Genshin 4A downgrade...

[StalkerCh]

Only mod votes matter really, even if said
mods don't know shit about the verse

Democracy has fallen

 

[Giannysmag]

Democracy has fallen

Billions must wank

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Almost 3 months and no conclusion.

 

[Woomica]

Almost 3 months and no conclusion.

its not like 3 mods disagreed

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

its not like 3 mods disagreed

Who's 3rd? I see 2 only

 

[Woomica]

Who's 3rd? I see 2 only

Elizhaa its on previous page iirc

 

[Woomica]

Who's 3rd? I see 2 only

now its 2 garri got demoted

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

bump

 

[Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe]

Now i've read the full debunk, and im agree with it

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I think we can take @GarrixianXD vote off, since they aren't a thread mod anymore.

Post in thread 'Rule Violation Reports (New forum)'

Feb 1, 2025

This is an announcement from the HR group regarding recent private discussions.

We have decided to demote GarrixianXD from their Thread Moderator position in the advent of a recent string of incidents highlighting poor sense of judgment and irresponsible conduct within their position. These have included the deletion of pages and messages without proper staff oversight, the previous misuse of temporary administrator rights to apply ban to users on the wiki (although those instances were later evaluated and weren't rescinded), as well as instances of dishonest conduct off-site prior to and...

• Agnaa

• 

 

[Woomica]

I think we can take @GarrixianXD vote off, since they aren't a thread mod anymore.

Post in thread 'Rule Violation Reports (New forum)'

Feb 1, 2025

This is an announcement from the HR group regarding recent private discussions.

We have decided to demote GarrixianXD from their Thread Moderator position in the advent of a recent string of incidents highlighting poor sense of judgment and irresponsible conduct within their position. These have included the deletion of pages and messages without proper staff oversight, the previous misuse of temporary administrator rights to apply ban to users on the wiki (although those instances were later evaluated and weren't rescinded), as well as instances of dishonest conduct off-site prior to and...

• Agnaa

• 

Garri voted before even getting thread mod so im not sure if it even counts, anyway i would just close this and make continuation, it turned too much of a yap over such stupid scaling that just by reading it makes no sense

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I would be content to give a mod vote, provided with a summary. You're right that Garrixian's vote is invalidated now.

 

[Woomica]

I would be content to give a mod vote, provided with a summary. You're right that Garrixian's vote is invalidated now.

Ill quote what @Weaver261 said hopefully thats a good summary he did

Since there're a lot of statements hinting both Simulanka and Imaginarium Theatre are just fictions, I think we can just remove the whole 4-A thing from genshin. Don't hate me. I just don't like wanking

The Summary
OP and my arguments for 4-A downgrade
Imaginarium theater worlds are only real to those believe in it.
The lobby is stated as in between reality and fiction.
All the events that happened in the IT gameplay is written in the storybook.
Simulanka is a fiction but fictional characters can reach to real world with the help of goddess.
Simulanka is completely inferior to real world as just the clumping of story paper by a cat can merge three seperate story worlds.

4-A enjoyers' arguments
Imaginarium Theater isn't fiction as it's stated as "True Fantasy"
Book is used a portal to go to IT realms (never been stated that way)
Simulanka is real becuz you can bring items and ppl from it

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The writing for the opposition's arguments seem a bit... biased. I'll wait a bit to see if anyone from the opposition would like to summarize their side. While I wait, could scans be provided as part of the summary? Videos or whatever would be fine.

 

[Furina003]

The writing for the opposition's arguments seem a bit... biased. I'll wait a bit to see if anyone from the opposition would like to summarize their side. While I wait, could scans be provided as part of the summary? Videos or whatever would be fine.

I'll detail it later, but right now I'm busy maybe tonight or tomorrow I'll sort it out

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'll detail it later, but right now I'm busy maybe tonight or tomorrow I'll sort it out

No rush at all. Not exactly overeager to do it, hah.

