Genshin 4A downgrade...

[Dog3352]

es, Lisa clearly said that to understand magic you have to understand elemental energy. What I ask you is that according to your mindset which says there is no connection between magic and elemental energy, why do we have to understand elemental energy to understand magic? otherwise there should be no need to understand energy elements when learning magic

Since you want the answer so much, I will give you, it is not really necessary to understand the elements or the elementary energy to understand magic, the smooth point, is that Lisa it wanted to understand the elementary elements/energy to study as deep as possible , because there are studies that only come if the person understands the elements, Lisa herself studied magic long before having a vision and even before trying to understand the elements deeper.

A Vision is a sign from the gods: a sign that you are one of those whom they have chosen to change the world.

Or, maybe it's just one of the many hoops that one has to jump through on the path to unearthing the secrets of magecraft.

After all, understanding the elements is essential to the study of magic, and practical experience is a far more useful means of acquiring this understanding than trying to assimilate the knowledge contained in dusty old books.

"Hmm... I suppose I shall need a Vision, then."

And just like that, as that thought popped into her mind, her Vision popped into her hand.

With the aid of her Vision, Lisa acquired the knowledge that she sought. But she also sensed the deep secret hidden in the shadows of that knowledge.

The reason for this statement is because there are things in the world that can only be learned if the person understands the elements deeper, not that to learn/understand magic in general it is necessary to know about the elements, since Lisa was already studying magic before having a vision or studying the elements deeper, just as Mona already studied and used magic before obtaining her vision.

youkai can use elemental energy before they get vision, and I've posted before where tengu use the power of lightning and anemo.

Yes, because humans cannot use elementals without vision, this is the reason why humans study magic, by understanding elemental energy. therefore the magic guidebook explains about elementals "

Youkais usually doesn't even have visions, very few have, and even less can use Energy Elementary, most of them can't.

No, they do not study magics because they are unable to use elements without vision, some study to learn to use/control elementary energy (such as Razor, who learned from Lisa), or to try to find out all about the elements and their own Secrets (which is the case with Lisa, being why she got a vision).

Have you never seen Mona use hydromancy even though it is shown in her character's idle movements, it is very clear that she uses hydro energy.

Lmao. This is not hydromance, it is just mona doing a magical circle with Hydro, hydromance is specifically and only the ability to see the future for the stars reflected in water, there is nothing to do with magical circles, vision, hydro, and nothing of the type.

magic is words which doesn't mean it doesn't use elemental energy, the hilichurls only say words to use their magic which is elemental energy

Unlike the hilichurls that invoke elements with words/enchantments and magical scrolls made specifically to invoke elements, Nilou just speaks and the thing happens.

One uses magic scrolls specifically to invoke elements, the other is just the words, they are two completely different things.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Yeah, 4-A Genshin shouldn't have been a thing in the first place. It's contradictory to the actual plot and established lore, not to mention the actual justification itself is entirely too flimsy and requires mental gymnastics and headcanon to make a smidgen of sense.

 

[Furina003]

You mean this ?

Yes, that's how it is, Mona once used it when she wanted to see the fate of a traveler

There's a connection between magic and elemental energy. But not like how Magic is also part of elemental energy or vice versa. If you have proof of that stating so explictly, you can provide scans on that. Understanding elemental is necessary to learn magic since getting a feel of using magical power will be better than just studying on books. Magic is all about pratical after all. Elemental energy is magical but that doesn't mean it's magic. Magical mean relating to, using, or resembling magic. Something magical is not always related to magic. It could be something similar. Understanding similar things could help in understanding magic. Mona explictly stated Vision does nothing for her magic times and times again. Visions are only for aids in learning magic but not needed to use magic. So saying magic = elemental is wrong

are you asking me for proof? where the opposition is the one who has to prove that magic is not elemental energy, I have given you a lot of evidence about the relationship between magic and elementals, and you only rely on vision, Mona uses energy when doing magic and that is a fact, while your statement is only based on headcanon without clear evidence, Mona doesn't need vision because she already understands hydromancy without using vision.

and in fact the hilichurls only use words to summon elemental energy. Now please prove to me stronger evidence that magic is not elemental energy without the headcanon you did.

