Genos vs Cherish (Tiersetter Tourney R1M5)

[Agnaa]

We gather here today to discuss whether Genos will commit cannon-face, courtesy of my tourney.

Genos (Demon Cyborg) is in his Beginning of Series key.

Cherish will get one-shot by merely a strong sneeze from Genos.

Speed will be equalised. Other than that, the battle assumptions will be standard; starting range will be 4km from Cherish's emotion-sensing being city-wide.

Genos (Demon Cyborg): 2 (@Raiden38, @MrTayman616)

Cherish: 4 (@Ebihara, @DontTalkDT, @ProbNotAFelon, @DMUA)

Inconclusive: 1 (@Tago238)

@YmTheSuper @ProbNotAFelon

 

[Tago238]

I think Genos is just likely to kill her before she’s in a range where game end is really applicable. Iirc it had to be pretty close. Ofc Genos is obsessed with killing himself sp maybe there’d be less of a nudge required.

 

[DMUA]

If the city's evacuated, SBA says that they know the general direction of one another from the getgo and I really can't imagine an outcome besides Genos pulling out his guns and blowing her to kingdom come

I guess there's the argument he wouldn't want to do property damage and would at least wait for a direct visual, but he could fly up and use way better mobility to glean that and still kill her, I don't think it's his thing to default to point blank on an engagement

 

[DontTalkDT]

IIRC BoS Genos attacks from a distance to start, but not a 300m distance. Like against Mosquito he was maybe two dozen meters away when he sneak attacked her.

 

[Agnaa]

If the city's evacuated

Given SBA, I don't believe this is the case.

 

[Ebihara]

How long will it take for her to get genos to off himself?

 

[Agnaa]

How long will it take for her to get genos to off himself?

About 2-3 seconds.

EDIT: It would take her about 2-3 seconds to go from starting distance, to where she'd have Genos in range of her suicide-inducement. idk how long it takes for that ability to work once she activates it.

EDIT 2: And that's wrong, since speed equal equalizes speeds to the slower combatant, so it'd take quite a while for either to get in meaningful range of each other.

 

[DMUA]

Given SBA, I don't believe this is the case.

I guess SBA never really states if or if that's not an issue, it's just "location" and doesn't give any external information. I swear I remember it coming up back when we were trying to narrow down exactly what the conditions were back in the day, but I guess nothing ever got written down

Either way silly match

 

[DontTalkDT]

Does her emotion detecting allow her to track the location of Genos?

I guess SBA never really states if or if that's not an issue, it's just "location" and doesn't give any external information. I swear I remember it coming up back when we were trying to narrow down exactly what the conditions were back in the day, but I guess nothing ever got written down

Either way silly match

There were debates on that and IIRC it was decided that humans (or philosophical zombies) were around, but that the characters moral didn't really apply to them. Was supposed to be a compromise between that fact that humans are a resource that should reasonably be available and us not wanting all heroes to be nerfed by civilians.
But yeah, kinda never was officially written down.

 

[Ebihara]

I don't think genos would blow away a couple city blocks people included. He has waited before to make sure people where out of the area. I think she makes him off himself before he gets a safe shot. I'll vote cherish.

 

[Raiden38]

Genos destroy

 

[Apeironaxim]

Does her emotion detecting allow her to track the location of Genos?

Yes, she can track people

The other seven members of the Nine were out there. Not hard to find. One or two were interacting with some other outliers. The most ****** up people in this ****** up city. She’d studied each of these unknown outliers over the course of a week, watching their emotions shift as they went out about their lives, sometimes visiting the areas they tended to hang around, to get a sense of their environments.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Then 2 to 3 speed equal seconds from the time Genos enters her ability range should easily be long enough for her to win.

 

[Agnaa]

Oh shit sorry, I really misunderstood the question, my bad.

It's 2-3 seconds for her to go from the starting position to where her offensive abilities would be in-range.

I don't actually know how long her suicide-inducement takes from the time she initiates it. I'll edit my previous post to clarify.

EDIT: And this was wrong, since I misremembered which way the speed equal rules go, ****.

 

[MrTayman616]

I think Genos wins as well.

how long will it take for her to get genos to off himself?

Also does Cherish's ability work on cyborgs (Genos's memories etc. are seemingly fully in his core) to begin with?

And Genos's speed is enough for him to move hundreds of meters and finish her even before 2-3 seconds no?

