General Fire Emblem Upgrades

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, most likely

 

[Theglassman12]

also, what about the villains, would they have the soul manipulation thing as well?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They might as well, some characters such as Jedah already has actual soul manipulation. And yeah, no reason not to assume characters like Camus/Zeke have soul manipulation while Berkut doesn't for example.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Yeah, everyone gets Soul Manip

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Taken care of everyone from FE 1, 3, 11, 12, and 13.

 

[Theglassman12]

Done with FE 4, 9, 10, and the royals of 14 (including Sumeragi and Garon since they technically count as royals.)

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Done with 6, 7, and 8, almost done with 2/15 (Forgotten about Thanatophages/Risen Bugs), gonna move on to the "everyone else" of 14 and then do the bugs

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Alright, I finished up

 

[Theglassman12]

Awesome, so should this be closed now?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Unless anyone has anything to add, yeah

 

[PaChi2]

I ask if Empathic Manipulation would be okaish for Gharnef given that he "reinforced" Hardin's feelings of jealousy and used them to turn him into evil.

 

[PaChi2]

Also why doesnt gharnef have resurrection in his profile when its in his AP descriptiom that he revived Medeus?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

iirc wasn't it the Darksphere that did that

But yeah, it's fine

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty sure Gharnef should have Immortality type 8 thanks to Dark Sphere.

 

[PaChi2]

iirc wasn't it the Darksphere that did that

But yeah, it's fine

Its in his standard equipment, so it should be okay.

also, Illusion creation for Gharnef lol!

Remember his map in Shadow dragon?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Yeah

 

[PaChi2]

When this turns into a Gharnef addition thread

I was wondering if we could rate Imhullu as "Barrier Creation", which makes sense since the spell nulls damage. Quoting Gharnef: Your blade is dull against me. And said barrier is bypassed by Starlight.

It makes sense imho.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Actually, we rate Imhullu as mindhax because that's what the Darksphere does

 

[PaChi2]

Actually, we rate Imhullu as mindhax because that's what the Darksphere does

Imhully was crafted from the Darksphere. Doesnt mean its the same as the darksphere, tho. Its an unique spell. Gotoh explained that the Imhullu spe─║l was stolen from him.

Also, I think Anankos' profile is missing some ablities.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Well, either that or we give Gharnef his Invulnerability back, and he keeps mindhax via the Darksphere

 

[fandom_12cheeper]

Imhully was crafted from the Darksphere. Doesnt mean its the same as the darksphere, tho. Its an unique spell. Gotoh explained that the Imhullu spe─║l was stolen from him.

Also, I think Anankos' profile is missing some ablities.

Gharnef and by extension Imhullu has 2 seemingly contradictory origins to it.In Shadow Dragon Gotoh states that Gharnef stole Imhullu because he was upset that Gotoh made Miloah his successor and ound Aura to his bloodline but in mystery of the emblem it's stated that what Gharnef ACTUALLY stole was the darksphere and created Imhullu by binding its power to a tome.Given that the function of the darksphere is an actual plot point in mystery of the emblem and doesn't technically contradict how it worked in shadow dragon I'm more inclined to believe that the second explanation is true and Gotoh just pulled an Obi-wan in Shadow Dragon because he didn't want to burden humans with the knowledge of the gemstones and shield of seals..

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

I also think it's less of an assumption to say that Imhullu, forged from the Darksphere, should still have the same abilities instead of Barrier Creation/Invulnerability

 

[fandom_12cheeper]

I also think it's less of an assumption to say that Imhullu, forged from the Darksphere, should still have the same abilities instead of Barrier Creation/Invulnerability

Pretty much this.

Also,at resurrection stuff IIRC that wasn't necessarily the darksphere.I don't think it's ever actually specified how he did it.Though even then Medeus was just in a deep slumber and wasn't actually dead because earth dragons have an enormous amount of quintessence which makes them stupidly hard to kill(which is actually how they managed to kill most of the divine dragons)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, it's obviously not 100% Invulnerability, but it still makes him invulnerable to all in game attacks accept Starlight. And even Large Country level characters were unable to harm him; Divine Dragon Tiki, King Cornelius with Falchion, ect.

