does not need to target Giorno specifically along with its failure to stop Made in Heaven.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im undecided about who I should choose right now but I agree with IrMaxus. The card effects of the YGO verse should be kept at a large minumium so that we can prevent a whole bunch of NLF's and possible outliers from happening. Otherwise if we took the game mechanics of YGO at face value, then-

-Exodia wouldnt have lost against Zorc given his "automatic" win ability. He would also be able to instant win against anyone vastly superior to him in all regards such as those from tier 2 to tier 0, not to mention stalemate against YGO's own Horakthy, which makes no sense.

-Any monster with a higher attack stat than Yubel, whose is 0, would be 5-C. Meaning even the weakest level monsters would become planet level like her, which is ridiculous.

-The card effects would be esstentially useless since they are only effective for the Holographic versions of a duel monster and it has been shown numerous times in the series that the real versions of the Monsters do not take their holographic counterparts abilities. Take the Egyptian Gods/Exodia vs Zorc as an example.

And so on

It would bring up a bunch of inconsistent outliers and NLF's

 

[Reppuzan]

@Professor

The problem with that logic is that the entire series runs on these mechanics. The inconsistencies are the problem with this type of anime since the plot will do anything that's convenient for it.

No, not every monster with 0 attack is Planet level. These stats were derived from Yubel curb stomping the Sacred Beasts, which are suppsoedly on par with the Egyptian God Cards. It helps that Yubel was designated as the guardian of The Supreme King and has to be this strong to be of any value. Scaling of card stats is obviously not functional, but card effects are the closest to power sets that we have.

Yubel is also different from the average card in that she's also a Duel Monster Spirit, meaning that she's able to manifest outside of her card. So no, her effects don't only apply to the card game. Will the plot forget this? Of course it will. Otherwise there would be no story after Yubel merged with Jaden and thus gave him all of her powers. It helps that she's made other card effects real, so it's only natural that she'd be able to apply this to her own.

Obviously we'll disregard things like "instant win" and limit application of things like "cannot be destroyed by battle". But as long as we keep it to a reasonable level, I don't see why we can't use the card effects. We might as well disregard all game abilities as "game mechanics" then, since Exdeath doesn't spam Death at everyone even though he's fully capable of it.

GER kills via fate and mundane things. None of them are able to overwhelm her Planet level feats.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Rep

Actually I wasnt refering to monsters other than Yubel being 0 in ATK, my fault for not being more specific. I was refering to Monsters with low ATK but still more than Yubel being planet level. For example, Marshmallon is a monster with an ATK of 300 and a Defense of 500. Going by YGO statistics, Maeshmallon would have greater power and AP than Yubel does who is only 0 in ATK. And we have Yubel rated at 5-C via her regular power. Are we really going to say that a mashmallon is above Planet Level?

Another example would be Dark Magician who's ATK points are vastly superior to Yubels. 2500 to be specific. And we only have him rated as Tier 8... IIRC.....

Finally, IDK if this would be an example of an Outlier so correct me if im wrong but, as you said, Yubel easily stomped monsters known as the Sacred Beasts, who are comparable to the Egyptian Gods. But if we go by card mechanics, the gods should be scaled higher than her due to having nearly 4-5000 ATK points each while she has none. But in the anime she's clearly shown to be much stronger by stomping equally powerful monsters as those 3. So which one takes presidence over the other? While its true that Yubel is a special case and not just "any" monster with 0 ATK should scale off of her, there is no way the Egyptain Gods who were once refered to being the strongest monsters in the game wouldnt be exceptions themselves, especially when they arent even at 0 ATK.

I never stated Yubel couldnt make her card effects real, I was saying in a In-General basis that the YGO verse overall doesnt have their card effects applied to their real forms, otherwise we would have seen Exodia stomp Zorc automatically or the Egyptain Gods use their card effects in the fight against him. If Yubel is an exception then of course this doesnt apply to her, considering she made Super Polymization real.

 

[Reppuzan]

We don't scale Pokemon off stats for the same reason as we don't scale Yu-Gi-Oh Cards off stats. They're also variable. For the reasons you described, we are not scaling anything else as Yubel is a clear outlier in terms of power vs stats. In addition, several of the most powerful cards canonically, such as Slifer the Sky Dragon and Horahkty, have "?" attack. We obviously aren't scaling cards off their stats, or else we'd have Planet level Tyranno Infinity.

Are any of the Yu-Gi-Oh Profiles scaled off card stats? If that's the case, they need to be changed.

 

[Beerus1000]

Ger stomps he will negate all of yubel action

 

[Omni-everything]

ger simply nullify effects of yubels attacks then destroy him/her with mftl punches

 

[Reppuzan]

@Beerus

GER hasn't been shown to negate passive effects nor has it shown to be able to affect things that don't target Giorno specifically like Made in Heaven.

