Giorno Giovanna - Speed Revision

[CrushforceX]

In a few threads discussing GER and King Crimson, there has been contention over whether or not GER has infinite speed for moving within erased time, so I thought I would create a thread discussing why I personally think GER should be downgraded (and allow you guys to discuss)


Firstly, after GER emerges and King Crimson erases time, Diavolo is initially able to see golden experiences movements within the erased time before GER's Return to Zero. However, just a few panels/seconds earlier, Diavolo says he "lost sight of him for a moment", implying that he was not able to see the moment he attacked, but could still use Epitaph to read what was going to happen. If GER truly had a speed of infinite, that would mean that its flurry (which Giorno had no reason to hold back on) should not have been observable to Diavolo, no matter how much he slowed them down. Remember, since Diavolo couldn't see one of GER's attacks, that means that there is some finite speed after which King Crimson cannot see the opponent moving. A being with finite speed perception can only witness the moments that something with infinite speed is standing still, no matter how much that being slows down time or gains faster reactions. Since Diavolo did witness GER moving at full speed in erased time, that must mean that GER is moving at some finite speed that is greater than King Crimsons normal speed, but still finite.


Secondly, King Crimsons Time Erasure is not the same thing as stopped time. Despite the name, King Crimsons ability is more causality manipulation than actual time manipulation. As far as it's been described, the way Time Erase works is by erasing the "cause" but keeping the effect. For example, when bullets were shot by Narancia's Aerosmith, King Crimson erased the time that the bullets were inside of him, and then stitched back time so that the bullets would have the "effect" of flying but not have gone through the "cause" behind why they were in that particular place, meaning they would never have had to pass through Diavolo like normal casual bullets would. Importantly, King Crimson has not stopped time at any point since epitaph's prediction still works normally, it's just that during Diavolo's erased time, all actions have only a result. Thus, an acasual being of type 4 or above (or just basically anyone that can resist causality manipulation) would be completely unaffected by King Crimson. This would give an explanation as to how GER managed to move within Erased Time; after Giorno completed his flurry, he would have used Reset to Zero had Diavolo not erased time. This allowed GER to use his own causality manipulation to begin restoring erased time (as GER's ability is to revert the effect of all actions to zero). To those of you thinking "But why would Giorno have used Reset to Zero?", might I remind you that the reason Diavolo is stuck in a death loop is because GER used Reset to Zero right before the moment of his death. So, had Diavolo not used his erased time in the first place, he would have been subject to GER's flurry of punches (As Diavolo sees in erased time!) and then GER would have used Reset to Zero on Diavolo, thus accomplishing two things: both restoring erased time that Diavolo had affected, and after the erased time was restored, putting Diavolo in an eternal death loop.


So in summary, I suggest downgrading GER to massively faster than light (Comparable to King Crimson) due to the arguments above, although GER is indeed likely faster than King Crimson by a significant margin.

 

[CrushforceX]

Bump, odd that no one is responding

 

[The_Smashor]

I agree.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't mostly because you have outright false information in your op. I'll respond after my shower.

 

[Chariot190]

Diavolo at no point manages to react to GER, in fact the only he time he does react is by aim dodging the laser which he explicitly says that he couldnt see and only dodged by aim dodging by seeing the hole appear in his hand within epitaph, he didnt even see the attack in epitaph, only the resulting damage.

And the flurry? He didnt see the flurry at all prior to time erase or within epitaph or after the time erase too. He sees GER begin a stand rush by looking at it's trails within erased time, which means litterally nothing because we don't know how long those actions took, if it took an infintasmal amount of time to start throwing those punches we'd never know but Diavolo would still see the trails in erased time because he's not looking at what's happening in real time, if those punches all took zero time to perform he'd still be able to see the trails because he's seeing what already transpired or what will transpire, and he specfically says that he's eeing trails of the actions that will transpire, and what will transpire and the path ge took and will take to perform those actions. The fact it aint in real time invalidates your argument because Diavolo aint seeing shit, especially when he outright litterally cant even see GER move outside of erased time, he can only see the actions he'd take via trails and the fact other then Diavolo seeing trails he outrights says that he cant see GE attack and has to aim dodge, and not by looking at GE but by looking at the resulting destruction, but ive already said that. Basically your reacting to a flurry argument, which is actually seeing paths' of fated actions in erased time isnt even a counterpoint. Because wether he's infinite speed or slower than a human, his actions would still have trails and unless we know how long those actions took, it's litterally not even a point. And the only time frame we got is less than 5 seconds, and im sure you can see why that aint helping your case.