 

[Woomica]

i am more inclined about arguing the justifications for characters scaling to 4-A as it is cometely wrong rather than wether this is a 4-A feat or not

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Both are possible vectors of dismissing the scaling. I'm interested in hearing both angles. For your part, could you elaborate? By what justification do people currently scale to the feat, why do you feel it's wrong, etc?

 

[Woomica]

Both are possible vectors of dismissing the scaling. I'm interested in hearing both angles. For your part, could you elaborate? By what justification do people currently scale to the feat, why do you feel it's wrong, etc?

Basically 4-A has 2 chainscalings.

1. being this:
Barbatos at his prime was challenged to a battle by the Hexenzirkel, an organisation of powerful mages or witches founded by Alice, who was a protector of Old Mondstadt, a civilisation ruled by Decarabian. Decarabian was defeated by Barbatos himself. A single witch of Hexenzirkel was capable of creating the Imaginarium Theater, with casting spells using their quill,<a which contains a starry sky

Later he denies the challenge suggesting making music and not war, to resolve conflicts trough song, which suggests that Venti refused the challenge and there wasnt a fight therefore theres no reason for Venti (and every other Archon) to scale to Witches.
2. being this

The Narwhall swallowed and extinguished a starry sea of stars that took the resemblance of a galaxy, in rather a short period of time, implying it took place within an instant.

The text shown doesnt talk about Narwhal swallowing stars, but rather Stars Dying over time, which litteraly happens in real life too, and poet talking about resemblance of the galaxy just talks about countless bioluminescent planktons in the sky, so neither that proves 4-A feat being legitimate.

The feats present arent even consistent with the lore, as Witches have no combat feats shown, nor do they made Imaginarum Theather with Elemental Energy the main part of UES, but "Magic" that we dont even know what it is.
And the so called Narwhal feats are just poets full of flowery langauge used to describe him.
Both of these scalings apply to characters being 4-A and both are wrong and should be removed.

 

[Weaver261]

Elemental Energy the main part of UES, but "Magic" that we dont even know what it is.

Magic can be learned, while Elemental Energy can't be learned. You can only use Elemental energy if the gods bestow you with vision. Magic is clearly not a part of Element Energy UES but you can get more understanding of Magic by understanding elements. But just because elements are essential to understanding magic, doesn't mean they are the same type of energy. In the end, it's really vague. Although Vision are localized as "Magical Foci (魔力器官)" in english by Venti but still something magical isn't always related to Magic.

From this, it can be assumed she already learned magic and spearmanship by that point.

After all, understanding the elements is essential to the study of magic, and practical experience is a far more useful means of acquiring this understanding than trying to assimilate the knowledge contained in dusty old books.

Lisa: Eating salad is like piling on more and more elemental power. Raw, unfettered energy applied indiscriminately, with no elegance or control.
Lisa: It's the first mistake all magic users make when they're learning. But then again... if one genuinely had so much pure elemental power that they could solve any problem they wanted... that would be a different matter entirely.

Also Vision aren't necessary to use Magic since Mona who is the disciple of one of the witches, doesn't care about getting Vision at all since it's just a teaching aid. She said it serves no pratical use in her hands

As such, she does not have any reverence for her Vision, which the people of this world consider to be a sign of divine favor and the source of all power.

Nonetheless, this item that serves no practical use in her hands is something that she treasures greatly.

It was gifted to her by her teacher as a teaching aid, and it is the only evidence of their time together as master and pupil.

 

[Dog3352]

The above comments are a good summary of the main problem of this scale, which is this "magic is an UES" or "magic in general uses elementary energy" when it is not quite. Especially something like witch's creation magic, which is a specific magic that has no evidence of using any types of UES (yes, this includes elementary energy).

Of course, I also put in the OP a character unable to use Elemental Energy or Vision literally using witch's creation magic, and literally saying that "magic is in words", making it clear that there is no use of UES, just one Skill that does not use UES that is capable of creating a pocket dimension.