@Omni-Everything

Yubel is Planet level. Giorno's punches aren't doing crud since GER runs on hax rather than AP. There's no indication that Giorno's striking strength grew with his Stand's power. GER's endless cycle of death may also backfire on Giorno given the fact that damage sent at Yubel gets sent back to her foe.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

snip

Im......not all too sure. When it comes to YGO im not too well a part of the disussions here about it. Here's a sugesstion. You could make a thread about it and then Highlight it for more input since, in terms of YGO, its quite a notable one. That may be the best option. But it's totally up to you however Rep.

 

[Johnny_Joestar_&_TUSK]

I should point out that GER's inability to stop MiH shouldn't be taken into consideration here because it was necessary for Part 6 to have any kind of climax. Pucci getting MiH and then suddenly finding out that it's merely an above average close-range type (stat-wise) with no ability (thanks to GER nullifying any chance of time acceleration occuring) would've made for a ridiculously poor ending.

On a similar note, Rohan Kishibe's MiH-based stats CAN be taken into account for these battles since it was a thing specifically said by characters in the story (whereas Giorno was simply mentioned off-hand in one of Araki's beginning-of-arc notes; "If all of DIO's sons are gathering around Pucci, wouldn't it make sense for Giorno to be nearby too? Maybe he is..." I'm paraphrasing but that was the basic gist of it).

 

[IrMaXuS]

@Reppuzan

Unless the Monster have been shown to apply their effects exactly as their card states outside of battle, then I'd prefer to not put the card's effect into play in these debates. For one, we won't exactly know how the card's effect and its application on the game mechanics will play out in a scenario outside of the game. For example, GER negating Yubel's will to fight into zero. You argue it would be equivalent to making her ATK zero and be unable to target an enemy monster (in this case GER/Giorno). But I argue that it'd make her in defense position making her unable to target AND fight back when attacked. Both makes sense to some degree, and there will be no definite answer to this. Also, another confusion this will make is how can we relate battle damage into actual fights? Battle damage does damage to the owner of the card, not the card monster itself. And reflecting battle damage also targets the owner of the attacking card, not the attacking card itself. In this debate, there are no card owners/players.

Anyway, in answer to GER's nullification of will to fight equating to making her ATK to 0. I would really find that odd. Because making a monster's ATK to 0 logically would be closest to removing her attack potency, NOT her will to fight. One could have literally 0 attack potency but fight back anyway. And regarding the thing about Def position, that's exactly what I'm getting to with my point. If GER removes her will to fight back and attack but not her will to live or survive, then naturally when GER comes in for the kill she'd have no choice but to prepare for the attack in a defensive way which is the closest thing to Defense Position. And since she has 0 defense, there'd be no battle damage incurred and therefore, no damage shall be reflected as her card effect states.

Also, isn't the Super Polymerization thing disregarded before since GER can just negate its activation? It doesn't matter if Yubel must target something or not, it's still an action for her to activate this move, and therefore would be negated by GER once it recognizes it is a threat.

 

[IrMaXuS]

Also, like Johnny already said, the "failure to stop MiH" shouldn't be used against GER. Because we don't even know if GER still existed at that point in time (the stand arrow falls off its head after the Diavolo fight iirc). And even if it is, GER could've really just protected Giorno and disregard everything else, just like it did in King Crimson's time erasure. In GER's point of view, everything else does not matter as long as itself and its user survives.

Unless there's a confirmation that Giorno/GER tried to stop MiH and failing to do so, everything about it is just speculation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This^

There are no duelists/owners in this fight but for Yubel specifically, Jaden isnt here to give her commands and even then, despite Yubel being able to canonically duel by herself, no other monster in YGO is of the same caliber and should not be given the same treatment

Furthermore, if taking in the card effects, not only would we have to define how long a "turn" would be since it generally ignores speed feats, we would also be forced to use the holographic monsters as the real monsters do not have the card effects as a part of their powers.

 

[Reppuzan]

@IrMaXuS

As far as I know, there isn't a single instance of a Requiem Stand reverting to its previous form after being struck with the Arrow. Granted, I'm not a JoJo expert by any means, but I don't think a stand just fades away after evolving even after the arrowhead is removed (as seen with Bites the Dust).

Yubel's ability isn't about fighting back. She's a sadomasochist who takes the pain she feels and transmits it back to her foe to show her "love".

@Johnny Joestar

By the same logic, we should definitely take Yubel's powers as a Duel Monster into account as she is a Duel Monster Spirit, with all the powers her card uses since they generally aren't used in the story for plot convenience.