Your argument falls apart when you said Giorno had no reason to hold back, Giorno manually controlling GE makes your argument fall apart because Giorno himself aint that fast and GER in the instances he did the thing was controlling himself and even said himself lol Giorno doesnt know shit about me. Giorno doesnt know what GER can and can not do, he says so himself he has no idea on what GER even did to Diavolo, he most certainly cant command him properly but that's a nonfactor in this because it doesnt matter necause at no point in the manga did anyone react to GER. Not only that but the second point is a straight up lie, Diavolo never reacts to GER, ever, outside of trails and in every instance outside of trails he's blitzed to the point he cant even see GER move. And that's more than a one time thing, the first thing GER does is get out of the GE husk, heal the dying if not already dead Giorno, proceeds of moving completely of of King Crimson's range, moves behind him a dozen or so meter, starts to fly and Diavolo didnt even knew any of that happened, while he was mid punch. Diavolo or anyone ever reacts to GER. Saying anyone does would be outright lying.

And did you actually just try and say it basically doesnt count because it's basically c&e manip? And it may have effects similar to c&e manipulation but that doesnt mean it still aint time erase, and yeah it aint time stop, it's even worse, it's time erase, time aint stopped, time aint even there.

Time does not exist within the world, if GER moved in that, and in no instances ever did anyone actually react to him (meaning it cant be contradictory to his feat because slower characters never even reacted to him) then there's nothing contradicting it and it aint an outlier when we got at least 2 other stands with infinite speed, of which one was introduced in this part prior to GER and the other is MIH who is super blatantly infinite speed at it's apex. And he did in fact move in that, it was explicitly stated that time was still erased when he began moving and talking. In fact the words used were nobody can move in erased time, move, like, physically move your body, in erased time. And yes he did RTZ the erased time but he still acted within the erased time prior to it's restoration. It's like, outright stated on panel. Saying he restored time aint an argument when it was stated in text on panel in response to GER moving that time was still erased and he was moving in it. An even then he'd stil need infinite reactions to RTZ within erased time because it's made clear GER does it manually, that shit aint passive.

Basically to prove GER aint infinite you would need an instance of someone actually reacting to him, but that never happens and it's shoved down your throat nobody does so, nobody can percieve any action he takes outside of erased time, not only is it stated nobody can even see it attack but it's stand rushes werent reacted to either, unless you count the trails, which would mean nothing because it aint in real time (i dont mean erased time, i mean he aint seeing the actions as they take place, he's only seeing the trails, not the movement themselves (and he doesnt say as such either, he only mentions the trails not GER itself and in all other instances he says he cant even percieve him act) that or prove that GER didnt move in erased time, because like it or not, it's litterally stated on panel and going it's aint real time erase or it dont count or something because it's actually c&e manip is like, the worst excuse ive eve seen in a debate, it is most certainly 100% erased time and it's stated like a million times at different points he erases all time from the world and time doesnt exist for anyone. And the fact Diavolo explicitly pointed out that GER was moving within erased time there aint no he already restored time argument either.

Your best and only argument would be using how fast he is in the anime comparatively but that's an extremely weak argument especially because of how infinites tend to work in animation. Like, when we downgrading digimon because we can see infinites move but nobody else can percieve suc actions?