 

[DontTalkDT]

And Genos's speed is enough for him to move hundreds of meters and finish her even before 2-3 seconds no?

Speed Equal, so he only moves peak human now.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Oh shit sorry, I really misunderstood the question, my bad.

It's 2-3 seconds for her to go from the starting position to where her offensive abilities would be in-range.

I don't actually know how long her suicide-inducement takes from the time she initiates it. I'll edit my previous post to clarify.

It's pretty quick

Two men sat on the steps outside the building. She knew immediately that they were soldiers, but they weren’t official. They wore black, and they wore body armor that she hadn’t seen before.

“No,” she stopped them from reaching from their guns with a mixture of doubt, apathy and anxiety. Complementing her words with a heavy surge of depression, guilt and self loathing, she ordered them, “Kill yourselves.”

It wasn’t immediate, but their willpower wasn’t enough to stave off some of the strongest and most agonizing emotions they would have felt in their lives. It was quick when their composure cracked, the guns flying to mouth and temple to fire.

The main thing is that it's not like most people will just be able to move regularly while being bombarded with such sudden and strong surges of emotion. So combined with being quick, it also buys her additional time as the target would be stunned for a sec and longer as they both get hit with the emotions and then subsequently try to resist quickly offing themselves. Especially since she can also just mix in doubt with the depression and self loathing, which further stalls an enemy as now they're doubting wanting to attack.

 

[MrTayman616]

Speed Equal, so he only moves peak human now.

Oh didn't see that :d

So it's a matter of how long it takes her to affect him(can she though since he's a cyborg who's memories etc. is seemingly in a core)?

"Cherish uses her lethal and incredibly powerful abilities without hesitation and to great effect, gaining information on her opponents and their movements from their emotions before toying with and eventually killing them" Her intelligence section talks about her like this, so she fights like this normally or she'll directly go to kill here?

Also even if Genos were to kill himself, how does he do it? He might just self destruct which would kill her too.

 

[Tago238]

Does anyone remember how long Cherish’s control takes? I genuinely can’t, I think there was an interlude or a chapter or something describing her controlling of somebody?

 

[Tago238]

Oh didn't see that :d

So it's a matter of how long it takes her to affect him(can she though since he's a cyborg who's memories etc. is seemingly in a core)?

"Cherish uses her lethal and incredibly powerful abilities without hesitation and to great effect, gaining information on her opponents and their movements from their emotions before toying with and eventually killing them" Her intelligence section talks about her like this, so she fights like this normally or she'll directly go to kill here?

Also even if Genos were to kill himself, how does he do it? He might just self destruct which would kill her too.

Yeah I joked about the fact that Genos is like, obsessed with doing it that way so much that his character development is just not doing that. I’m pretty sure he would self destruct lol.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Oh didn't see that :d

So it's a matter of how long it takes her to affect him(can she though since he's a cyborg who's memories etc. is seemingly in a core)?

"Cherish uses her lethal and incredibly powerful abilities without hesitation and to great effect, gaining information on her opponents and their movements from their emotions before toying with and eventually killing them" Her intelligence section talks about her like this, so she fights like this normally or she'll directly go to kill here?

Also even if Genos were to kill himself, how does he do it? He might just self destruct which would kill her too.

He seems to still have his brain, which is the important bit.

Also, i cannot find anything in his profile at a quick glance which suggests his self destruct is hundreds of meters. If it is, it should be on the profile

 

[DMUA]

Does anyone remember how long Cherish’s control takes? I genuinely can’t, I think there was an interlude or a chapter or something describing her controlling of somebody?

Interlude 11g, she sees some people, immediately bars them from wanting to hurt her and then pushes them to suicide

Two men sat on the steps outside the building. She knew immediately that they were soldiers, but they weren’t official. They wore black, and they wore body armor that she hadn’t seen before.

“No,” she stopped them from reaching from their guns with a mixture of doubt, apathy and anxiety. Complementing her words with a heavy surge of depression, guilt and self loathing, she ordered them, “Kill yourselves.”

It wasn’t immediate, but their willpower wasn’t enough to stave off some of the strongest and most agonizing emotions they would have felt in their lives. It was quick when their composure cracked, the guns flying to mouth and temple to fire.

 

[Tago238]

Interlude 11g, she sees some people, immediately bars them from wanting to hurt her and then pushes them to suicide

Oh yeah this was the interlude I was thinking of.

