Genichiro and Owl Downgrade - Sekiro CRT

[Yobo_Blue]

This has been nagging at me for a while. Low 7-B Genichiro with the Black Mortal Blade is kind of BS


It doesn't make logical sense
The weakest part of the argument, but still important. It doesn't make sense for Genichiro to have such a massive boost merely from wielding the Mortal Blade, especially since A. A weapon shouldn't increase durability unless stated and B. The Black Mortal Blade isn't stated to amp the user at all. At best, it would be "Low 7-B with the Black Mortal Blade", which is more reasonable considering how the game treats him. Speaking of which...

Both gameplay and story contradict this level of power
The fact that Genichiro can harm Wolf at all seems to fall under Game Mechanics, and even then, his boss fight is treated as a warm up for Isshin the Sword Saint and is much easier than the other Low 7-B boss fights, and only takes one deathblow in comparison to the two of nearly every other boss and the three of Isshin immediately after and Demon of Hatred before. In the story proper, Wolf is completely unharmed after their battle, doesn't show any signs of exertion, and clearly is above Genichiro, with him even stating that he's powerless in compariso. Genichiro is pushed to summon Isshin because of the difference in power.

The consistency of this is questionable at best
Great Shinobi Owl has Low 7-B for killing Genichiro in his second key, but is clearly shown not to be this level scaling wise. Owl considers old Isshin Ashina to be a powerful foe and is pretty easily killed by a late game Wolf who had difficulty with the latter. It doesn't make sense for Genichiro to be Low 7-B when he is clearly below either of those people, and Owl should not be either.

TL;DR, Genichiro should be 8-C, possibly 8-B, maybe Low 7-B with the Black Mortal Blade if we're playing up his glass cannon status.

 

[DMUA]

I dunno if the mortal blade actually increases AP so I think I'm fine with this, Genichiro kinda gets completely punked to the point his granddad comes back from the dead purely because of how weak he was

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'm fairly certain the sediment is what boosted Genichiro, not the mortal blade so it would scale to his durability not just ap

The "wolf was completely unharmed" argument is kinda meh overall considering the only two cutscenes wolf is even hurt in are, when he is stabbed after the lady butterfly fight, and when his hand is cut off in the prologue.

Genichiro summoning his grandfather could be because Isshin is both more skilled and stronger than himself even if they are in the same tier.

The whole 1 deathblow thing is also kinda meh its just game mechanics since fromsoft doesn't want to give the fight more phases if you want to use deathblows as an argument for scaling then this boosted Genichiro is weaker than the Genichiro from the prologue and the one from Ashina castle which doesn't exactly make sense considering we know the waters and sediment boost the physical capabolities of those who consume it which is why it was so coveted, it wasn't just for the resurrection.

Owl considering Isshin a threat despite killing Genichiro doesn't mean he wouldn't scale. Isshin is a threat since Owl knows what his is capable of from watching him in battle and likely is playing up his legendary status as an excuse for not having to risk anything at all. Wolf kills Owl by stabbing him in the back while he is distracted, which has been shown to 1 shot comparable oppnents, and is supposed to be thematic since that's how Owl killed Wolf before.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I mean


if Owl is comparable to middle game Wolf, that's still a anti feat.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Let me rephrase

It can kill those comparable to or stronger than Wolf

 

[Yobo_Blue]

What's the highest difference he's actually closed just with a backstab tho?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Additionally, the way the profile is structured Genichiro after the Sediment and after The Mortal Blade are clearly two different keys.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Not sure, he closed the difference between himself and the snake with a stab to the head and a stab to the eye previously at the least

No actually the profile is Base then Way of Tomoe which is pre sediment then with the Black Mortal Blade which is the only time he is fought post sediment

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It looks to me he has the sediment immortality before that tho

 

[Yobo_Blue]

We also give Wolf his current AP of 8-B because of those snake stabs, so they aren't higher than his usual AP

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean. This is already what we do, no? His whole key is dedicated to "with the Black Mortal Blade". That's literally the key.

Ah yes. Genichiro can only harm Wolf due to game mechanics. Not at all because he canonically lops off an arm, presents a legitimate threat at the end of the game, and is just... a general boss. Of course. Just game mechanics. Clearly the lore is incorrect because it is game mechanics.

As for the last part. Scaling chains explain this easily. Genichiro can in fact be weaker than other Low 7-Bs and still be Low 7-B. This is the same for Owl. If it was said that Genichiro was directly weaker than the Divine Dragon then maybe I could see credence in this final issue, but he isn't, he's just lower in the Low 7-B scaling chain. Owl is above him and weaker than Isshin (which literally just makes him not the strongest guy in the verse). Cool.

TL;DR nothing presented actually disproves Low 7-B.

 

[DMUA]

He cut his arm off when he was 9-A, don't see why that invalidates the fact that Genichiro pretty much got stomped by Wolf at the end of the game and Isshin literally stepped up to the bat and said he was way too weak

 

[Yobo_Blue]

He was weaker than 8-B isshin tho

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@DMUA

He then went 8-C to 8-B in Way of Tomoe by once again posing significant deterent to Wolf in early-game. Then he appeared yet again blocking Wolf's path well after the Divine Dragon fight (Low 7-B Wolf). This is all canon. The fact that Genichiro is weaker than Wolf by the end of the game doesn't invalidate scaling.

@Yobo

I mean. Cool? AP can rise.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'll reply to your post in a bit.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I will say though, if Old Owl is Low 7-B, Younger Owl should also be Low 7-B, the same Younger Owl that trained Wolf and fought him in one of the endings.

This should scale to Lady Butterfly.

 

[QrowBarr]

If this gets rejected we'll have to upgrade Shura-Ending Isshin to Low 7-B and maybe Lady Butterfly?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm... iffy, basically, for Lady Butterfly tbh. Her having trained with Owl could imply that or just leave her physically frail nowadays since she largely fights with illusions anyways.

 

[Antydeth]

AP should be scaled by how fast characters can fill Wolf's Posture bar and Durability should be scaled by how fast Wolf can fill THEIR Posture bar.

Genichiro as the pre-final boss can actually woop the floor with you if you aren't paying enough attention. I think I've died more to him than to Isshin's 1st and 3rd Phases. That's why I think his placement is justified.

 

[Antydeth]

Also, @Yobo Blue, by your logic, both versions of Isshin are far weaker than Wolf, since he doesn't seem injuried or exhausted in the slightest in the cinematics.