The only time Diavolo managed to react was after the stand rush post time erase that destroyed most of his stand, except that was because GER stopped attacking, looked at him and started talking to him stating that he's ****** now and something something fate undertones, and he didn't even get a chance to retaliate because he was blitzed again and killed.

I wrote this on a sticky note app while in the shower, if it's a bit messy that's why. Yes I take my phone into the bath. It's relaxing.

 

[DMB_1]

Diavolo is clearly able to see GER's movements in erased time.

 

[Chariot190]

Diavolo is clearly able to see GER's movements in erased time.

Someone didnt read clearly.

He could see the trails of it's fated actions but that, and only that, is what he seen. And not even in 1/1 time. Every other instance he couldnt even perceive him and he says as such himself.

He says that he can see the trails, that's it, nothing more nothing less, and every other time he says he cant even see GER move, regardless of what the anime potrays it as.

 

[CrushforceX]

1) Doesn't mean his speed is infinte, just that it's faster than King Crimson can react (which I said in my post)

2) A being moving at infinite speeds doesn't exist at finite time points inbetween attacks. Against finite beings it is effectively teleportation, meaning that if GER was moving at infinite speeds, no trails of his punches would appear (think moody blues vs clash, where he couldn't rewind past the moment of teleportation). Ignoring aim dodging via Epitaph, there is no way Diavolo would be able to see infinite speed movement since there is no time while an infinite speed being moves.

3) Just because an action is fated to happen doesn't mean Diavolo can see when it happens. Again, for all intents and purposes there is no time while an infinite speed being moves (in fact, given that speed is D/T, the only way for something to move at infinite speeds is to do it during 0 time).

4) Echoes act 2 moved faster than the user could even react, and it is a 100% manually controlled stand. It stands to reason that GER, which is a somewhat sentient stand like Spice Girl, would be able to move at full speed (remember, stands carry out a person's intent, it's not just another set of limbs).

5) Referring to the name of an ability as a point is incredibly weak. We see Diavolo, the human (as well as his shirt that he took off) moving during time erase, as well as having actions such as blood drops, people walking, and countless other things. Diavolos ability clearly meets the criteria for time manipulation. but it is not a realm devoid of time (or else cause and effect would not exist for blood to drop, or people to walk, etc). Actions can take place in erased time without being infinite speed, even if those actions don't have a cause behind them (hence, causality manipulation). The time manipulation applies to when he stiches back the start and end of erased time.

5) We see the blood going back towards Diavolo's hand before we even see GER in the restoring time panels. This is quite explicitly after GER begun his ability. And for your point about "Diavolo said it was erased time", Diavolo also had not realised what was happening at that point. He was quite clearly incredibly confused by another being intruding his ability, and since he didn't know GER's ability, he is not an accurate narrator.


Will not comment on the strawman arguments.

 

[Chariot190]

>Doesn't mean his speed is infinte, just that it's faster than King Crimson can react (which I said in my post)

Except that's the thing, the fact litterally nobody can even perceive him act outside of trails of afted actions not in real time kinda means the whole Diavolo and others can see him move so he cant be in infinite is a argument that's straight up wrong.

>A being moving at infinite speeds doesn't exist at finite time points inbetween attacks. Against finite beings it is effectively teleportation, meaning that if GER was moving at infinite speeds, no trails of his punches would appear (think moody blues vs clash, where he couldn't rewind past the moment of teleportation).

Except that's a load of shit dude, it'd still have the trails. If GER's arms were fated to be in that location the trails of his arms being there or going to be there would still appear. You're misintepreting what the trails even are, that's your issue. The trails dont show in real time, it simply shows he acts that will transpire, i has zero relation in the speed of wchich they happen, only that they happen. Moody Blues is a false analogy, due to Moody Blue's limitations not because Clash teleported. The only way your point here would be valid is if you can prove the timeframe that said punches happened in, because even if it was infinite, the trails would show up as long as GER's arms as it shows what the opponent is going to do not what's happening at that exact moment.