 

[Weaver261]

Yes, that's how it is, Mona once used it when she wanted to see the fate of a traveler

Can't believe you are this level of ....... I showed you that statement becuz Mona explictly said Vision does nothing for her hydromancy. And you are still saying mona used hydro energy for her hydromancy. No, humans can't use elemental energy without vision.

and in fact the hilichurls only use words to summon elemental energy. Now please prove to me stronger evidence that magic is not elemental energy without the headcanon you did.

Hilichurls using words to summon elemental energy has nothing to do with magic. There's no statements about magic in hilichurls using magic. You should provide one before bringing this up.

are you asking me for proof? where the opposition is the one who has to prove that magic is not elemental energy, I have given you a lot of evidence about the relationship between magic and elementals, and you only rely on vision, Mona uses energy when doing magic and that is a fact, while your statement is only based on headcanon without clear evidence, Mona doesn't need vision because she already understands hydromancy without using vision.

Admins will be the judge of this. I have nothing to say more since I've already provided enough information.

 

[Dog3352]

Yes, that's how it is, Mona once used it when she wanted to see the fate of a traveler

I think you didn't realize that weaver's point is the fact that Mona already uses hydromance before being able to have her vision or use elementary energy, and even after getting her vision and the ability to use elementary energy, it has not changed in nothing Mona hydromance, and no elementary energy or vision is required to use hydromance.

are you asking me for proof? where the opposition is the one who has to prove that magic is not elemental energy

Literally all of them have been refuted, the only point of yours that you continue to mention is the fact that the elements are called "magic", while completely ignoring the fact that several things that do not use elementary energy are also called magic.

Mona uses energy when doing magic and that is a fact, while your statement is only based on headcanon without clear evidence, Mona doesn't need vision because she already understands hydromancy without using vision.

This is simply contradictory to everything Mona says, she literally says that getting a vision and the ability to manipulate elements has not helped her in her learning with magic, she literally says that vision is useless in her learning, so no, she No need for vision to use magic, especially hydromance.

and in fact the hilichurls only use words to summon elemental energy.

The reason why the Samachurls invoke elements is due to themselves capable of this, and they use the scroll precisely because their ability to use elements is limited, they not only use words, but also elementary energy and magic scrolls , the scrolls are "magic" because they help them use elementary energy in some way, it is basically a catalyst, the word "magic" is being used to refer specifically to the elements.

Shamans of the hilichurl tribes. They display a limited ability to harness elemental energy.
"While their masks are made with the intent of instilling fear in their enemies, their designs come across as more charming than frightening." — Jacob Musk

Meanwhile, Nilou purely uses the words, and does not invoke any element with it, one has nothing to do with another, besides being unable to use elementary energy at that time.

 

[Furina003]

since you want the answer so much, I will give you, it is not really necessary to understand the elements or the elementary energy to understand magic, the smooth point, is that Lisa it wanted to understand the elementary elements/energy to study as deep as possible , because there are studies that only come if the person understands the elements, Lisa herself studied magic long before having a vision and even before trying to understand the elements deeper.

Well, you yourself explained that to study magic you have to understand elemental energy, that's why the magic guide explains about elementals, this is what I mean by the relationship between elemental energy and magic and because of this, why hydromancy uses magic.

The reason for this statement is because there are things in the world that can only be learned if the person understands the elements deeper, not that to learn/understand magic in general it is necessary to know about the elements, since Lisa was already studying magic before having a vision or studying the elements deeper, just as Mona already studied and used magic before obtaining her vision.

Yes, to understand magic more deeply you have to understand elemental energy, in fact you already know, this is the relationship between elemental energy and magic. If it's not related then there's no need to understand elemental energy when using magic

youkais usually doesn't even have visions, very few have, and even less can use Energy Elementary, most of them can't.

No, they do not study magics because they are unable to use elements without vision, some study to learn to use/control elementary energy (such as Razor, who learned from Lisa), or to try to find out all about the elements and their own Secrets (which is the case with Lisa, being why she got a vision).

This doesn't even argue in the slightest about the transfer between magic and elemental energy, the fact is that youkai do use elemental power, and magic does come from elemental energy, the scattered elemental energy can be understood by humans therefore they can use magic, and that is also why vision is called external magic because this does not come from within humans but is given to the gods.

Lmao. This is not hydromance, it is just mona doing a magical circle with Hydro, hydromance is specifically and only the ability to see the future for the stars reflected in water, there is nothing to do with magical circles, vision, hydro, and nothing of the type.