 

[fandom_12cheeper]

Well, it's obviously not 100% Invulnerability, but it still makes him invulnerable to all in game attacks accept Starlight. And even Large Country level characters were unable to harm him; Divine Dragon Tiki, King Cornelius with Falchion, ect.

Cornelius never fought him.That was OVA and manga only.In the games he was stabbed in the back by Jiol.Gharnef has never fought a Falchion user at any point. All that Tiki succumbing to him implies is that she lacks the mental resistance which yeah,no duh he actually brainwashed her in shadow dragon.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The games never specified how he died. It simply said Jiol and his Gra troops betrayed Altea on top of the other forces far outnumbering Altea. Plus, Gharnef was the one who takes the Falchion, implying he must have been at least present when Cornelius fell. And I know that about Tiki being mind controlled, but after recruiting her, Tiki is still incapable of harming or killing Gharnef.

 

[fandom_12cheeper]

Yes,because Imhullus mind hax prevents Tiki from moving.No duh. And no,Gharnef wasn't necessarily there.The whole reason the liberation army went to Gra to begin with was because Jiol took it with him on top of Marth getting revenge on the man who murdered his father 2 years prior.There's actually a huge gap timeline wise. Its not only the simplest conclusion to assume that Jiol was the one who killed Cornelius it kinda defeats the point of the chapter being Marth avenging his daddy's death if Gharnef was the actual killer.Besides,there's no actual indication that Falchion actually increases durability.Most other games signal the stat boost by increasing the users stats or promoting them but nothing,not even in-game dialogue suggests that Falchion physically amps the user.Maybe it'll be retconned in a potential do over of the Archanean remakes but as of now it's perfectly plausible that Jiol was able to kill Cornelius Falchion or no Falchion.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

FE3 has it where Falchion grants the user invulnerability to all Non-Earth Dragon attacks. It was removed in the remakes solely because the creators deemed it "Too OP please nerf" kind of thing. Additionally, it's a fact that with Falchion, the characters can legit take hits from Medeus, Duma, Grima, ect. So it stands to reason why it enhances durability, in addition to Newton's Third Law. And more recent Fire Emblem games gives some lore mentioning the Falchion granting Naga's Divine Protection.

That's more so Gra betrayed Altea was one factor that lead to Cornelius death; simply means Cornelius could have. Still, Jiol was described as being a coward and a weakling compared to Camus, Michaelis, and Gharnef. Yes, Marth got revenge because Jiol's betrayal is still something that lead to his defeat, but that doesn't mean Jiol was legit the one who finished Cornelius. It's possible his troops were ambushed and Cornelius was alone when Gharnef came. And still, Gharnef was the one who took Falchion; and it was discovered after defeating Jiol that Jiol was just a puppet of Gharnef.

 

[fandom_12cheeper]

You don't mind being pressed a bit,do you?Now you are suggesting country level Imhullu are you not?Logically this would apply to it's DC as well since the defensive capabilities as well as its offensive ones come from the same source,no?Well,following this train of logic we would naturally have to apply country level durability to Linde and possibly to Merric or Wendall because one of them had to be the one to fight Gharnef which would most likely include getting hit a few times(essentially the same idea behind the dura of the Falchion users)though most likely Linde was the one this would canonically apply to.(Avenging her father by murdering Gharnef was her whole goal,she uses starlight in warriors etc)

Also btw that Falchion spiel you had at the beginning was from shadow dragon nes aka FE1 before the lore was really established.FE3 was actually the first game to remove that little ability.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Uh no, Imhullu is not Large Country level. It's hax he used to get around it, as well as hax that grants Gharnef protection. And oh, my mistake then; still been a long time since I played the Famicom versions but still. Only reason it was removed was because of the please nerf, too OP thing I mentioned. No one except Falchion users, Medeus, Divine Dragon Tiki, Grima, Naga, Loptyr, Duma, and Mila is tier 6. Also, Attack Potency =/= Destructive capacity. Just because Falchion doesn't destroy countries doesn't mean it's not designed to kill Country level beings. And Starlight is Imhullu's Kryptonite, that's how they were able to defeat Gharnef.

Also, Marth's Falchion is still canonically > Tiki as Tiki is still the secondary option where as Marth using the Falchion is the primary canon that slays Medeus. Additionally, Tiki is only superior to Earth Dragon Medeus, she's definitely weaker than his Dark Dragon form. Where as Marth with Falchion is superior to both of them.