>Just because an action is fated to happen doesn't mean Diavolo can see when it happens. Again, for all intents and purposes there is no time while an infinite speed being moves (in fact, given that speed is D/T, the only way for something to move at infinite speeds is to do it during 0 time).

Yeah and he cant see them happen, and he vener did, he quite litterally can not, as stated by himself even perceive GER move outside of trails. He doesnt see GER move, he looked at the trails of what GER would do, Diavolo cant see or even react to him for shit without those. And that's your issue, you dont know the how fast those trails are because the trails arent real time nor do they show whats happening in real time. Uh yeah? And that's why GER moving in erased time, as stated by Diavolo, is infinite.

>Echoes act 2 moved faster than the user could even react, and it is a 100% manually controlled stand. It stands to reason that GER, which is a somewhat sentient stand like Spice Girl, would be able to move at full speed (remember, stands carry out a person's intent, it's not just another set of limbs).

Except Koichi has comparable reactions my dude to it and has shared senes with it. GER is more than somewhat, he isnt even bound to Giorno in the way most stands are, does shit without Giorno's knowing and he even says himself yeah Giorno doesnt even know I can do this lol. Then GER acts like he didnt do anything and pretended he was under Giorno's control after telling Diavolo to eat shit. The fact you're trying to use that as a counterpoint of all things doesnt even make sense. You're ignoring context my dude.

>Referring to the name of an ability as a point is incredibly weak. We see Diavolo, the human (as well as his shirt that he took off) moving during time erase, as well as having actions such as blood drops, people walking, and countless other things. Diavolos ability clearly meets the criteria for time manipulation. but it is not a realm devoid of time (or else cause and effect would not exist for blood to drop, or people to walk, etc). Actions can take place in erased time without being infinite speed, even if those actions don't have a cause behind them (hence, causality manipulation). The time manipulation applies to when he stiches back the start and end of erased time.

You're joking right? It isn't because of the time, it's because it's explicitly stated like a million times that time does not exist for anything but Diavolo himself including the world itself and it's stated many, many times. Except those actions don't happen in erased time, nothing actually happens in erased time, everything that happens within erased time you see are trails of things fated to happen, nothing is actually moving physically within Diavolo's time erase. Not that it matters because a few dozen explicit explanations of time itself being erased for everything but Diavolo superceeds how you think it functions.

>5) We see the blood going back towards Diavolo's hand before we even see GER in the restoring time panels. This is quite explicitly after GER begun his ability. And for your point about "Diavolo said it was erased time", Diavolo also had not realised what was happening at that point. He was quite clearly incredibly confused by another being intruding his ability, and since he didn't know GER's ability, he is not an accurate narrator.

Diavolo litterally realizes what's happening the literal page prior so are are factually incorrect, if not lying, about that because he did realie what was happening, he litterally says oh shit my erased time is starting go backwards and instantly deduces that it's GER, he as shocked but he aint confused and yet he still says time is erased and GER is moving within it. And time still is very clearly erased despite the fact some of it was reversed (and not reversed in the fact that it was no longer erased time, but reversed the fated actions and Diavolo himself while within the erased time, time was still erased, saidv as much and shown as much at the moment GER starts shit talking) because not only is it said as much but it's outright shown to be still within erased time. And you said yourself, when GER 'began his ability. it was a manual act, like it or not and regardless of how you justify it not being the case, the fact he manually acted and triggered his ability while time didnt even exist, and with his power being explained numerous times of removing time itself and even at one point saying time doesnt exist, that'd still give GER infinite actions, not that that would matter because the latter points still exist and you clearly dont understand how the trails function and even ignoring the fact that's the only possible way Diavolo could perceive GER move (especially because he only said he could predict via trails, which aren't related to how fast the actions take and them being infinite wouldnt mean they dont show up either, on top of every other movement GER ever did he couldnt even be seen doing it, with one instance not even being shown on panel so there's no contradictions)

And the second point relies on erased time not being erased time despite how often it's explained in detail, which yeah no nice try.

The third point is a non-point.

