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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
- Start date
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- Tags
- dc comics
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AyOgUyS
He/Him- 2,741
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Gah.
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Nope.
AyOgUyS
He/Him- 2,741
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AyOgUyS
He/Him- 2,741
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Yep.Nope.
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Superman definitely will not be getting any High-1A statistics. His plot manipulation hax is more like plot protection granted externally by the story itself. This effect has allowed Superman to resist being changed or altered by beings such as Mr Mxyzptlk and even Doctor Manhattan. This does not mean that powerful characters, for example the two aforementioned beings, are incapable of erasing Superman from existence as they absolutely can. Doctor Manhattan did make changes to Superman's story via the New 52 experiment; however, he notices how reality actively fights against his efforts. This does mean that if Superman is erased by a powerful being, eventually he will be restored in some way, shape, or form with his story intact. In reality this is not very combat applicable as it does not prevent Superman from being killed in an actual fight, though it does make him extremely difficult to permanently get rid of.
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I mean definitely he is not getting High 1-A stats with being 3 Dimensional character who walks normally in Prime 0
Unless we want to make "amped keys" against KO Darkseid, World Forger which is obviously amplifications, but Ant doesn't like temporarily amps so
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His Omega King form might also have a key, but it would be best to wait for the upcoming Absolute Crisis.
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No, because there is no logical reason for him to have such a tier and his ties with the Metaverse do not grant him this tier either.Yep.
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High 1-A base supes would be superb!
XD
XD
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The highest that Absolute Darkseid / King Omega Darkseid and King Omega Superman can scale to is Fourth Dimensional (the metaphysical realm not the geometric dimension) due to being powered by the Heart of Apokolips a Fourth Dimensional construct.
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That would make sense, but let's wait. King Omega Darkseid is implied, through not confirmed, to be a greater threat than the Darkest Knight or Perpetua, and since he's still out there, he might have other significant feats in the future.
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There really is not any indication of that at the moment especially due to the fact that he is limited by a Fourth Dimensional construct. This being said, I agree that we should wait until the event is over before making any profiles or keys. There are also LOTS of misconceptions about King Omega Darkseid and The KO event in general.
The first thing that must be addressed is the fact that there were infinite King Omega tournaments occurring across the entire multiverse as seen at the end of DC KO #5. As such the version of King Omega Darkseid that Superman fought (and that infinite other beings fought on their own earths throughout the multiverse) is emanation enhanced by the King Omega power up and not Darkseid in his entirety. This was only the tournament for Prime Earth.
Second of all I have seen people stating without any logic that the Big Bang referred to in DC KO #5 is the Big Bang for the entire Divine Continuum which is totally unfounded. It is clear that this Big Bang is the Big Bang of Prime Earth. As mentioned previously, there were infinite King Omega tournaments, we ONLY saw events that correlated with Prime Earth nothing more.
Thirdly, lots of people have been saying that Alpha Energy is more fundamental than Anti-Crisis Energy and Omega Energy is more fundamental than Crisis Energy. Additionally, such as on the DC wiki, it is said that Alpha and Omega energy are Fundamental Forces of the Greater Omniverse. For both of these claims there is ZERO evidence at all. Luckily both of these misconceptions can be cleared up from just one comic book page in DC KO #1. Alpha and Omega Energies are both explicitly stated to be energies of the UNIVERSE, not the Local Omniverse (The Divine Continuum), and definitely not of the Greater Omniverse. This does not mean that Alpha and Omega energies are not powerful or important, on the contrary, they are described as “Our universe is full of mysterious energies but since its inception, its two most primal are the twin energies called Alpha and Omega.” - DC KO #1. Crisis (Justice and Harmony) and Anti-Crisis (Villainy and Doom) Energies are used by the Hands themselves to make Creations as Perpetua did with the Divine Continuum, where as Alpha and Omega energies are produced by the universes of these Creations AFTER they are brought into existence by the Hands. Additionally, Omega Energy is produced by the Heart of Apokolips which is a Fourth Dimensional Intelligent Construct as such the energy cannot possibly be more fundamental than Crisis and Anti-Crisis energy. Alpha energy has always been the power of High Father in the same way that Omega energy has always been the power of Darkseid. If either of these energies were truly greater than the energies of the Greater Omniverse itself, either Darkseid would have won a long time ago or High Father would have crushed Darkseid.
Fourthly, and extremely damning, is the fact that Absolute Darkseid still respect the power of Anti-Life as seen in the last 2 panels of DC KO #5. He states that his absolute control over the infinite worlds will be Anti-Life. This makes sense and is consistent as he has always had access to Omega energy and has always strove to obtain the Anti-Life Equation which he views as the ultimate weapon. Omega Energy at is peak is "merely" Fourth Dimensional due to being supplied by the Fourth Dimensional Heart of Apokolips while Anti-Life is incomparably superior being Sixth Dimensional in its full capacity. Anti-Life in its full capacity is a power belonging to the Anti-Monitor and is integral to his being and character. When Perpetua gave him back the equation he is easily able to dominate his brothers and take control over their enhanced fusion the Ultra Monitor. Perpetua states "I gift you back your Anti-Life".
