[Fire Emblem] Tiki upgrades

[XatorNova]

Hello! This is my first CRT

My revisions are pretty minor, but I want to add a couple of details to Tiki's profile from the Fire Emblem series, based on the translations provided by this thread

First, here's a description for Tiki in All About Fire Emblem

She is the daughter of Naga, who is the king of the Divine Dragon Clan and the guardian deity of humans.She was raised by Banutu, one of the Fire Dragon Clan.
Among the dragon clan, she is a divine dragon possessing the greatest power, and although she is still only a child, when she takes on her true form the form of a divine dragon she displays power that humans cannot even come close to.

This points out that Tiki is the strongest divine dragon, which would surpass even Naga's power. This is also further supplemented in Fire Emblem Heroes, when Naga calls Tiki the Divine Dragon born with the highest strength, and Medeus supplements this by calling Tiki's power immeasurable

Naga:
It is about...Tiki, my child.

Her power is far too great.

To my knowledge, no Divine Dragon
has ever been born with such
strength as she has.

Medeus:
I have sensed a glimpse of that power
in her small form... Immeasurable...

Henceforth, Tiki should scale over Naga, and her profile should reflect this. I propose the following Attack Potency for her Divine Dragon Form key:

At least Large Island level, possibly Multi-Solar System level (Considered to be the mightiest Divine Dragon, which should put her over Naga, who declared that Tiki is the Divine Dragon born with the highest strength. More powerful than the Earth Dragon Medeus, who declared her power to be immeasurable)

Secondly, here's a description of the Magestone in The Complete

This is a dragonstone in which the will of a Mamkute whose reason was taken away by a desire for revenge against humans who were once persecuted, and who became dominated by an evil world is sealed.
It is said that the demonic dragon that transforms by using this dragonstone possesses the ability to nullify the effects of magic belonging to those who walk the righteous path, and is therefore feared.

This is also presented in gameplay, since Mage Dragons receive zero damage from magic attacks. Because of the evidence in The Complete, it is not just a gameplay mechanic.
The Magestone is not represented at all in Tiki's profile, even though other stones are available to her. Therefore, I would suggest to add the following ability under her Resistance to magic:

Invulnerability (The Magestone turns her into her Mage Dragon form, which nullifies the effects of magic)

EDIT: ALTERNATIVE PROPOSAL:

By DarkDragonMedeus's suggestion, this should rather qualify as higher resistance, so it should look like this

• Resistance to magic (Via the resistance to magic stat directly stated to exist like here), higher with the Magestone ((The Magestone turns her into her Mage Dragon form, which nullifies the effects of magic)

What do you think?

Tiki > Naga:

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus , @Franstel , @JustSomeWeirdo , @Apex_Predator_GX
Disagree: -

Magestone Invulnerability:

Agree: -
Disagree, change it to higher Resistance: @DarkDragonMedeus , @Franstel , @JustSomeWeirdo , @Apex_Predator_GX
Disagree: -

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks reasonable, except Mage Stone would NOT qualify for Invulnerability based on policies and NLF concerns, but otherwise an high resistance to magic.

 

[Franstel]

I agree with Medeus

 

[XatorNova]

Looks reasonable, except Mage Stone would NOT qualify for Invulnerability based on policies and NLF concerns, but otherwise an high resistance to magic.

So, would this fit better?

• Resistance to magic (Via the resistance to magic stat directly stated to exist like here), higher with the Magestone ((The Magestone turns her into her Mage Dragon form, which nullifies the effects of magic)

Also, what would the Magestone then require to qualify for Invulnerability to Magic?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Hypothetically speaking, it would still be a NLF assumption to assume characters many times higher than tiers would still give 0 damage; such as a High 1-B character and what not. Saying they'd take 0 damage from magic equal to or lower tiers as a standard assumption. And based on how the game treats magic, it would nullify in game tomes regardless of might stat, but things like warp/rescue staves still effect allied mage dragons, which would in turn imply outside FE specific boundaries and using vs threads, specific hax based magic such as BFR spells or teleportation spells aren't quite nullified.

• Resistance to magic (Via the resistance to magic stat directly stated to exist like here), higher with the Magestone ((The Magestone turns her into her Mage Dragon form, which nullifies the effects of magic)

This does work however, yes.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Looks good to me

 

[HoodedEnigma]

Does it make them immune to magic by resistance or does it prevent magic from being used against them, almost like sealing or maybe weakening like Fizzle in Dragon Quest if you're familiar? I recall against Medeus in FE3 you couldn't even cast the spells against him, I was wondering if worked similarly. FE11 & FE12 in gameplay didn't display some things correctly the same way as the older games like displaying the Dark Sphere as making you to take 0 damage instead of units being prevented from attacking like in the original games as in lore it's using Mind Control to stop people.

 

[XatorNova]

Hypothetically speaking, it would still be a NLF assumption to assume characters many times higher than tiers would still give 0 damage; such as a High 1-B character and what not. Saying they'd take 0 damage from magic equal to or lower tiers as a standard assumption. And based on how the game treats magic, it would nullify in game tomes regardless of might stat, but things like warp/rescue staves still effect allied mage dragons, which would in turn imply outside FE specific boundaries and using vs threads, specific hax based magic such as BFR spells or teleportation spells aren't quite nullified.