This thread has been derailed and turned into a discussion on what Yubel can and cannot do. So I'm seriously tempted to just close this and be done with it since no one else seems to have anything to offer.

 

[IrMaXuS]

@IrMaXuS
As far as I know, there isn't a single instance of a Requiem Stand reverting to its previous form after being struck with the Arrow. Granted, I'm not a JoJo expert by any means, but I don't think a stand just fades away after evolving even after the arrowhead is removed (as seen with Bites the Dust).

Yubel's ability isn't about fighting back. She's a sadomasochist who takes the pain she feels and transmits it back to her foe to show her "love".

Thing is, there isn't that many Requiem stands to base information off. Also, Bites the Dust is similar to a Requiem stand, but isn't really one. Either way, as I said, GER still could've just protected Giorno himself like it did in the Time Erasure.

My point is, if Yubel ends up in Def position, Yubel won't be reflecting "battle damage" if no battle damage is even incurred. A battle involving a 0 defense monster in defense position would deal 0 battle damage to both parties involved.

Also, fights involving combatants winning mostly by hax would inevitably tend to go to a discussion of what they can or cannot do (with their respective hax). What I dislike about this thread is that the uncertainty of dealing with application of game mechanics to actual fights makes the whole fight a huge speculation.

Going only by what Yubel has apparently shown outside battle, I can really see GER winning this though. Super Polymerization would be negated. GER then proceeds to LOD punch. As I've seen in threads involving GER and universal adversaries, it seems that we've come to accept that conventional durability won't matter against the LOD punch (Though I really want to know the explanation for this)

 

[Tom_Do]

It is stated in the Yu gi oh page that card mechanics cannot be used as feats, if it was then Yubel stomps so hard due to very sketchy scaling:

Light and Darkness dragon with infinite attack > GER because LADD according to game mechanics can negate effects of multiversal threats.

LADD cant negate the actual activation of spells, just their effects.

If we go by feats GER stomps.

 

[Johnny_Joestar_&_TUSK]

I have an explanation for the LoD punch ignoring durability but it's a bit wishy-washy. It has to do with the life giving ability. Remember when Giorno fights Bruno at the beginning, he punches him with Gold Experience and infuses him with life energy, so much so that Bruno's senses go wildly out of control and he hallucinates his own victory while in reality he's left drooling on the floor, unable to avoid the next GE barrage? The theory is that since GER was shown to retain the life giving power, its punches now deliver so much life that the physical body can't withstand it and just completely BSODs (at which point the loop activates). Its stat page does say Strength: NONE, after all, so it's kind of plausible to think that GER'S punches don't deal actual damage and instead just infuse life (though normal GE does do physical damage so ehhh).

In the manga the point at which the loop would activate is after Diavolo gets punched over the bridge by Giorno (and then either infinite pocket realities are created for Diavolo's deaths, or his consciousness is shifted through each of his multiverse parallels at their point of death so he experiences it, not super clear).

Not an amazing explanation but I haven't seen that many, and it... seems to make sense in relation to what we're shown? I think?

 

[Omni-everything]

@Omni-Everything

Yubel is Planet level. Giorno's punches aren't doing crud since GER runs on hax rather than AP. There's no indication that Giorno's striking strength grew with his Stand's power. GER's endless cycle of death may also backfire on Giorno given the fact that damage sent at Yubel gets sent back to her foe.

why would it backfire when ger auto protects giorno plus giorno still retain his life creation giorno needs just a part of his body plus how come yubel became a planetary level when his/her def is 0

 

[Lance_Tennant]

// Hmmm.... with the current debate that's going on, I'll need to look up Yubel's feats, and make sure they're canon. It'll take me a while.

 

[Jeune_fou]

// Hmmm.... with the current debate that's going on, I'll need to look up Yubel's feats, and make sure they're canon. It'll take me a while.

Yubel's feats are canon. I took hundreads of screenshots myself when I talked about her powers and about a few of "her" feats in this thread (when her profile didn't exist yet).

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/419200

 

[Jeune_fou]

@Omni-Everything

Yubel is Planet level. Giorno's punches aren't doing crud since GER runs on hax rather than AP. There's no indication that Giorno's striking strength grew with his Stand's power. GER's endless cycle of death may also backfire on Giorno given the fact that damage sent at Yubel gets sent back to her foe.

why would it backfire when ger auto protects giorno plus giorno still retain his life creation giorno needs just a part of his body plus how come yubel became a planetary level when his/her def is 0

ATK and DEF are meaningless when it comes to duel monsters' feats.

Look at constellar sombres for example, he is a monster with an ATK of 1550 and a DEF of 1600 and he is universe + level: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Constellar_Sombres?venotify=created

And easily 2/3 of monsters' stats are greater than his (in terms of ATK/DEF).