There are 6 more points to be made but this is enough for now. Overall it is clear that people did not understand what was going on in the DC KO event and are trying to wank Superman and Darkseid to unreasonable levels by making erroneous speculations.
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Um, you do know we were joking, right?
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I was aware that you were joking; however, there are people that actual think he should have or simply just want Superman to have High-1A statistics when that is obviously not possible. My comment was towards those people.Yall I was joking
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Actually i discussed it with someone about "Plot weird protection" of Superman, which kinda explained why Superman can counter Dr Manhattan and MR Mxy level characters via hax. I would show you scans and ask your opinion about it when i am free tmrw
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Im not saying superman get High1-A. With this hax, we can solve many superman feats end up being considered outlier such as punching world forger in sixth dimension. I don't ask staff to upgrade superman tier in the CRT. The idea of both writer may be crazy since both writer also thinks the characters are real.
Since the idea of writer caused Story of Superman to be able to rewrite the narrative in book of infinite pages. This qualified for one of many possible uses of plot manipulation isnt it?
I think limited plot manipulation is fine
How should we handle it now
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It's like supranatural luck or fate manipulation, but on a narrative level. Where the Story of Superman creates a narrative for him to win because the Story of Superman itself was created to be indestructible. Other thing story of Superman can do is restored him by a rebooted stories so he cant be permanently destroyed.
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Yeah that is fine. That was what people were already agreeing with in the first place.
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I think i should make a new CRT to revise the wording for the Story of Superman plot manipulation in Superman’s profile, and also add that ability to the Thought Robot
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While this would makes sense, it might be best to wait a little before assuming anything else as we all agreed. Regarding Darkseid's use of an emanation of himself during the KO tournament, I don't know because the All-In Special specified that Darkseid did not have doubles across the Multiverse and all his energies had been gathered into him since Earth-0 was cut off from it. We'll know more in time.
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Agreed. I don't think that Absolute crisis is coming out for another year or so and it is likely that a lot of things will be added and explained between now and whenever it is published through stuff in the currently ongoing comic runs.
I was just pointing out that, at the moment, Absolute Darkseid is mostly hype rather than actual feats and statements and that many people have been misstating/overstating certain things to make him see more impressive than he actually is. As for the stuff with the no alternate versions, as I pointed out in my comment, there were infinite separate King Omega tournaments all occurring across the multiverse at the same time. So King Omega Superman on Prime Earth only fought one of infinite Darkseid emanations. Of course each emanation of Darkseid is incredibly powerful due to the King Omega Amplification granted by the Heart of Apokolips, but this was not the True Entirety of Darkseid.
As for the Narrative side of things, tying together previous lore: I wonder what is going on with Pandora as she is shown for some reason at the end of DC KO #5. Perhaps it is a call back to Flashpoint #5 when Barry says "I see three timelines. why?" she says: "Because the history of heroes was shattered into three long ago. Splintered to weaken your world for their impending arrival. You must all stand together. The timelines must become one again. You can help me fix that, Barry Allen, but at a cost." This was never resolved as to who or what tis being referenced here. Some people may think this is a reference to Doctor Manhattan, but that was not decided at this point, that was a number of years after this and was not the original intention of the authors. Additionally it refers to a plural group not an individual, it would make sense if perhaps it was referring to the Gentry which were built up as an all encompassing metaphysical threat later in the New 52 in The Multiversity. However, the Gentry and Empty Hand were abandoned after Multiversity never to be used again only to be ruined in Infinite Frontier and Dark crisis on Infinite Earths. Interestingly enough, and overlooked by most people, in The Multiversity Guidebook it is literally stated that The Empty Hand caused the Flashpoint being shown as the Hand of Creation "And The Flash -- Always there at the electric heart of every momentous transformation. And always behind it all ... ... Something vast and patient and terrible. What Great Hand casts the Lightning ... ... And remakes the World?" showing a empty hand holding the Orrery of Worlds in the background of this text. Another interesting thing, later in The Multiversity Guidebook, the Empty Hand manifests as the Flaming Hand of The Source hinting at the true nature and significance of the villain as intended by Grant Morrison. He mocks The Source itself and the observing New Gods by taking on the appearance of their Supreme God. Unfortunately this too went nowhere and The Empty Hand was instead retconned into being an uninteresting character. Back to Pandora and her statement, perhaps this statement was retconned to be referring to Darkseid. This would make some degree of sense as also during DC KO #5, Barry Allen is shown writing "The New History of the DC Universe" which was published in real life at the end of 2025. While he is writing it, a mysterious "Book Zero" appears in his draft that he did not write, instead Pandora wrote it (though Barry does not know this) writing in it "You forgot my real story. You left me behind. I did the right thing and all of you took my world from me ..." likely in reference to the Post Flashpoint world that was merged and reverted to fit the Post-Crisis reality. Barry did not publish this Book Zero in the final version as he had back up copies so he still had what he originally intended to publish so we never got to see what Pandora wrote in the actual release of The New History of the DC Universe published last year. How all of this stuff will be addressed in the future and if it will be resolved at all is anyone's guess.
