Giorno Giovanna vs Misogi Kumagawa

[Tivanenk]

A) No he doesn't need to do that. It could be that the effect of no color is just limited to a certain range around him where color cannot be perceived no matter what, because it doesn't exist within tht range. For instance, there are MANY time stoppers in manga whose time stop is only limited to a very certain range (e.g. Esdeath). In real life, that wouldn't work because the area would essentially divert into a different time stream altogether.

B) Never did I once remember him saying that he would be able to erase all of existence, just the world. That doesn't prove a universal scope.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that you are grasping. All laws of physics in the universe are connected. I see Kumagawa's erasure of the very concept of colour as no different from when Emperor Joker did the same thing.

 

[Tivanenk]

I'm not grasping though, I even provided examples of things counter to what you say. And come on, you're trying to bring RL knowledge into fiction already. Listen, All Fiction could have a limited range of effect. It doesn't state anywhere that it works on a universal range. Esdeath's Mahapadma is limited to a range. Almighty Adam Blade's history manipulation has a limited range. So does Femto.

I mean, come on. How can you say that all laws of physics are connected with a straight face when Kumagawa breaks these very same laws constantly?

Emperor Joker has proven to have a universal range, or at least I assume (haven't read DC). Kumagawa has not done that.

 

[KamiYasha]

Esdeath's Mahapadma is limited to a range.

Proof?

I'm not saying that has a universal time stop, but it never has been stated or demonstrated her range.

 

[Tivanenk]

Esdeath's Mahapadma is limited to a range.

Proof?
I'm not saying that has a universal time stop, but it never has been stated or demonstrated her range.

Proof that it does? It's based off her using her ice abilities to freeze time. Unless she's able to do that across the entire universe, she can't stop time across the entirety of it. And that would make Esdeath universal, which.... yeah, I don't think I need to explain what's wrong with that.

 

[KamiYasha]

Stopping time at a universal scale wouldn't make her universal at all.

Dio Brando can stop time at a universal scale and he isn't universal whatsoever.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Just the time stops"s range would be universal not herself as @KamiYasha pointed out

 

[Tivanenk]

Dio's time stop works differently though. He stops time by manipulating time itself. That in itself is conceptual manipulation of time. Esdeath, however, freezes time with her ice to simulate a time stop. She doesn't actually manipulate time. So she would need to have universal ice abilities to be able to freeze time across the entire universe.

I'm sure someone like A6colute would be able to explain her ability much better than me, but that's the gist.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, erasing something as fundamental as the very concept of colour from existence always read to me as requiring to affect the laws of the entire spacetime continuum, whereas merely manipulating local reality to change the shape and structure of things does not. Negating the light that reaches a planet is very different from negating the concept of colour itself.

In addition, this fits with the scale Medaka and Najimi being stated as capable of creating universes or Najimi transcending to higher-dimensional space. He was able to seal a being of Najimi's caliber, which would not have been possible if he was simply capable of affecting planets.

I am however curious to whether it was explicitly mentioned that Kumagawa could destroy reality itself, or the word "world" was used, which can be interpeted the same way or as something less. I remember the page with reality represented as shattering and crumbling into a white background around Kumagawa, but couldn't find the specific chapter when I checked. Can somebody else find the page?

 

[KamiYasha]

Dio's time stop works differently though. He stops time by manipulating time itself. That in itself is conceptual manipulation of time. Esdeath, however, freezes time with her ice to simulate a time stop. She doesn't actually manipulate time. So she would need to have universal ice abilities to be able to freeze time across the entire universe.

So far her ability hasn't been explained at all. The only thing we know is that she learned how to "freeze time" in order to avoid that tatsumi wouldn't escape from her. (all of this pretty casual)

Either way the range of her ability hasn't been demonstrated so far.

Stop...Too Off-Topic

 

[Tivanenk]

@kamiyasha Well, it wouldn't make sense for her time stop not be related to her ice abilities. But you're right, off topic.

@antvasima Here's another example: Ainz from Overlord. He has many abilities that affect space, time, concepts, and reality itself. However, it was stated in the LN (and maybe in the anime, didn't watch it), that his abilities are limited to a certain range. Items as well.

Also, bringing in Najimi? Really? She NEVER EVER uses those abilities in the series. EVER. Even in life and death situations like with Iihiko, she never used those awesome abilities. Yeah, they were listed. But so what? She never uses them. Why should she use them against Kumagawa? And Medaka was beating his ass even prior to getting the better forms (like Hybrid God, or god forbid, End God modes), again how did she do it? Because it's a gag manga. We can't really compare Kumagawa to someone like Ajimu or Medaka in this case. Unless he's been shown to directly resist those abilities.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Najimi was written to use all of those abilities on page, and Kumagawa overcame them to seal most of her power off.

So from the overall context, both in relation to the power levels of other characters, that erasing a concept should logically require to at least affect the entire local continuum, Medaka's dread towards his power in conjunction with the reality or "world" mention, and that he is supposed to symbolise reader detachment and apathy, my impression is that "reality"/the entire fiction that he is a part of is treated as just as mentally disposable to him.

Everything is perceived as fiction to him, and as usual for this manga his ability and its scale is an expression of that.

 

[Tivanenk]

What the? Since when? I need scans for that. I've read Medaka Box and don't remember it ever being written that Najimi used all of her abilities against Kumagawa.

Medaka also dreaded Gagamaru's Encounter as well, is that universal in range? She's dreaded several abilities throughout the series, Kumagawa isn't some special snowflake in this case.

If that's the case, why was Kumagawa crapping his pants from star busting?

 

[KamiYasha]

@Ant.

IIRC, I think the page that you mentioned was on his first apparition or in his fight against zenkichi.