 

[Woomica]

Bump

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Was asked to ping.
@Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Sir_Ovens

Your help would be appreciated

 

[AyOgUyS]

I agree with the downgrade as well. Not too knowledgeable about Genshin since I stopped playing before Fontaine unfortunately but I've skimmed through this thread as well as the one that got the upgrade and I think Genshin should be downgraded as well.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Basically 4-A has 2 chainscalings.

Later he denies the challenge suggesting making music and not war, to resolve conflicts trough song, which suggests that Venti refused the challenge and there wasnt a fight therefore theres no reason for Venti (and every other Archon) to scale to Witches.
2. being this


The text shown doesnt talk about Narwhal swallowing stars, but rather Stars Dying over time, which litteraly happens in real life too, and poet talking about resemblance of the galaxy just talks about countless bioluminescent planktons in the sky, so neither that proves 4-A feat being legitimate.

The feats present arent even consistent with the lore, as Witches have no combat feats shown, nor do they made Imaginarum Theather with Elemental Energy the main part of UES, but "Magic" that we dont even know what it is.
And the so called Narwhal feats are just poets full of flowery langauge used to describe him.
Both of these scalings apply to characters being 4-A and both are wrong and should be removed.

Right. Hadn't received notifications for this, good thing I checked back in, eh.

The first feat is... debateable. But I would agree that it implies strongly enough that Barbatos forsook combat, and so scaling doesn't make sense.

The second feat leaves less wiggle room for interpretation, imo, and should outright not be 4-A.

So, I agree with both counts of dismissal as explained by this comment. It doesn't do much in the way of proving ITs as outright not 4-A feats, but the second one at least prevents scaling.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Was asked to ping.
@Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Sir_Ovens

Your help would be appreciated

Should ping DDM too for another re-evaluation

Anyway that's two mods on agreed on the downgrade

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Should ping DDM too for another re-evaluation

Anyway that's two mods on agreed on the downgrade

You already got DDM's vote , why re-evaluation?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

You already got DDM's vote , why re-evaluation?

New arguments and rebuttal

 

[Woomica]

Bump

 

[Dog3352]

It doesn't do much in the way of proving ITs as outright not 4-A feats

I'm not sure if I understand right here, do you agree that the creation of IT is not a feat 4-A? The reason why the deed is scaled to 4-A is for "use UES", but as has been proved here with several scans, besides the lack of evidence to show that this "witch creation magic" uses UES, there is evidence directly they do not use UES, making the "4-A feat" not scalable.

The feats present arent even consistent with the lore, as Witches have no combat feats shown, nor do they made Imaginarum Theather with Elemental Energy the main part of UES, but "Magic" that we dont even know what it is.

The above comments are a good summary of the main problem of this scale, which is this "magic is an UES" or "magic in general uses elementary energy" when it is not quite. Especially something like witch's creation magic, which is a specific magic that has no evidence of using any types of UES (yes, this includes elementary energy).

Of course, I also put in the OP a character unable to use Elemental Energy or Vision literally using witch's creation magic, and literally saying that "magic is in words", making it clear that there is no use of UES, just one Skill that does not use UES that is capable of creating a pocket dimension.

Magic can be learned, while Elemental Energy can't be learned. You can only use Elemental energy if the gods bestow you with vision. Magic is clearly not a part of Element Energy UES but you can get more understanding of Magic by understanding elements. But just because elements are essential to understanding magic, doesn't mean they are the same type of energy. In the end, it's really vague. Although Vision are localized as "Magical Foci (魔力器官)" in english by Venti but still something magical isn't always related to Magic.



Also Vision aren't necessary to use Magic since Mona who is the disciple of one of the witches, doesn't care about getting Vision at all since it's just a teaching aid. She said it serves no pratical use in her hands

Nilou, who is unable to use elemental energy or her vision (Genshin UES), calls the creation magic she uses "magic" (her creation magic that she can use in Simulanka is the witches' creation magic, as it is said/described here), making it clear once again that creation magic has nothing to do with elemental energy, creation magic being it is a magic that was used by a character who was unable to use elemental energy or the vision, in addition to her also saying that "the magic is in the words", showing once again that the magic of creation has nothing to do with elemental energy.