Unlike the hilichurls that invoke elements with words/enchantments and magical scrolls made specifically to invoke elements, Nilou just speaks and the thing happens.

One uses magic scrolls specifically to invoke elements, the other is just the words, they are two completely different things.

bro, you don't even know that when Mona wanted to see the fate, she used this, try to prove it to me that it's not hydromancy, don't tell me it's just your assumption.
Nilou uses words because she acts as a goddess in that world, hilichurls use words because they use magic scrolls, it's the same as magic, only the source is different.

 

[Furina003]

Can't believe you are this level of ....... I showed you that statement becuz Mona explictly said Vision does nothing for her hydromancy. And you are still saying mona used hydro energy for her hydromancy. No, humans can't use elemental energy without vision.

You're just using a headcanon, when in fact this is indeed hydromancy astrology

Hilichurls using words to summon elemental energy has nothing to do with magic. There's no statements about magic in hilichurls using magic. You should provide one before bringing this up.

How is there no permission with magic? It's been explained that it's magic that uses words, there is no statement hilichur uses magic? bruh witches don't use magic? and spells are not magic, it's a little funny haha

Admins will be the judge of this. I have nothing to say more since I've already provided enough information.

I agree, we have 2 votes agree and 2 votes disagree, it should take 2 more votes.

 

[Dog3352]

Well, you yourself explained that to study magic you have to understand elemental energy, that's why the magic guide explains about elementals, this is what I mean by the relationship between elemental energy and magic and because of this, why hydromancy uses magic.

When Lisa talks about "magic" here, she speaks specifically about the elements, she herself says that "having a vision would be a practical experience with magic," basically saying that the element would literally be the "magic" that she seeks knowledge.
In addition to even mentioning the magic books, which specifically teach about elements.

After all, understanding the elements is essential to the study of magic, and practical experience is a far more useful means of acquiring this understanding than trying to assimilate the knowledge contained in dusty old books.

"Hmm... I suppose I shall need a Vision, then."

And just like that, as that thought popped into her mind, her Vision popped into her hand.

With the aid of her Vision, Lisa acquired the knowledge that she sought. But she also sensed the deep secret hidden in the shadows of that knowledge.

Yes, to understand magic more deeply you have to understand elemental energy, in fact you already know, this is the relationship between elemental energy and magic. If it's not related then there's no need to understand elemental energy when using magic

As I said earlier, when talking about "magic," Lisa is referring to the elements, she makes it clear.

This doesn't even argue in the slightest about the transfer between magic and elemental energy, the fact is that youkai do use elemental power, and magic does come from elemental energy, the scattered elemental energy can be understood by humans therefore they can use magic, and that is also why vision is called external magic because this does not come from within humans but is given to the gods.

You keep completely ignoring the various characters that use magic even though they don't have elementary energy, you keep repeating the same thing, but in the meantime we have literal witches learning magic without even vision or elemental energy.

bro, you don't even know that when Mona wanted to see the fate, she used this, try to prove it to me that it's not hydromancy, don't tell me it's just your assumption.
Nilou uses words because she acts as a goddess in that world, hilichurls use words because they use magic scrolls, it's the same as magic, only the source is different.

Mona simply creates water using your vision so that she can see the reflection of water regardless of where it is, it is not necessary to use elementary energy or vision, but it uses it to be able to see the destination regardless of where it is, not to need for example, Look for a puddle of water or a river to see fate, and it says it uses hydromancie even before it has its vision or the ability to use elementary energy.

What is not yet refutes anything, it does not change the fact that a character without elementary energy is able to use the magic of witches creation.

It's not the same magic, Samachurls use words, scrolls and their own elementary energy to manipulate elements, Nilou uses only the words to change the world without any energy.

 

[Weaver261]

You're just using a headcanon, when in fact this is indeed hydromancy astrology

Mona, herself explained Hydromancy and it said nothing about using elemental energy.

You want me to explain how astrology works? I'm not sure you'd understand even if I told you. But since you ask... The method I use is called hydromancy. The art of inferring fate from the illusory reflection of the stars on the water's surface. The inverted reflection in the water is an image of the heavens from within which the truth of our world can be observed. ...It is the one and only success story of that old lady's research endeavors.

Mona simply use her vision to create water, so that she can see water reflection on the spot wherever she is. That's also why she said it does nothing but wet her. She also said multiple times about Vision serve no pratical use in her magic. Mona is a human and she can only use elemental energy through vision. If vision does not serve any pratical use for her magic, that means elemental energy is not necessary in using magic. But it's necessary in studying magic. You need to differentiate between this two.