 

[Antvasima]

I meant that to stop the force of an ability you must use a sufficiently powerful seal to keep them contained.

Please show a scan of Kumagawa in awe rather than surprise from his memory-copy of Najimi destroying an imaginary star in his head, and explain why he should do so when it was just imaginary and he has seen the real Najimi do far more impressive things?

 

[Antvasima]

@KamiYasha Can you find the scan please?

 

[Tivanenk]

I have a question before that though: do you agree with higher dimensional Iihiko?

 

[KamiYasha]

@Ant.

I think is this the moment that you recall? here , here and here

 

[Antvasima]

@KamiYasha No that is not it. I recall an image of the background shattering and falling apart behind him.

@Tivanenk I have no idea. According to Medaka he was, but according to the story he was simply that dangerous due to being an extremely prominent main character that the plot required to win.

 

[Antvasima]

Don't try to divert the topics through rhetorical trickery though. I strongly dislike that kind of thing.

 

[Tivanenk]

The biggest problem with Medaka Box, when tiering, is that you have to remember it's a gag manga. In my opinion, unless something is shown to happen on screen, I usually take this with a grain of salt.

But I believe I have got off topic, whether Kumagawa is universal or planetary shouldn't matter, Giorno still beats him. As seen in the scans posted by KamiYasha, Kumagawa has reality warping (more specifically, reality erasure). He's not immune to nor does he control causality. He's vulnerable to GER. Even if he's allowed to resurrect, you have to remember this: if you die once against GER, you die forever. You're stuck in a death loop. Kumagawa's abilities personally remind me somewhat of King Crimson. And he was murked by GER.

 

[Blahblah9755]

But Kumagawa can just erase the original attack that killed him, no? Or the way he was killed(e.g. Punches) after he'd already died to stop the infinite death loop from ever starting.

 

[Tivanenk]

But Kumagawa can just erase the original attack that killed him, no? Or the way he was killed(e.g. Punches) after he'd already died to stop the infinite death loop from ever starting.

Can't do that. His will is erased. Meaning that he won't even have a notion of trying to erase the attack. He won't have the will for it.

 

[Blahblah9755]

But is his will erased post death? From what they were saying earlier it sounds like there's no feat of him erasing the will of someone in their death loop

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he could technically just undo the loop or the attack itself. As far as I am aware conceptual manipulation is considerably above mere reality warping. I am uncertain how it compares with causality manipulation however.

 

[Tivanenk]

@antvasima

Yeah, but GER has the extra benefit of being able to erase will itself. Meaning that Kumagawa won't even want to do anything. And GER is faster because it transcends space-time itself.

 

[KamiYasha]

@Ant. I will try to find it. He has a lot of panels with a distorted background.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, Kumagawa's will being reduced would just activate his ability to negate everything, as it is directly proportional in strength to the amount of apathy, nothingness, and nihilism that he feels.

Anyway, please show me proof of GER transcending spacetime, and that it possesses true causality manipulation, not just the limited version possessed by characters like Black Cat or Longshot.

 

[Tivanenk]

@antvasima

I will do that, but how do I link images from other sites onto here? The proof of GER transcending space-time comes from him being able to function in erased time.

 

[Antvasima]

You simply paste the links with reversed ][ signs around them.

Regardless, I want some scans for that. Also, being able to function in timeless space could simply be a function of possessing protection from a personal small continuum due to his stand, or be some other form of hax. It does not automatically classify him as a higher-dimensional entity unless explicitly stated.

 

[Tivanenk]

Giorno is not 5-dimensional, his stand is.

[1]

[2]

As you can see above, his stand, GER, is able to move and talk despite time being erased. This means that time doesn't matter to him. What hax? Gold Experience never showed any hax that allows him to function in erased time. You can't just think up of stuff from thin air when it was never displayed that he had such hax. He just can move in space-time because he transcends it.

[3]

Also, after GER is finished all of his actions have been set to 0.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I should mention that Medaka Box is not a mere gag manga. It is a metafictional dissection of fiction conveniences and the readers that consume them.

 

[Antvasima]

Was it ever stated why exactly he could move in erased time, or are you speculating? All of the above scans come across as quite vague to me. I will have to ask DarkLK about it.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

Transcending space-time =/= being 5th dimensional though Arceus from Pokemon was born from a void of nothingness and later created the concepts that doesn't mean he's 5 dimensional

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am going to bed now in any case.

 

[Tivanenk]

@antvasima No. But if he can move in erased time, then time doesn't matter to him in the first place. He wasn't stated to have any hax whatsoever that can counter this. It means that he transcends the concept itself.

@chillvibezz Is time irrelevent to Arceus? As in, can Arceus function outside of time itself? Then yeah it's 5-dimensional too. If time is irrelevent to you, then you're naturally 5 dimensional.

I mean, come on, everyone on AnimeVice knows this.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't tend to pay much faith in "everybody"/common community opinions, expecially in very vague cases such as this. I have asked DarkLK about this. Him I have faith in.

 

[CHILLVIBEZZ]

@Tivanenk

All Titans from Saint Seiya are unfazed by space-time reversal again existing outside the space-time continuum like Zeedmilliniumon or many characters does not remotely mean you are transcending it

 

[Antvasima]

Here is what DarkLK says regarding the subject: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/186263

 

[Tivanenk]

@chillvibezz I do not know the subject material you're talking about. You would have to post scans. But the thing is, I do remember Titans from Saint Seiya (and other characters) are granted resistance to nearly everything through their Cosmo. So they're different. Their Cosmo protects them. GER is a special case. I doesn't have any abilities that allow it to resist such effects, so it has to transcend them.