Nilou: Unfortunately, Idon't know how to use the "magic" of this world. I've tried using my Vision, but it doesn't seem to work here...

Nilou: Well... All I did was say my wishes for her out loud. Maybe the magic is in the words, themselves, just like the book said!

Nilou: The moment I used magic, I sensed something... strange down there. I have a feeling it's connected to why the Tavern had to close down.

Nilou: "The incantation, 'Abracadabra,' means 'to create what I say.' This is a world made of words, where fantastical powers can be wielded by all."

Ginkgo: In her hands, she held the very paper used to form our bodies. She whispered something into the pages... And then, suddenly, a paper frog was borrn, ready to leap into the world! Oh, it was spectacular!
Chestnut: Cut the theatrics, will you? You weren't even there...
Paimon: Wait, so... That's it? Paimon thought creation magic would have a little bit more... pizzazz.

Nilou: "I bestow upon you the blessings of the forest, and offer you a home in this land..."
Nilou: "Your name shall be Padisarah. May you bloom in this world as beautifully as the flower I love."
Padisarah: ...
Padisarah: My name is... Padisarah.
Paimon: It worked! It actually worked!!
Almond: Well, peel my shell and call me a nut... I never imagined I'd witness such a miracle at my age. It's just like what the stories said about the Goddess of Creation!

 

[Furina003]

I'm not sure if I understand right here, do you agree that the creation of IT is not a feat 4-A? The reason why the deed is scaled to 4-A is for "use UES", but as has been proved here with several scans, besides the lack of evidence to show that this "witch creation magic" uses UES, there is evidence directly they do not use UES, making the "4-A feat" not scalable.




Nilou, who is unable to use elemental energy or her vision (Genshin UES), calls the creation magic she uses "magic" (her creation magic that she can use in Simulanka is the witches' creation magic, as it is said/described here), making it clear once again that creation magic has nothing to do with elemental energy, creation magic being it is a magic that was used by a character who was unable to use elemental energy or the vision, in addition to her also saying that "the magic is in the words", showing once again that the magic of creation has nothing to do with elemental energy.

This has even been refuted many times, isn't there something more convincing? why Nilou can't use vision is because of the rules of the goddesses where Nilou doesn't act as a hero, while Wanderer can still use vision because he is the hero who saved Simulanka.

Actually, from Lisa's statement and the magic guidebook, it is very clear, it says that if you want to learn magic you have to understand the elements, which means that magic is also part of the elements, the elements are the basic foundation of the world where everything is regulated by the elements, even leylines are formed from the paths of flowing elements.

lisa statement in her profil: "After all, understanding the elements is essential to the study of magic, and practical experience is a far more useful means of acquiring this understanding than trying to assimilate the knowledge contained in dusty old books"

and don't forget Venti's explanation which says that vision is magic

Venti: Ah, so you noticed.
Venti: sigh This isn't something I'm meant to discuss with ordinary people. But I suppose I can let you in on the secret.
Venti: As you know, Visions are external magical foci that only a small minority of people possess. They use these Visions to channel elemental power.
Venti: In truth, every wielder of a Vision is one who can attain godhood and ascend to Celestia. We call such people allogenes

 

[Dog3352]

This has even been refuted many times, isn't there something more convincing? why Nilou can't use vision is because of the rules of the goddesses where Nilou doesn't act as a hero, while Wanderer can still use vision because he is the hero who saved Simulanka.