 

[Furina003]

Mona, herself explained Hydromancy and it said nothing about using elemental energy.

Mona simply use her vision to create water, so that she can see water reflection on the spot wherever she is. That's also why she said it does nothing but wet her. She also said multiple times about Vision serve no pratical use in her magic. Mona is a human and she can only use elemental energy through vision. If vision does not serve any pratical use for her magic, that means elemental energy is not necessary in using magic. But it's necessary in studying magic. You need to differentiate between this two.

Didn't you already know that before you got vision, Mona was already using hydromancy? that's why he said he didn't need vision, because he could already use hydromancy before getting vision.

There is no need to differentiate because it has been proven that hydromancy is magic that uses elemental energy.

 

[Dog3352]

Didn't you already know that before you got vision, Mona was already using hydromancy? that's why he said he didn't need vision, because he could already use hydromancy before getting vision.

There is no need to differentiate because it has been proven that hydromancy is magic that uses elemental energy.

Okay, this is simply appeal to ignorance now, how would the hell be hydromance a magic that can only be used having elementary energy if Mona use long before being able to use elementary energy? Mona herself says she used Hydromance before she had her vision and being able to use elementary energy, and says the vision has not improved her hydromancy (only helped not to go to a place with water to use hydromancy).
As Mona said, hydromancy is the ability to see the future by reflecting the stars in water, without being necessary to use elementary energy or vision, hydromance even exists in real life.

 

[Furina003]

When Lisa talks about "magic" here, she speaks specifically about the elements, she herself says that "having a vision would be a practical experience with magic," basically saying that the element would literally be the "magic" that she seeks knowledge.
In addition to even mentioning the magic books, which specifically teach about elements.

he didn't talk specifically about elementals, but he emphasized that elemental energy was important when studying magic,
The magic guidebook studies hydro and anemo, which means that magic must study elemental energy

As I said earlier, when talking about "magic," Lisa is referring to the elements, she makes it clear.

You keep completely ignoring the various characters that use magic even though they don't have elementary energy, you keep repeating the same thing, but in the meantime we have literal witches learning magic without even vision or elemental energy.

How do you know they don't have basic energy? while elemental energy itself is the basis of the Genshin world which is spread throughout the world? Vision is not a benchmark for whether they have basic energy or not. Vision is external magic to strengthen humans against elemental manipulation. Humans who don't have vision can learn magic because they understand the elemental energy that exists in the world.

Mona simply creates water using your vision so that you can see the reflection of water regardless of where it is, it is not necessary to use elementary energy or vision, but it uses it to be able to see the destination regardless of where it is, not to need for example, Look for a puddle of water or a river to see fate, and it says it uses hydromancies even before it has its vision or the ability to use elementary energy.

Mona was able to use hydromancy before she used vision, which means her magic is related to elemental energy, That's why Mona says she doesn't need vision in astrology, because she could do this method before she got vision, she has been able to use hydromancy for a long time without vision. Once again, I say that vision is not basic energy. Basic energy is elemental vision, just a tool to manipulate basic energy given by the gods, so it is called external magic.

What is not yet refutes anything, it does not change the fact that a character without elementary energy is able to use the magic of witches creation.

It's not the same magic, Samachurls use words, scrolls and their own elementary energy to manipulate elements, Nilou uses only the words to change the world without any energy.

I already said that Nilou is playing the role given to her by the goddesses, while Samachurl is a witch who uses words. They are the same, only the methods and sources are different

 

[Furina003]

Okay, this is simply appeal to ignorance now, how would the hell be hydromance a magic that can only be used having elementary energy if Mona use long before being able to use elementary energy? Mona herself says she used Hydromance before she had her vision and being able to use elementary energy, and says the vision has not improved her hydromancy (only helped not to go to a place with water to use hydromancy).
As Mona said, hydromancy is the ability to see the future by reflecting the stars in water, without being necessary to use elementary energy or vision, hydromance even exists in real life.

Mona never shows herself using a container filled with water, so don't associate it with the real world, in fact Mona shows hydromancy as I just gave the video, stop for the headcanon

 

[Shey]

This whole Hydromancy point shouldn't be a whole back and forth, it's easy to comprehend

Mona could do Magic to perform Hydromancy, she was also given a Hydro Vision as a teaching aid, but Mona saw no practical purpose in it being a teaching aid.