 

[Jeune_fou]

// Hmmm.... with the current debate that's going on, I'll need to look up Yubel's feats, and make sure they're canon. It'll take me a while.

For Yubel's feats we have:


the time she defeated the 3 sacred beats (AKA the 3 "phantom demons"). Who are just as powerful as egyptian gods who are planet level. And she defeated them while she possessed a weak and fragile human (Martin). She defeated them in a few seconds using only "her" aura. She didn't even physically touch them.

I took screenshots of that here (the screenshots also directly state the scared beasts are as strong as egyptian gods ... also there are screenshots of her nullifying Exodia's power (who's another planet level character) when she was in Johan's body (so weaker than "her" real body) AND weakened: http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/u2jtcw60vh65zgf47ud58hcu79xp15av


Here we have screenshots I took that show Yubel has reality warping abilities. And she can use them even without a fuctional body (when she was in her eye form). Here she changed holograms into real serpents for example: http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/tib9rxcr7wr51j4wrz0kb7bewb53dvz6


We know she has "creation" abilities because she created at least the hundreads of death belts (aka bio-bands in the english dub): http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/dzlim95sltkzxipqbpheuxqygr2gdddq

We know it's true because once students who used them were not in the same universe than her, then their death belts started to turn into dust (and that's mentionned in Yubel's weakness on "her" profile: objects she created can continue to exist only as long as they're in the same universe than her).


Then when it comes to the force of "her" punches who can cause earthquakes, I once again took screenshots of that (she was in Martin's body btw: and he is known to be weak and fragile): http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/xcygbzuspew8q1ourbbbxkcua0kqpgvm


Here we have screenshots that show she can teleport "herself" and/or others on a multi universal scale: http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/v1nuncfvqkivb5rh7g0fbz6yuq1y4hdz


Here we have screnshots that show she created a dark space in which she trapped Johan's soul: http://www.imagebam.com/image/2f1ab1502731988

+ other screenshtos related to her soul manipulation abilities: http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/w1v5ze6ygjb3z0gmxipiow6ljz0w4no0


And here we have the screenshot when Yubel claims she can send someone in an interval between space and time: http://www.imagebam.com/image/696076502730922


And here, I took screenshots of all time she talked about her project to fuse/destroy the 12 dimensions: http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/1337mks44ugnbuevr60etgeqatfsgpth


Btw: we know they're universe size because one of them is the "normal universe" who's just as big as our universe (and we know it happens in a fictional version of our universe because there are references to things that exist in our world such as the eiffel tower and many other real life existing things).


Alright so no need to search: you already have all proofs you need to see her feats are canon.

 

[Jeune_fou]

Ah also here there are screenshots of ALL times dimensions/universes are mentionned in seaon 3 and 4 of yu gi oh gx: http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/l8rbsaot4g0xtueklu54r1yvjf83eexz

So yeah, most of Yubel's feats/abilities are not even related to her card effect. And also Yubel should technically be an exception to the "no game mechanic should be used":

Yubel can fuse (without Super poly ... so this is part of her powers) with the actual summoned Yubel that comes from the card (like you can see on the last pic): http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/xqb43nyjvl1nxka8lc7kblo1zbgy9q06

Which means she can gain powers from her monster card's effects if she wants (on that last pic she fused with Yubel the ultimate nightmare).

Here's Yubel the ultimate nightmare's effect (anime version): http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Yubel_-_The_Ultimate_Nightmare_(anime)

Anyway even if we do not count Yubel's card effect and rely solely on her feats she has still some very impressive powers for a character who comes from a card game anime.


Edit: more pics of Yubel fusing with the Yubel from the card: http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/8ps2n65n5o3qcpyvmryhkp5a0c1h4vjd

 

[IrMaXuS]

@Jeune fou

Main problem for Yubel is, unless she is proven to be acausal, all of the feats you've mentioned become meaningless as when Yubel tries to attempt to use them against Giorno, her action becomes negated.

GER/Giorno have dealt with multi-universal reality warpers and won the match before, this shouldn't be much different from those matches.


EDIT:

Okay, I just realized Jeune's posts were for confirmation for Yubel's stats and abilities. I assumed you were arguing for Yubel's victory with those feats lol

 

[Jeune_fou]

I wasn't arguing. Giorno will most likely win the fight because of his OP power. Like you said, that was just to confirm her stats and also to make sure Lancer Tennant will not lose days searching for proofs Yubel's feats are canon.

Talking about acausality, that reminds I made a thread about acausality in yu gi oh 5D's. Apparently there are many characters who are acausal in that generation: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/457633

But yeah that doesn't concern Yubel.