Actually, from Lisa's statement and the magic guidebook, it is very clear, it says that if you want to learn magic you have to understand the elements, which means that magic is also part of the elements, the elements are the basic foundation of the world where everything is regulated by the elements, even leylines are formed from the paths of flowing elements.


and don't forget Venti's explanation which says that vision is magic

First: No, this does not refute what I said and does not go against anything I said, I have said several times in the CRT that the manipulation of elementary energy is also considered magic, but, as I already tasted in the OP and during the course of CRT, there are many things that are called magic (use the term "magic") that do not use elementary energy, this is simply a fact.

Second: This does not contradict what I said, Lisa is obviously speaking specifically of the term "magic" as "elementary energy manipulation", and literally has just been posted a scan that proves that no elementary energy or vision is needed to use "magic ".

Magic can be learned, while Elemental Energy can't be learned. You can only use Elemental energy if the gods bestow you with vision. Magic is clearly not a part of Element Energy UES but you can get more understanding of Magic by understanding elements. But just because elements are essential to understanding magic, doesn't mean they are the same type of energy. In the end, it's really vague. Although Vision are localized as "Magical Foci (魔力器官)" in english by Venti but still something magical isn't always related to Magic.



Also Vision aren't necessary to use Magic since Mona who is the disciple of one of the witches, doesn't care about getting Vision at all since it's just a teaching aid. She said it serves no pratical use in her hands

Mona, a literal witch, doesn't care about her vision or not, and doesn't consider her at all important for her learning, and she already learned magic from her master even before gaining her vision (that should be Prove enough, being another character without vision using magic);
There are several things in Genshin that use the term "magic", elementary energy manipulation is simply one of them, but is not related to all things that use the term "magic";
A character unable to use elementary energy/vision literally used the "witch's creation magic", which is a clear and direct proof that there is no use of elementary energy in this magic, and she says that "magic is in words" .

You keep insisting on a single sentence (which is clearly simply talking about "magic" in the term of "elementary energy manipulation"), when there are several things that go against what you insist, such as the various spells I put in the op, a Halloween's own magic, the phrase said by Mona, and even more.

 

[Furina003]

First: No, this does not refute what I said and does not go against anything I said, I have said several times in the CRT that the manipulation of elementary energy is also considered magic, but, as I already tasted in the OP and during the course of CRT, there are many things that are called magic (use the term "magic") that do not use elementary energy, this is simply a fact.

Second: This does not contradict what I said, Lisa is obviously speaking specifically of the term "magic" as "elementary energy manipulation", and literally has just been posted a scan that proves that no elementary energy or vision is needed to use "magic ".

Mona, a literal witch, doesn't care about whether or not her vision, because she would make no difference to her, which makes it clear that she doesn't need the vision to use magic;
There are several things in Genshin that use the term "magic", elementary energy manipulation is simply one of them, but is not related to all things that use the term "magic";
A character unable to use elementary energy/vision literally used the "witch's creation magic", which is a clear and direct proof that there is no use of elementary energy in this magic, and she says that "magic is in words" .

You keep insisting on a single sentence (which is clearly simply talking about "magic" in the term of "elementary energy manipulation"), when there are several things that go against what you insist, such as the various spells I put in the op, a Halloween's own magic, the phrase said by Mona, and even more.

how do you say that magic has nothing to do with elementals? while the first step for you to do magic is that you have to understand elemental energy? this was really too forceful.

Don't rely too much on words using magic you don't need to use vision, it's as if you are locking in a universal energy, namely elemental, only vision, in fact vision itself is said to be a magic, and you need to remember that there are many entities in Genshin that can use elemental without vision, such as adeptus, youkai etc.

Elementals are definitely magic, and magic is definitely part of elementals, not the other way around, because to learn magic, the first step you have to do is understand the elements.

Elemental control is an advanced level of magic, therefore Lisa and Mona think that vision can help their magic, and Mona has also been using hydro astrology since before she used vision, which means that magic is part of hydro elemental energy.

This is also why magic can be learned, but direct use of elemental energy requires vision, and a further level of use of elemental energy involves direct leyline manipulation.
But that doesn't mean that magic users don't have to understand elemental energy because magic and elementals are related. as explained by Lisa.