Your fifth and fifth-V2 points is 1. Outright Wrong and requires ignoring vast amounts of information force fed to you to suit your argument for the former and shown to still be erased time for the latter. Like, RTZ started but he still moved just fine in erased time, hell he moved and acted in erased time while Diavolo ws stuck in a specific instance of erased time, time stopped within erased time when GER did what he did, and while that's the wrong word to use because you cant stop what doesnt exist, you get my point.

 

[CrushforceX]

1) You seem to have a misunderstanding as to how infinite speed works. Infinite speed beings do not have to move at different times or in any way have a finite order to their acions such that they were in a certain place. Infinite speed is equivalent to teleporting for finite beings. There is no moment in between where they started and where they stopped. Unless GER stops, then there is no "he was fated to be here" argument because he wasn't there.

2) My point was that a user, even a 100% manually controlled stand that you share senses with isn't limited by how fast the user "thinks" it can go. If Giorno wants to punch Diavolo as fast as possible, GER isn't holding back. Also, just because a stand doesn't act with the user 100% of the time, doesn't mean the user isn't in control when they use it. See purple haze, star platinum, spice girl, echoes 3, etc.

3) Diavolo's erased time does not meet the classification for a type 3 timeless void, which is what would be necessary to give GER infinite speed. In a world without time, the blood drops would not move an inch, but yet these non-infinite speed objects are somehow still obeying cause and effect in the erased time. Thus, If time truly "did not exist" for anyone except Diavolo, the result would be equivalent to time freezing. Instead, one might say that time is instead skipping, so that those points in time would never occur. Except, then we don't have an explanation as for why Diavolo can move at all. The explanation for this is 1 of 2 things; either Diavolo changes his fated actions for the skipped time while also removing the effect of all actions taken during that period, or Diavolo erases the cause of all actions taken during KC's ability (I went with the latter in my post). Either explanation doesn't result in a timeless void type 3 scenario, and I don't see an alternative for how KC's time erase could work while still remaining entirely consistent with the fact that erased time:

1) Has causality for a set duration of time

2) Negates effects taken during the ability

3) Diavolo has a duration consistent with #1 where only he can change his actions.

 

[Chariot190]

>You seem to have a misunderstanding as to how infinite speed works. Infinite speed beings do not have to move at different times or in any way have a finite order to their acions such that they were in a certain place. Infinite speed is equivalent to teleporting for finite beings. There is no moment in between where they started and where they stopped. Unless GER stops, then there is no "he was fated to be here" argument because he wasn't there.

It seems you have a misunderstanding of how it works. Yeah you're right on the teleporting aspect, which GER did exactly as youre describing in his first showing of anything he did, but handwaving that, the big issue with your retort, being infinite in speed still doesn't mean your actions dont happen, they happen, they just happen in no time at all. If GER peformed those actions, he still performed those actions regardless of speed, the trails dont look at how fast things happen or when, they look at what the target will do, GER did those actions. Ignoring the fact you seem to think being infinite in speed means you don't do anything essentially and the huge diference is Diavolo aint perceiving his action normally, he's looking at he fated trails of what GER himself would do otherwise he cant even perceive the same attack and what youre describing isnt infinite speed to begin with.

>My point was that a user, even a 100% manually controlled stand that you share senses with isn't limited by how fast the user "thinks" it can go. If Giorno wants to punch Diavolo as fast as possible, GER isn't holding back. Also, just because a stand doesn't act with the user 100% of the time, doesn't mean the user isn't in control when they use it. See purple haze, star platinum, spice girl, echoes 3, etc.

And who's to say he didn't? Nobody reacted to the rush, nobody even perceived the rush. Even implying anyone did is extremely dishonest and outright wrong. Your point while not wrong litterally doesnt matter because the reason why it would matter never happened.