All it does is produce Water for which she can use Hydromancy on, but it is not tied to her ability to perform Magic/the Elemental Energy isn't tied to her Magic

 

[Furina003]

This whole Hydromancy point shouldn't be a whole back and forth, it's easy to comprehend

Mona could do Magic to perform Hydromancy, she was also given a Hydro Vision as a teaching aid, but Mona saw no practical purpose in it being a teaching aid.

All it does is produce Water for which she can use Hydromancy on, but it is not tied to her ability to perform Magic/the Elemental Energy isn't tied to her Magic

The hydromancy method is indeed like that which I have shown before, its clear. Don't say she uses a container filled with water
because in fact she never shows it. hydromancy still uses hydro energy to do it.

 

[Shey]

Useless appeal to ignorance, Mona already makes it clear that having the ability to Manipulate Hydro is not needed to utilize Hydromancy

 

[Furina003]

Useless appeal to ignorance, Mona already makes it clear that having the ability to Manipulate Hydro is not needed to utilize Hydromancy

Yes, because Mona has mastered hydromancy before she got the vision,
so she said vision was useless for his astrology, and your statement is useless because there is no evidence that Mona doesn't use hydro energy, in fact it is clear in the video that she uses hydro energy.

 

[Shey]

Conceding to my point then saying it's useless in the same breath, ironic

You're not even comprehending properly, no one has even remotely implied "Mona doesn't use hydro energy". The point is Hydro manipulation granted by her vision is irrelevant to her ability to perform Hydromancy.

Hydromancy is not Hydro manipulation, it is Divination using Water

 

[Furina003]

I said your opinion is irrelevant because what you are doing is just guessing and speculating, in fact Mona is doing this using hydro energy, try showing me some evidence that Mona is not using hydro energy there, would you also say this is like in the real world only using a container of ordinary water? obviously it won't be useful because it's just a headcanon

 

[Dog3352]

he didn't talk specifically about elementals, but he emphasized that elemental energy was important when studying magic,
The magic guidebook studies hydro and anemo, which means that magic must study elemental energy

The books are said to be literally "to study magic", and the only thing they have in books are studies on elements, so yes, the "magic" is definitely the elements.
And Lisa says that "having a vision is a practical experience of magic", what makes no sense if magic were not elements.

How do you know they don't have basic energy? while elemental energy itself is the basis of the Genshin world which is spread throughout the world? Vision is not a benchmark for whether they have basic energy or not. Vision is external magic to strengthen humans against elemental manipulation. Humans who don't have vision can learn magic because they understand the elemental energy that exists in the world.

Because no human has never used elemental Energy without vision or delusion, one of the main differences between a human and an elemental being is exactly that humans are unable to use elementary energy without a vision, elementary energy exists around the world proves absolutely nothing. Yes, is, no human has never used elementary energy or elements without a vision.
Vision are artifacts that allow users to channel the powers of the elements, what you said here does not make the slightest sense.
How about showing a concrete evidence of a human without vision using elementary energy or elements? There is no, because they can't.

If humans already have elementary energy, why do all characters only have their elementary energy manifested when they gain vision? Why is no character shown using elementary energy without vision? If humans were able to use elementary energy, why did Lisa need a vision to study the elements? Stop inventing a headcanons you can't even prove.
One thing that makes the Traveller special and one thing that surprises everyone is Traveller's ability to use elemental energy/elements without using any vision, precisely because humans are unable to use elemental energy/elements without a vision. In addition to adeptus and archons themselves have a false vision to pretend they are able to use elemental energy by having visions to pretend to be human.

Mona was able to use hydromancy before she used vision, which means her magic is related to elemental energy, That's why Mona says she doesn't need vision in astrology, because she could do this method before she got vision, she has been able to use hydromancy for a long time without vision. Once again, I say that vision is not basic energy. Basic energy is elemental vision, just a tool to manipulate basic energy given by the gods, so it is called external magic.

Huh, what a totally meaningless and unfounded correlation is this? Mona had no elementary energy or vision before, you are just saying totally meaningless things as if they made any sense.
Yes, she did it because hydromance doesn't need elementary energy or vision to use.
Negative. For the beginning of all that vision is not really given by the gods, this is a story invented by humans. According to humans, they are unable to use elementary energy without a vision or delusion, no human used elementary energy without vision.