 

[Tago238]

He seems to still have his brain, which is the important bit.

Also, i cannot find anything in his profile at a quick glance which suggests his self destruct is hundreds of meters. If it is, it should be on the profile

Can Cherish get people to kill themselves from hundreds of metres away? Seems her powers are stronger the closer she is in the same way as Regent’s, and there’s nothing indicating she was hundreds of metres away from those soldiers who, like, saw her.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I will vote Cherish. I think before Genos comes close enough to incinerate her she would have sensed his presence and make him kill suicide.
Edit: Or manipulate him enough to have him hesitate to shoot her before coming closer, like in her range quote.

 

[MrTayman616]

He seems to still have his brain, which is the important bit.

Also, i cannot find anything in his profile at a quick glance which suggests his self destruct is hundreds of meters. If it is, it should be on the profile

In a OVA episode, when Saitama accidentally hit him. He had a system error which caused him to forget his memories and had personality and emotion issues. So it should matter here if she can affect a cyborg which i don't think it is the case.

Genos in later arcs says that his self destruction affects 5 km radius distance. I don't remember his core changing, so it should still be the same. Even if not, it should be higher than his other attacks in beginning version which his casual beams can affect 500 meters.

 

[Tago238]

I will vote Cherish. I think before Genos comes close enough to incinerate her she would have sensed his presence and make him kill suicide.
Edit: Or manipulate him enough to have him hesitate to shoot her before coming closer, like in her range quote.

I actually think it’s an incon cause Genos blows himself up.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Can Cherish get people to kill themselves from hundreds of metres away? Seems her powers are stronger the closer she is in the same way as Regent’s, and there’s nothing indicating she was hundreds of metres away from those soldiers who, like, saw her.

Cherish's supposed drop in potency over range just doesn't manifest itself in any meaningful way we see

Spoiler: Cherish Range

Our setup put Grue, Ballistic and Sirius directly behind the Nine, along with the metal cases of supplies we’d strapped to Sirius’ sides. Trickster and Regent were mounted on Genesis, who had taken a form not unlike the dogs. The trio were positioned to the Nine’s left. By contrast, my group, with Sundancer, Bitch and Bentley, were positioned to their right.

Each of us were a little over a thousand feet away from the Nine, three city blocks, give or take. It meant my allies were out of range of my powers. It was a drawback, but I hoped it would balance out.

[...]

“He’s chickening out.”

He’s supposed to handle Cherish. I glanced at the Nine. No sign of anything from her. She was standing apart from the rest of the group, her arms folded.

“She looks like someone I used to know,” Ballistic said, as if that was some kind of answer.

“Who?” Trickster asked.

“Sadie. From seventh grade.”

“Nope,” Trickster replied. “Not in the slightest. Your head’s ******* with you. Get the job done.”

“But-”

Trickster’s voice was as hard as I’d ever heard it. “Now. Remember the deal we made. Our promise to each other and to Noelle. Don’t **** this up.”

Ballistic hesitated. Through the scope of my binoculars, I could see him holding the foot-ball sized warhead in his hands. “She’s a human being, someone with feelings, and tastes and-”

- Snare 13.6

Here she's making Ballistic, who a chapter before was saying how the Slaughterhouse Nine aren't even people, they're just monsters and deserved to be wiped off the planet, to suddenly not want to take fire just because she maybe resembles a girl from 7th grade, suddenly now caring how she's a person out of nowhere from said 1000 ft.

“Everyone needs to be willing to do this if we’re going to move forward. I’m not just talking about attacking these guys. Sundancer, Ballistic, you guys have been holding back for a long time. I know it’s asking a hell of a lot, but… are you guys prepared to kill?”

Silence hung in the air for a few long seconds.

“Yeah,” Ballistic said. “If it’s monsters like that? I think I could.”

Sundancer hesitated. She hugged her arms against her body, lips pursed.

“Mars,” Trickster said, his voice quiet, “You’ve killed before.”

“Accidentally.”

I thought back to her hesitation to use her power, back when we’d fought Oni Lee and Lung together.

“These guys aren’t bystanders, they’re not people,” Ballistic said. “They don’t even resemble people. They’re freaks, monsters. The worst this planet has to offer.”

So i do not think the supposed potency drop off manifests in any notable way that drops her chances

 

[Agnaa]

In a OVA episode, when Saitama accidentally hit him. He had a system error which caused him to forget his memories and had personality and emotion issues. So it should matter here if she can affect a cyborg which i don't think it is the case.