>Diavolo's erased time does not meet the classification for a type 3 timeless void, which is what would be necessary to give GER infinite speed. In a world without time, the blood drops would not move an inch, but yet these non-infinite speed objects are somehow still obeying cause and effect in the erased time. Thus, If time truly "did not exist" for anyone except Diavolo, the result would be equivalent to time freezing. Instead, one might say that time is instead skipping, so that those points in time would never occur. Except, then we don't have an explanation as for why Diavolo can move at all. The explanation for this is 1 of 2 things; either Diavolo changes his fated actions for the skipped time while also removing the effect of all actions taken during that period, or Diavolo erases the cause of all actions taken during KC's ability (I went with the latter in my post). Either explanation doesn't result in a timeless void type 3 scenario, and I don't see an alternative for how KC's time erase could work while still remaining entirely consistent with the fact that erased time:

Maybe because what you think happens in erased time doesnt actually happen? Ignoring the fact the manga outright says you're wrong numerous times and how it's described fits the void requirement, and it's stated numerous times, so many times that regardless of if you like it or not, that's how it works. blood doesnt move in erased time, neither do others, what happens is trails of what will happen and what has happened within that erased time, nobody is actually moving as you think of it and nothing technically exists. Only Diavolo can move in erased time because only his time remains, well all time for the rest of the world is outright stated to be erased, no longer exists, removed, etc, pick any word or description you want, it's all been said. And absolutely not, erased time wouldnt be equal to time freezing, it wouldnt even exist, which it doesnt. And itd be like time skipping? Uh yeah, that's exactly how it works. You're twisting how it functions to undermine GER's feat while also ignoring so much information that is litterally shoveled to you in the manga in so many instances that it's actually baffling.

And your three points kinda fall apart when Diavolo has time, he has time, the rest of litterally everything doesn't, that's why it works like it does, and also explains why it's a timeliess void like it's said to be a shit ton of times while things like Diavolo pissing around still work, the manga explains why, pay attention to it.

Instead of doing a GER thread, how about you make a King Crimson thread first and prove his time erase aint actually time erase.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Diavolo erases time for all but himself. Time passes normally for ONLY Diavolo, so he himself is traveling and interacting during these times skips as per normal.

For everyone else it is a period devoid of time. This is why Diavolo can remember things while others cannot, because memory requires time and it only exists for Diavolo.

Giorno subverting this rule and disregarding it is either hax null or a feat of infinite speed.

 

[Chariot190]

Not to mention in the manga, you never once actually see the blood drop within erased time. You're describing anime only scenes.

And to hax null he'd have to activate RTZ anyway, which would still be infnite perception, ignoring the fact he acted while time was outright stated to still be erased, and all within a moment of erased time, while the erased time itself was frozen in what I can only describe as a frame. (frame as in not a video frame, but like one interval/moment of time, Diavolo was frozen in a moment of time when GER did what he did within the erased time).

 

[CrushforceX]

Alright, I'll concede. Guess I just had a misunderstanding of KC's ability

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Alright, I'll concede. Guess I just had a misunderstanding of KC's ability

next time don't come in guns blazing, ask for clarification

 

[Chariot190]

While im fine with that, And not use anime scenes (the blood dripping in erased time was anime only, you never once see it drip in the manga while time is deleted). Ive gathered 3 pages so far that give info on how it works from the colored manga scans. I'll probably make ablog about it after i make a scaling blog.

 

[CrushforceX]

I didn't mean the blood drops as in seeing them fall (you can't see motion anyway) but more that the actions had a result.

 

[Chariot190]

The actions have an effect due to things being fated to happen and the fact the aftermath of those actions already transpired in the future, Diavolo is removing a chunk of the timeline but the time after the chunks he takes away still exists (that's why epitaph exists in the first place, it's outright stated to be looking at the future, it aint precog, it's litterally looking at what's happening in the future of the timeline).

The only reason why Diavolo can do anything about that is because only his time still exists and he can circumvent fate and whats guranteed to happen as a universal rule because lol time erase for evrything ever except me specifically. And without time erase he cant do shit at all because it's guranteed to happen no matter what without essentially removing himself from it.