 

[Dog3352]

how do you say that magic has nothing to do with elementals? while the first step for you to do magic is that you have to understand elemental energy? this was really too forceful.

Mona literally learning magic even before gaining her vision, and even considering her useless for her learning: A.
Some of the witch being normal human without vision: A.
Nilou literally using a magic without being able to use vision/elemental energy: a

First, I have much more evidence than enough to say that the magic itself is not about manipulation of elementary energy, since there are at least 3 examples just here (not to mention the various spells I put in the op that does not use elementary energy).
According to that, as Weaver said, Lisa says "Understanding the Elements is Essential to the Study of Magic", not that "magic is elementary energy manipulation" or that "it is necessary to manipulate elementary energy to use magic", It's is a different thing to need to understand about something, and need to use it (which I have already proved that it is not really necessary to use it or have the energy, and the characters used magic without having elementary vision/energy).

Don't rely too much on words using magic you don't need to use vision, it's as if you are locking in a universal energy, namely elemental, only vision, in fact vision itself is said to be a magic, and you need to remember that there are many entities in Genshin that can use elemental without vision, such as adeptus, youkai etc.

Only here are there at least 3 examples of characters using magic without elementary energy (Mona, Nilou, and other witches who are part of the group), and there are even more examples in OP.
In addition, Youkais are not elemental beings, only supernatural beings, with many of them having their own mystical arts/mágicas (this without using/having elementary energy).

Elementals are definitely magic, and magic is definitely part of elementals, not the other way around, because to learn magic, the first step you have to do is understand the elements.

And you keep generalizing, even with me putting several examples of magic in the OP that does not use elementary energy, and Mona using magic before getting your vision and even after still stating that vision is not necessary for your magic learning, nillated using Magic even failing to use elementary vision/energy, etc.

 

[Furina003]

Mona literally learning magic even before gaining her vision, and even considering her useless for her learning: A.
Some of the witch being normal human without vision: A.
Nilou literally using a magic without being able to use vision/magic: a

First, I have much more evidence than enough to say that the magic itself is not about manipulation of elementary energy, since there are at least 3 examples just here (not to mention the various spells I put in the op that does not use elementary energy).
According to that, as Weaver said, Lisa says "Understanding the Elements is Essential to the Study of Magic", not that "magic is elementary energy manipulation" or that "it is necessary to manipulate elementary energy to use magic", It's is a different thing to need to understand about something, and need to use it (which I have already proved that it is not really necessary to use it or have the energy, and the characters used magic without having elementary vision/energy).

Only here are there at least 3 examples of characters using magic without elementary energy (Mona, Nilou, and other witches who are part of the group), and there are even more examples in OP.
In addition to but, not all youkais are elemental beings, in fact, I'm sure most are not, but only supernatural creatures, some of them having their own magic that does not use elemental energy.

And you keep generalizing, even with me putting several examples of magic in the OP that does not use elementary energy, and Mona using magic before getting your vision and even after still stating that vision is not necessary for your magic learning, nillated using Magic even failing to use elementary vision/energy, etc.

now I ask you why you think it has nothing to do with elemental energy? Is it just because you don't use vision? The use of vision is to manipulate elementals, while magic is the most basic human science where it does not manipulate elementals directly but you still have to understand these elementals as the first step to using magic.

Stop thinking that elemental manipulation only uses vision, I have said that many other entities can use elemental energy without vision. You even forgot that Mona used hydro astrology before she got the vision, hydro astrology means using hydro energy which we can conclude that Mona's magic is also based on elemental hydro energy.
Nilou is playing the role of a goddess in the simulanka, the rules made by the creator goddesses.
If magic doesn't use elemental energy, I want to ask you, why does Lisa explain that to use magic the first step is to understand elemental energy?

Mona's astrology utilizes hydromancy, and she once explained the underlying principles thusly:
"It is people's fate that shines in the night sky, and though its reflection in water is but an illusion, it reveals the truth nonetheless."