Genos in later arcs says that his self destruction affects 5 km radius distance. I don't remember his core changing, so it should still be the same. Even if not, it should be higher than his other attacks in beginning version which his casual beams can affect 500 meters.

Can you show scans for the beams having an AoE of 500 meters? Since if it's just range, that isn't super relevant (you wouldn't scale the range of a sniper rifle to the AoE of a bomb).

 

[Tago238]

Cherish's supposed drop in potency over range just doesn't manifest itself in any meaningful way we see

Here she's making Ballistic, who a chapter before was saying how the Slaughterhouse Nine aren't even people, they're just monsters and deserved to be wiped off the planet, to suddenly not want to take fire just because she maybe resembles a girl from 7th grade, suddenly now caring how she's a person out of nowhere from said 1000 ft.

I’ll repeat what I said on discord.

Yeah she can stop someone from attacking but I think getting someone to kill themselves is more difficult. Specifically the whole thing about her getting those guys to kill themselves so quickly was because she forced them to experience grief they never had experienced before in their lives, whereas high indecision that is weird in context (context doesn’t really matter cause Cherish shifts context, her abilities are described as not really clashing against that so much more than manipulating it) seems to not be at the same level.


As for the ease of which one would get Genos to kill himself, I should say a key point is she promotes action through choosing whatever emotion she thinks causes that action. She can detect emotions, but she can’t fundamentally tell what emotions promote what actions for people (it’s just that for most people it works the same) For Genos, his willingness to kill himself never occurs from grief (everyone he loved died and he still kept fighting), it more occurs from a strong sense of moral duty.


So nah I think she would have to be closer to Genos to get him to milk himself

 

[MrTayman616]

Can you show scans for the beams having an AoE of 500 meters? Since if it's just range, that isn't super relevant (you wouldn't scale the range of a sniper rifle to the AoE of a bomb).

This? His profile also says hundreds of meters via his cannons as well.

 

[Apeironaxim]

She can detect emotions, but she can’t fundamentally tell what emotions promote what actions for people (it’s just that for most people it works the same)

Not quite. Her emotion sensing is potent enough to tell even the context related to the emotions

He went for his gun, but he didn’t get that far. She closed her eyes for a moment, listened for the music that came from his mind and body. The jangling, dissonant noise of alarm, the throbbing percussion of mortal fear, every part of his body shifting into fight or flight mode. The underlying notes spoke to his personality. His love of his family, his fear that he was about to leave them behind, anger towards her, a momentary anxiety that he was overreacting. She grasped this in the fraction of a second.

- Interlude 11g

 

[Tago238]

In a OVA episode, when Saitama accidentally hit him. He had a system error which caused him to forget his memories and had personality and emotion issues. So it should matter here if she can affect a cyborg which i don't think it is the case.

Genos in later arcs says that his self destruction affects 5 km radius distance. I don't remember his core changing, so it should still be the same. Even if not, it should be higher than his other attacks in beginning version which his casual beams can affect 500 meters.

Btw when is it stated his core explosion is 500 metres?

 

[Apeironaxim]

This? His profile also says hundreds of meters via his cannons as well.

I don't agree. This is just him saying he can start blasting stuff without any care because everything is clear for 500 meters, not that his blasts are specifically and exactly 500 meters AoE, let alone his self destruction

 

[Tago238]

Not quite. Her emotion sensing is potent enough to tell even the context related to the emotions

Sure, but it’s clearly doesn’t provide a full map of someone’s psyche, just what they’re feeling at the present and the context behind that. Can you a) justify her detecting Genos’ suicidal pragmatism and b) justify that Genos’ suicidal pragmatism is even particularly abnormal? From my perspective, half the times he was going to use it he was going to die anyway and the other half of the time there would be an amount of casualties he wouldn’t be able to live with the guilt with were he not to intervene. These seem to be pretty normal reactions all things considered, I definitely don’t think Genos gets triggered by the same potency of emotion as making someone at a range operate on nostalgia and indecision.