This does work however, yes.

I would have to search for footage to provide for evidence in the Super Famicom game, but manaketes generally only transform into their dragon forms during combat in the Famicom and DS games, and not while they're being healed or warped, so there's no anti-feat in the DS games. Furthermore, Silence doesn't seem to prevent mage dragons from attacking, even though their attacks are magic-based, and on the other hand, Mage Dragons are unaffected by the breath of other Mage Dragons, so they're definitely not limited to tomes.

Looks good to me

What is your take on the subject of Invulnerability vs Higher resistance to magic?

Does it make them immune to magic by resistance or does it prevent magic from being used against them, almost like sealing or maybe weakening like Fizzle in Dragon Quest if you're familiar? I recall against Medeus in FE3 you couldn't even cast the spells against him, I was wondering if worked similarly. FE11 & FE12 in gameplay didn't display some things correctly the same way as the older games like displaying the Dark Sphere as making you to take 0 damage instead of units being prevented from attacking like in the original games as in lore it's using Mind Control to stop people.

The portrayal of this is inconsistent in gameplay. The Famicom game enables Mage Dragons to seal the enemy magic, whereas the Super Famicom game and the DS games enables magic spells being thrown against the Mage Dragon. However, since The Complete points out that it nullifies the effects of magic, I would say that they don't prevent spells from being cast, unlike the Darksphere or Imhullu.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

High Resistance

 

[HoodedEnigma]

I would have to search for footage to provide for evidence in the Super Famicom game, but manaketes generally only transform into their dragon forms during combat in the Famicom and DS games, and not while they're being healed or warped, so there's no anti-feat in the DS games. Furthermore, Silence doesn't seem to prevent mage dragons from attacking, even though their attacks are magic-based, and on the other hand, Mage Dragons are unaffected by the breath of other Mage Dragons, so they're definitely not limited to tomes.

Doing Magic-Based damage isn't the same as casting spells with tomes I believe, Silence originally, functioned by making people unable to talk thus unable to chant spells it even prevented units from talking to each other and it never nulled magical items like the Levin Sword I believe so I don't think it'd apply to dragons, The magestone also didn't cause magical damage until FE11. Personally, I think using the older games to quantify the statement of the cancelling ability would make more sense. The statements is from 1996 the only game at the time that gave Magestone Magic nullifying was FE1 which depicted it more like sealing or negation.

The portrayal of this is inconsistent in gameplay. The Famicom game enables Mage Dragons to seal the enemy magic, whereas the Super Famicom game and the DS games enables magic spells being thrown against the Mage Dragon. However, since The Complete points out that it nullifies the effects of magic, I would say that they don't prevent spells from being cast, unlike the Darksphere or Imhullu.

In that case wouldn't it be Negation not Resistance or Invulnerability?

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I agree with DarkDragonMedeus too.

 

[XatorNova]

I updated the ballot. With Medeus and JustSomeWeirdo we have two staff approvals, so it's my understanding that the revision is approved, correct?

In that case wouldn't it be Negation not Resistance or Invulnerability?

Would it count as Negation if the enemy attack still lands and the nullification takes place when the attack hits the target?

Hypothetically speaking, it would still be a NLF assumption to assume characters many times higher than tiers would still give 0 damage; such as a High 1-B character and what not. Saying they'd take 0 damage from magic equal to or lower tiers as a standard assumption. And based on how the game treats magic, it would nullify in game tomes regardless of might stat, but things like warp/rescue staves still effect allied mage dragons, which would in turn imply outside FE specific boundaries and using vs threads, specific hax based magic such as BFR spells or teleportation spells aren't quite nullified.

This does work however, yes.

So, I'm settling for Higher Resistance at the moment, and I might revisit the topic if I find more evidence later down the line, but I have a question. How would the interaction with resistance-piercing spells such as Glower affect the judgment? Glower straight up ignores enemy magic resistance, and I think that Mage Dragons are also unaffected by this.

 

[HoodedEnigma]

Would it count as Negation if the enemy attack still lands and the nullification takes place when the attack hits the target?

I think so?, If it's being cancelled when it lands physically, Imagine Breaker style. I actually found footage of it from FE1, Visually it looked like it prevented you from attacking with magic, but the text says "attack was ineffective" so I believe the implication actually is that the attack was launched but was cancelled out, which would line up with the wording of "the ability to nullify the effects of magic". Labelling it as Higher Magical Resistance doesn't sit as right with me since Magical Resistance is a preexisting stat and ability in the series, Many iterations of the Magestone actually do increase a character's Magical Resistance stat which seems to be a separate trait than the nullifying. As for it not going into effect for healing and support spells I think that can be chalked up to either not effecting White Magic (Magic with no destructive properties) or people having some manner of control over what magic they do and don't resist as even the base Magical Resistance stat and ability don't hamper healing and support spells from working. Personally, I'd be on board with saying Limited Magic Nullification or Nullification and specify it only works on offensive magic. But if it's too late now, I'll discuss it again some other time.

 

[XatorNova]

bump

I think we can add the changes, can't we? We can later discuss the Magestone specifics in another thread if I find new information

 

[XatorNova]

bump again
the changes have been applied by Franstel, so this thread can be closed