 

[Furina003]

Mona literally learning magic even before gaining her vision, and even considering her useless for her learning: A.
Some of the witch being normal human without vision: A.
Nilou literally using a magic without being able to use vision/magic: a

First, I have much more evidence than enough to say that the magic itself is not about manipulation of elementary energy, since there are at least 3 examples just here (not to mention the various spells I put in the op that does not use elementary energy).
According to that, as Weaver said, Lisa says "Understanding the Elements is Essential to the Study of Magic", not that "magic is elementary energy manipulation" or that "it is necessary to manipulate elementary energy to use magic", It's is a different thing to need to understand about something, and need to use it (which I have already proved that it is not really necessary to use it or have the energy, and the characters used magic without having elementary vision/energy).

Only here are there at least 3 examples of characters using magic without elementary energy (Mona, Nilou, and other witches who are part of the group), and there are even more examples in OP.
In addition, Youkais are not elemental beings, only supernatural beings, with many of them having their own mystical arts/mágicas (this without using/having elementary energy).

And you keep generalizing, even with me putting several examples of magic in the OP that does not use elementary energy, and Mona using magic before getting your vision and even after still stating that vision is not necessary for your magic learning, nillated using Magic even failing to use elementary vision/energy, etc.

even hilichurls use elemental energy without vision, and samachurls use words to use elemental energy

A wizened, mumbling hilichurl, one that chants of the power of Hydro.
Hilichurls especially gifted in commanding the elements who often reach the zenith of their skill in their twilight years. What sort of life would lead to such simple creatures being able to summon water and rains?

A wizened, mumbling hilichurl, one that calls upon the bite of Cryo.
Hilichurls especially gifted in commanding the elements who often reach the zenith of their skill in their twilight years. These shamans remember the frosty chants and are even more skilled in the art of using them to entrap their foes.

This all explains the entanglement of magic and elemental energy

Divining Scroll
A scroll that likely relates to some kind of magic. Exudes an inexplicable but ominous warmth.

 

[Dog3352]

now I ask you why you think it has nothing to do with elemental energy? Is it just because you don't use vision? The use of vision is to manipulate elementals, while magic is the most basic human science where it does not manipulate elementals directly but you still have to understand these elementals as the first step to using magic.

I said that not everything that has the term "magic" (especially the magic of witch creation) uses elementary energy, and not that one has no connection with the other, Lisa says that it is necessary to understand the elements to understand the magic, not that it is necessary to manipulate, have or use the elementary energy to use or understand magic, these are two different things.
nI addition to examples of characters and beings that do not have elementary energy using magic/mystical arts.

Stop thinking that elemental manipulation only uses vision, I have said that many other entities can use elemental energy without vision.

He never said that all beings only use elementary energy with vision, but humans need, and Youkais simply do not use, most of them do not even have elementary energy, are only supernatural beings with their own mystical arts/magics.

You even forgot that Mona used hydro astrology before she got the vision, hydro astrology means using hydro energy which we can conclude that Mona's magic is also based on elemental hydro energy.

Notorious error here, humans are not able to use elementary energy without receiving a vision, unless they use a delusion, this is simply a fact.
And second that hydromance does not use elementary energy, hydromance is simply the ability to predict the future by reflecting the stars in water, no elementary vision or energy is required to use hydromance.

Nilou is playing the role of a goddess in the simulanka, the rules made by the creator goddesses.

This does not change the fact that it literally uses magic without using elementary energy, besides saying that "magic is in words", not in any use of any kind of energy.

If magic doesn't use elemental energy, I want to ask you, why does Lisa explain that to use magic the first step is to understand elemental energy?

She never said that it is necessary to use elementary energy to understand magic, she says that it is necessary to understand/study the elements, use and understand/study are two completely different things.