I already said that Nilou is playing the role given to her by the goddesses, while Samachurl is a witch who uses words. They are the same, only the methods and sources are different

And that keeps not changing the fact that a character unable to use elementary energy uses witches creation magic. Samachurls are not witchs, they are shamans, and they use their own elementary energy and magical scrolls to manipulate the elements, not purely the words as Nilou, so it's completely different.

Mona never shows herself using a container filled with water, so don't associate it with the real world, in fact Mona shows hydromancy as I just gave the video, stop for the headcanon

Mona literally said that this is how you use hydromance, you need to see the stars in the reflection of water, but Mona does not do this because it can simply create water with their hydro vision and see the reflection of the stars without looking for water.

The hydromancy method is indeed like that which I have shown before, its clear. Don't say she uses a container filled with water
because in fact she never shows it. hydromancy still uses hydro energy to do it.

The same thing I said above, you are simply by completely ignoring Mona herself saying that this is how hydromancy works.

Yes, because Mona has mastered hydromancy before she got the vision,
so she said vision was useless for his astrology, and your statement is useless because there is no evidence that Mona doesn't use hydro energy, in fact it is clear in the video that she uses hydro energy.

She uses her vision to create water to see the reflection of the stars without looking for a place with water, how difficult it is for you to understand this? Mona herself says she used Hydromance before she had vision and elementary energy and that vision has not changed her hydromancy at all.

 

[Dog3352]

Man, the arguments of Furina at the moment are just ignoring what the characters themselves and statements say, while inventing their own headcanons and claims that the declarations of the characters who are headcanons, can anyone send a message to one of the members to end it?

 

[Woomica]

I dont have time to read all this, but if opposition cannot prove that witches and archons can scale to each other, theres no reason to argue wether someone can use vision in simulanka or whatever thing about it is, as scaling would already be invalid and it would be wasting time to argue validity of it when no one even scales to it (even witches)

 

[JohnHendrix212]

How many mods agreed or disagreed with the thread already?

GarrixianXD's vote is invalidated, so it should be easier to get this thread passed. Been a while since this thread was created.

 

[Woomica]

How many mods agreed or disagreed with the thread already?

Ddm and Elizhaa

 

[Furina003]

How many mods agreed or disagreed with the thread already?

GarrixianXD's vote is invalidated, so it should be easier to get this thread passed. Been a while since this thread was created

voting position is still 2/2,

2 agree with the downgrade, 2 disagree with the downgrade,

this is considered not including Garri vote

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Someone should ping DDM or Elizhaa for re-evaluation, or some other mod, then.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ngl no one is reading 13 pages. Y'all should make a new fresh thread with new arguments and counterargs.

 

[Woomica]

Ngl no one is reading 13 pages. Y'all should make a new fresh thread with new arguments and counterargs.

i already asked for that

 

[StrymULTRA]

i already asked for that

Then do it urself

 

[Furina003]

Man, the arguments of Furina at the moment are just ignoring what the characters themselves and statements say, while inventing their own headcanons and claims that the declarations of the characters who are headcanons, can anyone send a message to one of the members to end it?

I'm just asking for proof that Mona used to use hydromancy differently from what she does now, but whatever, I'm tired of this thread.

that's my final argument, finish this thread, contact the moderator again to evaluate it again, I will accept any decision from this thread

 

[Dog3352]

I'm just asking for proof that Mona used to use hydromancy differently from what she does now, but whatever, I'm tired of this thread.

that's my final argument, finish this thread, contact the moderator again to evaluate it again, I will accept any decision from this thread

Dude ... as the hell she will use hydromancy when she didn't have a vision the same way she currently uses if the way she uses today is literally using her vision to invoke Hydro? If she had no vision before, then she obviously did not use the same way she uses today, and it is not possible to use that way if she does not have a Hydro vision, she learned Hydromance long before she had a vision, so she obviously used hydromance of normal way before.

 

[Furina003]

Dude ... as the hell she will use hydromancy when she didn't have a vision the same way she currently uses if the way she uses today is literally using her vision to invoke Hydro? If she had no vision before, then she obviously did not use the same way she uses today, and it is not possible to use that way if she does not have a Hydro vision, she learned Hydromance long before she had a vision, so she obviously used hydromance of Normal way before.

OK, I'll just accept it, and end this thread because I think it's been too long