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Giorno Giovanna vs Misogi Kumagawa

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In my opinion, Kumagawa. His All Fiction is pretty broken, and if I'm not mistaken he has conceptual manipulation which is beyond Giorno and anything in JoJo universe.
 
I vote either Kumagawa takes it thanks to concept manipulation or it's inconclusive because they both have instant actions that can negate their opponent's actions.
 
Kumagawa is impossible to destroy for somebody of Giorno's level, and can negate the effect of any concept including time, so I don't see it nearly as that clear-cut.
 
Antvasima said:
Kumagawa is impossible to destroy for somebody of Giorno's level, and can negate rhe effect of any concept including time, so I don't see it nearly as that clear-cut.
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So how do you beat Kumagawa then any characters you know of :/
 
Characters with a higher level of conceptual manipulation than he has. He has been stated to be able to affect all of existence, but that could easily just mean a single universal spacetime continuum.
 
There are a few other methods as well, like destroying the universe should work on kumagawa.

Aside from that I would believe soul attacks, that completly destroy the soul would work. His ability revives him after going in a meta-physical state (similar to afterlife), it is well imaginable that he can not do so if even his soul/afterlife self is destroyed.

Aside from that non lethal methods of victory, like sealing him in an unconcious form or BFR can work well. Mind attacks in a form that hinder him of removing them with his ability (mind control or similar) can also effectively end the battle in ones favor.
 
DontTalk said:
There are a few other methods as well, like destroying the universe should work on kumagawa.
Aside from that I would believe soul attacks, that completly destroy the soul would work. His ability revives him after going in a meta-physical state (similar to afterlife), it is well imaginable that he can not do so if even his soul/afterlife self is destroyed.

Aside from that non lethal methods of victory, like sealing him in an unconcious form or BFR can work well. Mind attacks in a form that hinder him of removing them with his ability (mind control or similar) can also effectively end the battle in ones favor.
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hmmm thx for the info @Don't Talk and @ Ant
 
Antvasima said:
Kumagawa is impossible to destroy for somebody of Giorno's level, and can negate the effect of any concept including time, so I don't see it nearly as that clear-cut.
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Doesn't matter as GER exist outside space and time.
 
GreatestSin said:
^if this is the case than kumogawa still wins, he can use all-fiction on the user of GER :)
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Not exactly, because first, according to all the JoJo rules of Stands, all of them protects their user (basically, the most important rule for a Stand, with the exception of Notorious BIG and Cheap Trick), he cannot use All Fiction on Giorno because GER wouldn't allow it, since Giorno and GER are one with each other.

The other thing to mention is from Kumagawa itself: "He admits that he doesn't have full control of his power" from the MB wikia, and that Kumagawa is physically weak, this pretty much sets GER victory, mostly because of the fact that GER has speed and range much, much above Kumagawa limits, as well reaction time, the only way Kumagawa can win is if he runs like a bitch out of Giorno range, and writes a way to rewrite GER abilities, assuming GER wouldn't have speedblitzed it, destroyed, and hobo shanked (and also nullified his intent) so basically, the battle in a logical way, is much for Giorno's favour ;)
 
^GER cant kill komogawa since allfiction can negate death even after the user himself literally died, that means that at most this would end in a draw,

furthermore, i know that stands protect the user but if GER cant autamatically use his own special hax (nullify-hax) than i dont see how it will protect giorno from being erased out of existence :) (if it can than this will simply end in a draw :I (or GER can affect even kumogawa after he died and nullifys his intend to resurrect himself, than it would be GER's win)) ^_^
 
Haiz... as a reader of both MB and JJBA, i still say this is a inconclusive match

Doesn't matter as GER exist outside space and time.

So what ? >__> yeah, GER can exist outside the time and space, that's why he have the infinite speed but what is he gonna do to keep Misogi to stay dead ?

Here's the problem :

You can kill Kumagawa, but he cant stay dead

Even if Giorno setup a death loop on him, Misogi can still erase that death loop once he realized he was in one. Unless Giorno show some feat that can reduce the will of the dead in to 0 (which he doesnt), i dont see how he can win this

^if this is the case than kumogawa still wins, he can use all-fiction on the user of GER :)

What's the point of doing that ? >__> GER exist outside of time and space and doesnt require the user to exist ( See SCR), if Misogi use the All fiction on Giorno, GER will still turn all of those action into 0. Even if you build a time machine and kill Giorno when he was still a baby, all of those action will be return to 0.