 

[Dog3352]

even hilichurls use elemental energy without vision, and samachurls use words to use elemental energy


This all explains the entanglement of magic and elemental energy

I don't know what you want to prove with it, it is simply a class of hilichurls that is capable of using magic/elements, I have said several times that the term "magic" can also refer to elemental energy manipulation, this is simply the case here.

 

[Furina003]

I said I do not use elementary energy, not that there is not with each other, Lisa says that it is necessary to understand the elements to understand the magic, not that it is necessary to manipulate, have or use the elementary energy to use or understand magic, these are two different things.
nI addition to examples of characters and beings that do not have elementary energy using magic/mystical arts.

yes, Lisa clearly said that to understand magic you have to understand elemental energy. What I ask you is that according to your mindset which says there is no connection between magic and elemental energy, why do we have to understand elemental energy to understand magic? otherwise there should be no need to understand energy elements when learning magic

He never said that all beings only use elementary energy with vision, but humans need, and Youkais simply do not use, most of them do not even have elementary energy, are only supernatural beings with their own mystical arts/magics.

youkai can use elemental energy before they get vision, and I've posted before where tengu use the power of lightning and anemo.

Yes, because humans cannot use elementals without vision, this is the reason why humans study magic, by understanding elemental energy. therefore the magic guidebook explains about elementals "

Notorious error here, humans are not able to use elementary energy without receiving a vision, unless they use a delusion, this is simply a fact.
And second that hydromance does not use elementary energy, hydromance is simply the ability to predict the future by reflecting the stars in water, no elementary vision or energy is required to use hydromance.

Have you never seen Mona use hydromancy even though it is shown in her character's idle movements, it is very clear that she uses hydro energy.

This does not change the fact that it literally uses magic without using elementary energy, besides saying that "magic is in words", not in any use of any kind of energy.

She never said that it is necessary to use elementary energy to understand magic, she says that it is necessary to understand/study the elements, use and understand/study are two completely different things.

magic is words which doesn't mean it doesn't use elemental energy, the hilichurls only say words to use their magic which is elemental energy
even hilichurls use elemental energy without vision, and samachurls use words to use elemental energy

A wizened, mumbling hilichurl, one that chants of the power of Hydro.
Hilichurls especially gifted in commanding the elements who often reach the zenith of their skill in their twilight years. What sort of life would lead to such simple creatures being able to summon water and rains?

A wizened, mumbling hilichurl, one that calls upon the bite of Cryo.
Hilichurls especially gifted in commanding the elements who often reach the zenith of their skill in their twilight years. These shamans remember the frosty chants and are even more skilled in the art of using them to entrap their foes.

This all explains the entanglement of magic and elemental energy

Divining Scroll
A scroll that likely relates to some kind of magic. Exudes an inexplicable but ominous warmth.

 

[Weaver261]

Have you never seen Mona use hydromancy even though it is shown in her character's idle movements, it is very clear that she uses hydro energy.

You mean this ?

Mona: When I first received my Vision, the elderly woman that gave it to me, she put on this air and said "May your heart of truth be with you." And yet this thing does nothing for my hydromancy, all it does is get me wet.

yes, Lisa clearly said that to understand magic you have to understand elemental energy. What I ask you is that according to your mindset which says there is no connection between magic and elemental energy, why do we have to understand elemental energy to understand magic? otherwise there should be no need to understand energy elements when learning magic

There's a connection between magic and elemental energy. But not like how Magic is also part of elemental energy or vice versa. If you have proof of that stating so explictly, you can provide scans on that. Understanding elemental is necessary to learn magic since getting a feel of using magical power will be better than just studying on books. Magic is all about pratical after all. Elemental energy is magical but that doesn't mean it's magic. Magical mean relating to, using, or resembling magic. Something magical is not always related to magic. It could be something similar. Understanding similar things could help in understanding magic. Mona explictly stated Vision does nothing for her magic times and times again. Visions are only for aids in learning magic but not needed to use magic. So saying magic = elemental is wrong