 

[fandom_12cheeper]

Oh boy,Completely unkillable except for a magic that only exists in his universe and who's only discernible traits are "nullifys the effects of Imhullu/darksphere." Are we really doing this again?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Gharnef didn't kill Cornelius, Shadow Dragon says that Gra had stolen Falchion, Cain says "The traitors took from him the Divine blade Falchion" and the opening narration of Chapter 14 said that Jiol is "the man who robbed him of a father"

As for Tiki not damaging Gharnef, it's probably easiest to say that Imhullu's mindhax is potent enough to weaken High 6-Bs to the point of not dealing damage

Lightsphere and Starlight should probably just be Resistance to Mind Manipulation for the user (Is capable of attacking users of the Darksphere/Imhullu respectively, which attack the mind in order to weaken attacks to the point of dealing no damage)

Gharnef is killable by anyone who resists his mindhax

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No, and please drop the Strawman arguments. "Only killable by magic in his own universe?" No. But it requires a good power nullification hax to disable. Starlight should be treated as some form of Power Nullification which said thing does exist in other universes. Imhullu is Immortality (type 8) which can protect him from raw power attacks, but there are hax abilities that disable that. Falchion is Fire Emblem's version of The Master Sword, in which yes it has the power to repel evil, but it's not assumed the tier only applies to Evil beings. It comes from the Goddess Hylia. Same with Blade of Olympus, it's not assumed that the tier only applies to Olympian Gods, but rather it scales to Zeus and Jupiter. Falchion scales from Duma, Mila, Medeus, Naga, Grima, ect for the very same reason; plain and simple

Edit: I will look for more context in a moment, but Gotoh mentions Imhullu summoning Dark Spirits that guard the user.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Wait what is this about Type 8 Immortality and Power Null?

Wouldn't Mindhax and Resistance to Mindhax for Imhullu and Starlight respectively make more sense?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Imhullu really isn't mind hax exclusively, and the Dark Sphere granting him Immortality is why Type 8 means. Anyway, this context reveals some info on how Gharnef's Nigh-Invulnerability works.

 

[fandom_12cheeper]

Imhullu really isn't mind hax exclusively, and the Dark Sphere granting him Immortality is why Type 8 means. Anyway, this context reveals some info on how Gharnef's Nigh-Invulnerability works.

Yes,because some random villager is a more reliable source of information than a dude who knows everything there is to know about the history of the continent and how the Gemstones work.Makes perfect sense.

 

[Theglassman12]

@cheeper and said villager was right in the end.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I never heard Gotoh say Darksphere or Imhullu was limited to mind manipulation, only that mind manipulation was one of multiple abilities demonstrated. In fact, I recall Gotoh himself mentioning the exact same thing later on. And that man could have been someone taught by Gotoh; that was just one example. I'm redigging for even more context to back it up.

 

[fandom_12cheeper]

@cheeper and said villager was right in the end.

The only thing he was right about was starlight being the only weapon that can bypass Imhullu.

@Medeus Gotoh during the events of Shadow Dragon also had every interest in revealing as little about the gemstones as possible.Indeed,he actually went out of his way to withhold as much information as possible and hey,what do you know?It might as well have made him physically invincible.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Gotoh does describe Imhullu as a barrier, so assuming it's Mind manipulation and nothing else would be considered headcanon. Gotoh keeps knowledge about the gemstones secret to the public yes, but that doesn't mean he doesn't keep a secret from literally every single person. Some of his students know about them and respect Gotoh to keep it secret as well.

Anyway, Gotoh legit describes Imhullu as having a magic barrier that nullifies all enemy attacks in the Fire Emblem universe save Starlight. No one's pulling the NLF to say "Starlight is the only thing in fiction that nullifies Imhullu." But still, you cannot ignore other details rather than just assuming it's one ability demonstrated by Darksphere when other abilities and details are present.

And actually, I'm pretty open minded. I'm considerate if scans can be revealed, but Strawmans and baseless assumptions are not the proper answer to me. I'm also a nice guy, so I might as well remove that last paragraph to keep you safe. pretty sure 3 or more staff member warnings and a 3 month block was bad enough penalty, but I least see some tone down on hostility