The other thing to mention is from Kumagawa itself: "He admits that he doesn't have full control of his power"

So what ? >__> he doesnt has the full control of AF but let list everything he can do with the AF :

>Erase his own death

>Erase the time and give himself the instant speed

>Erase the existing of a concept of the reality (Turn entire anime into black and white by erase the concept of color

and many more, but all of those is already enough to say nope to GER's hax

and that Kumagawa is physically weak, this pretty much sets GER victory

He is physically weak, but that doesnt prove GER can win because Kumagawa can revive any time he want


only way Kumagawa can win is if he runs like a bitch out of Giorno range, and writes a way to rewrite GER abilities, assuming GER wouldn't have speedblitzed it

How is that even possible ? :| GER has the infinte speed and can erase all of Misogi action when he's trying to run away

So yeah, i'm still voting for a inconclusive
 
Actually GER turns you powerless in every stat, once he kill Kumagawa, he will lost all his power including all fiction. He did the same with Diavolo who wasn't able to use King Crimson. Also GER turns willpower 0, so Kumagawa himself would never be able to try to use All Fuction as he will no will/intention to fight.

GER is too much for him.
 
Guys, guys, guys. You either don't know how GER works or are massively underrating it.

Giorno wins this easily, here's why: he manipulates causality. Now, the only way to resist this is either be immune to causality (like Guts from Berserk) or transcend causality (like D from Vampire Hunter D). How does one transcend causality? Well, you need to be outside the boundary of time itself. Manipulating causality is in essence manipulating will and actions in time itself. Kumagawa is bound to time.

Look at it like this, GER erases the effect of any will or action.

For instance, let's say that Kumagawa tries to erase Giorno:

Cause: Wants to erase Giorno via All-Fiction

Effect: Erases Giorno via All-Fiction

GER nullifies the effect, any time that Kumagawa wants to use All-Fiction, he won't be able to since GER negates the effect. This even applies to Kumagawa's death, Kumagawa won't be able to revive because GER will negate the effect of revival. So GER CAN put Kumagawa down for good.

Honestly, there's nothing Kumagawa can do here. His All-Fiction is just a variant of reality warping, while GER is a variant of causality manipulation. Causality manipulation trumps reality warping, always.

Also doesn't help that it can turn someone's will to 0, so Kumagawa won't even want to fight.
 
Tivanenk said:
Guys, guys, guys. You either don't know how GER works or are massively underrating it.

Giorno wins this easily, here's why: he manipulates causality. Now, the only way to resist this is either be immune to causality (like Guts from Berserk) or transcend causality (like D from Vampire Hunter D). How does one transcend causality? Well, you need to be outside the boundary of time itself. Manipulating causality is in essence manipulating will and actions in time itself. Kumagawa is bound to time.

Look at it like this, GER erases the effect of any will or action.

For instance, let's say that Kumagawa tries to erase Giorno:

Cause: Wants to erase Giorno via All-Fiction

Effect: Erases Giorno via All-Fiction

GER nullifies the effect, any time that Kumagawa wants to use All-Fiction, he won't be able to since GER negates the effect. This even applies to Kumagawa's death, Kumagawa won't be able to revive because GER will negate the effect of revival. So GER CAN put Kumagawa down for good.

Honestly, there's nothing Kumagawa can do here. His All-Fiction is just a variant of reality warping, while GER is a variant of causality manipulation. Causality manipulation trumps reality warping, always.

Also doesn't help that it can turn someone's will to 0, so Kumagawa won't even want to fight.
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You also forgot event negation and nothigness manipulation of GER.

I highly doubt D and Guts can resist GER.
 
@Tivanenk:

"Causality manipulation trumps reality warping, always." Not that I care about this battle or have the knowledge to discuss it but this statement is pretty wrong.

Reality warping > most other abilities. At least in its truest sense. Causality manipulation is only an aspect of logic manipulation. Both are but an aspect of reality, which also includes things that don´t follow directly from it like math, energy, matter, time, concepts and space. Logic manipulation is an aspect of reality warping in its truest sense, but the term is often misused for things like high end matter and energy manipulation as well as conceptual manipulation, which can seem similar.


That aside what kumagawa has is a kind of conceptual manipulation and not reality warping. Conceptual manipulation is not necessarily below causality manipulation as well btw.

So just about the general statements here.
 
@donttalk

Causality Manipulation manipulates the nature and order of events, if you think that causality manipulation is one of the powers that a reality warper has, it would be like trying to cook by breaking the stove-top, it wouldn't work.