 

[Apeironaxim]

I would also like to say that Cherish's entire plan with joining the Slaughterhouse Nine was to slowly condition them to adore and be addicted to her. Doing so slowly because her power doesn't have lasting effects by itself without her actively exerting it, so she has to condition people the pavlov/traditional way for permanent effects, and very sudden spikes of love toward her would just make the more immune members like Siberian rip her apart. She is also seen making a bunch of guys love and adore her to be her personal servants for fun. This means Cherish's wincon isn't only inducing suicide, but also essentially incapping Genos by just making him not attack her/be her guard dog/plaything for the required time limit for it to count as a win. It's just the suicide thing is what most focus on. Whether she would go for this i do not know, but considering she wanted to try it, albeit in a slower way with people like complete powerhouse monsters with the S9 (though again her playing the long game was due to other context), i think it's an equally likely avenue for her, as she likes having people at her beck and call

 

[MrTayman616]

Btw when is it stated his core explosion is 500 metres?

It's been stated to be 5 km. His cannons are 500 meters so i just said it's probably relative or higher. There are also cases like him hitting one mountain from another. It is a different key(one key later) but the parts he uses here aren't an update but spare parts. just giving it for example.

I don't agree. This is just him saying he can start blasting stuff without any care because everything is clear for 500 meters, not that his blasts are specifically and exactly 500 meters AoE, let alone his self destruction

I give it for comparison rather than a full statement for core. His cannons are accepted as 500 meters. Also Genos can scan the lifes around instantly, no reason for him to say it like that here.

 

[MrTayman616]

Anyway, I honestly don't think she'll be able to affect him at all with her abilities considering he's a cyborg who's memories etc. is in his core. Ova episode has also shown that when Saitama accidentally hit Genos and caused him to have a memory loss because of an technical error. It caused him to not only lose his memories, but caused him to have emotional and personality issues. He acts like a tough guy, a little brother, being a shy person etc etc. his emotions were heavily affected by this.

Genos should take this easily.

 

[ProbNotAFelon]

Let me address the main points I see being made against Cherish

Point 1:

Cherish's powers get weaker with distance/she will not be able to make Genos kill himself

Even though it's stated in the story, the thing about Cherish's powers getting weaker over long distance is just not true.

• She makes a guy go from genuinely believing she is a monster who deserves to die brutally to not wanting to kill her at all while he is 1,000 feet away from her.
• She makes an insane, murderous supervillain kill themself at the exact edge of her range within a few seconds. This is extra impressive because said supervillain, after dying, would be doomed to an eternal existence as a voice in someone else's head, which they knew fully. In addition, this person had thirteen other voices in their head yelling at them not to kill themself.

And as for the power taking too long to make Genos do anything/being too weak:

• She makes two highly-trained soldiers working for supervillains kill themselves in a few seconds.
• She is able to make parents mutilate and kill their own children and even make them enjoy it.

Point 2:

Her power won't work on Genos because he is a cyborg and his memories are stored in a core

I don't see how this would change anything. Does he still feel emotions? If so, her power should work just fine.

Point 3:

Genos will blast her at range before she can do anything

While it is true that Genos has longer range on his blasts, they're starting farther apart than either of them can effectively reach. Speed is also equalized, so they are both moving at peak human speeds. As such, it would take a while before either of them can reach the other.
Cherish has no reason to engage in a direct confrontation, and she can track Genos's position at all times. She can just hide somewhere and wait for him to enter her range.

Point 4:

Genos's self-destruction will kill Cherish even if she can make him kill himself

Cherish can do more than just make him suicidal. She can make him apathetic and doubtful to the point where he does nothing. She can give him extreme fear so he cowers in a corner until it's considered an incap. She can make him like her and want to be her friend/give up on fighting her entirely.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Let me address the main points I see being made against Cherish

Point 1:

Even though it's stated in the story, the thing about Cherish's powers getting weaker over long distance is just not true.

• She makes a guy go from genuinely believing she is a monster who deserves to die brutally to not wanting to kill her at all while he is 1,000 feet away from her.
• She makes an insane, murderous supervillain kill themself at the exact edge of her range within a few seconds. This is extra impressive because said supervillain, after dying, would be doomed to an eternal existence as a voice in someone else's head, which they knew fully. In addition, this person had thirteen other voices in their head yelling at them not to kill themself.

It can easily be true but that 1000 ft is just not the range where it shows a drop in potency in any meaningful way. Idk why you'd go straight to assuming it's not real. The Butcher thing is also dubious because we know Bonesaw cranked up her power as part of the torture in her Mannequin box. Now i guess you could argue the boost would just be to range and not potency, but i'd still rather not hinge an argument on Cherish when she's in that state, especially when other showings show the same level of potency without any ambiguity