Action of reality warper (cause) -> Reality warped (effect). What you're suggesting is: Action of reality warper (cause) -> Causality bent (effect)

You see? The action of trying to bend causality in itself falls under causality, creating a massive paradox and is therefore an impossibility.

It doesn't matter how many universes you can turn into a sandwich, causality manipulation has no scale in the first place, it's not like DC or reality warping, it simply manipulates events, and every time Kumagawa tries to do something, it will be negated.

Also, I'd like proof on:

A) That Kumagawa's All Fiction is conceptual manipulation and not reality warping

B) That Kumagawa's All Fiction can destroy the universe (it only mentions the "world", which can also mean simply Earth - he was impressed when a star blew up, that's evidence he isn't even universal)
 
^A: cant be proofed, if something is conceptional manipulation than it is a minor and specialized form of reality warping, that means conceptional manipulation is reality warping but specialized and limited with certain rules...

B: kumogara erased all colors in the universe until only black existet (which isnt a color btw), that means that he is universe-scale if he takes away fundamental aspects of reality (for exampe he could have taken the concept of "two different polls (positive and negative) will atract each other" away which will cause chaos in the whole universe) ^_^
 
GreatestSin said:
^A: cant be proofed, if something is conceptional manipulation than it is a minor and specialized form of reality warping, that means conceptional manipulation is reality warping but specialized and limited with certain rules...
B: kumogara erased all colors in the universe until only black existet (which isnt a color btw), that means that he is universe-scale if he takes away fundamental aspects of reality (for exampe he could have taken the concept of "two different polls (positive and negative) will atract each other" away which will cause chaos in the whole universe) ^_^
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Where did he ever say that he erased all the colors in the universe and NOT "all the colors in the world" (which is different by the way). World can also mean human world a.k.a. Earth (in fact, it is more frequently known as such)
 
^his ability isnt limited by scale or range, kumogawa used allfiction and erased the very concept of the color green and than of any other color until only white and black existed, than he erased white too ^_^ i highly doubt that something like that is limted on a planet :I

PS: maybe he even said "erased all colors in the universe but i dont relly remember anymore :(
 
GreatestSin said:
^hiw ability isnt limited by scale or range, kumogawa used allfiction and erased the very concept of the color green and than of any other color until only white and black existed, than he erased white too... and if the concept of something is erased than it works on universal-scale since colors exist everywhere ^_^
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Proof that it isn't limited by scale or range. He was shocked when Ajimu erased a star. Why would he be shocked if his scope is universal?
 
^he erased the concept of colors, that means colors got taken out of exsitence, not in a certain place(like a city or world) but from their conceptional-lvl(from rality itself), that means they cant exist since he took it away, it is the same if he uses his powers and erases the concept of death, it wouldnt be limited to the earth, nothing in the universe would be able to die since "death" doesnt exist anymore :)
 
So you can't present proof that All Fiction's range isn't limited? For all we know, he could have just erased colour around the Earth.
 
GreatestSin said:
^he erased the concept of colors, that is not something that gets measured with "scale" :I
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Actually it is. Its just like reality warping and time stop. It depends upon the user's power. It can scaled to a small room to multiverse.
 
^but not if a "concept" is involved, he erased the concept of something, it is basically reality warping which in most cases doesnt have any real range, if it was like laws room where he is "god" inside his special space than yes, the range would matter but allfiction can manipulate reality with some additional rules ^_^

PS: he also mentioned that if he is careless he could make the whole world into fiction (basically: wiping out the planet) :I
 
I personally can give Kumagawa planet level at max, but nothing more than that. He hasn't proven that his ability works on a universal scale (it wouldn't make sense for him to be surprised by star busting)
 
KamiYasha said:
Destroy concepts at a universal sacle and planet level at max? lol
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When has he proven to destroy concepts on a universal scale? If you're talking about the color incident, prove that it doesn't have a limited range.
 
He would have to undo the fundamental conceptual workings of the entire universe in order to undo something as fundamental as colour itself. In addition, if I remember correctly, his unrestrained power was stated as capable of destroying all of existence if he should lose control. As is stated in the name, to his power all of reality is just fiction that can be erased at a whim.

Also, Najimi's 600 powers at once list used abilities unfathomably above star busting, including to "become God" and ascend to higher-dimensional space, and Kumagawa was well used to the fact that she was an infinite being of countless versatility. Your claim that he was struck with awe for something as trivial as star busting is not something that I recall.
 
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