A second interesting lore point that was likely forgotten by the writers at DC: Darkseid during the Infinite Frontier took control of Earth-Omega. This is one of the two elusive worlds along with the Elseworld that became the center of the multiverse replacing Prime Earth after the end of Death Metal when reality was remade. Where it gets interesting is the Elseworld, referred to as the Alpha World in its first appearance in Dark Nights: Death Metal Vol1 #7, becomes the Absolute Universe after the events of the DC All In Saga. This means that, if the writers at DC still remember, Darkseid controls both the Alpha and Omega worlds. How and if this will play into the coming Absolute Crisis is unclear though it certainly should be a plot point because it is certainly meaningful and would make sense for it at the very least to be mentioned. It would seem that DC has been building up towards something big with Darkseid for many years now, ever since Multiversity where he was unleashed to rebuild his Godhead after his destruction at the end of The Final Crisis, and that he has been slowly making moves in the background. Given that it has been years since the Omega World last appeared or was mentioned, it would seem that it was forgotten about. It is strange that the Alpha World was turned into the Absolute Universe in order to produce infinite Omega Energy instead of the Omega World. Perhaps the Alpha World originally produced Alpha Energy as its name would imply but Darkseid saw it as the ultimate prize to corrupt and made it produce Omega Energy instead.
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Sorry interupting. Hello staff, i need an input here
www.vsbattles.com
Superman's Plot Manipulation Revision DC Comic
Plot Manipulation Superman Revision Superman is already accepted to have plot manipulation here : https://www.vsbattles.com/threads/plot-manipulation-for-superboy-prime-dc-comics.191207/ But the wording in Superman's profile need to be revised because it can be misunderstood as Immortality...
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So, just noticed this Batman page isn't linked to the Batman NavBox
Where should he go? Movies or Shows?
Where should he go? Movies or Shows?
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Here are my in progress drafts for the revised pages for Superboy Prime, Perpetua, Doctor Manhattan, and The Batman Who Laughs / The Darkest Knight.
The profile for Superboy Prime is the biggest change. The content on him gathered by Confluctor for his profile on All Fiction Battles Wiki (https://all-fiction-battles.fandom.com/wiki/Superboy-Prime) was very useful for filling out the powers and abilities section which is otherwise extremely tedious as well as fleshing out his summary section. Though there were a fair number of things that were incorrectly stated in his profile that needed to be fixed, it was otherwise an invaluable resource. Additionally, I have added all of the stuff Elizio33 and I have discussed previously on this discussion thread. There is still a lot of work to be done polishing it up.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PromptedElephant641/Revised_Superboy_Prime_Profile
The following profiles for Perpetua, Doctor Manhattan, and The Batman Who Laughs / The Darkest Knight were not as compressive of a revision as was needed for Superboy Prime as they are mostly filled out as is. Mainly a new key was added for Perpetua as well as her existing keys being updated and stuff for Doctor Manhattan was fixed. The Batman Who Laughs / The Darkest Knight needed further clarifications added as well as a lot of notes to explainthe unimaginable BS associated with the character the many inconsistencies and strange details that surround the character. For all of them, especially TDK, a few notes have been added. I still need to add a good number of scans for these characters as I was focused on Superboy Prime. Additionally, most of the scans already on Doctor Manhattan's page and a good number of them on TDK's were never cited so that will have to be updated as well.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PromptedElephant641/Revised_Perpetua_Profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PromptedElephant641/Revised_Doctor_Manhattan_Profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PromptedElephant641/Revised_TBWL_/_TDK_Profile
The profile for Superboy Prime is the biggest change. The content on him gathered by Confluctor for his profile on All Fiction Battles Wiki (https://all-fiction-battles.fandom.com/wiki/Superboy-Prime) was very useful for filling out the powers and abilities section which is otherwise extremely tedious as well as fleshing out his summary section. Though there were a fair number of things that were incorrectly stated in his profile that needed to be fixed, it was otherwise an invaluable resource. Additionally, I have added all of the stuff Elizio33 and I have discussed previously on this discussion thread. There is still a lot of work to be done polishing it up.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PromptedElephant641/Revised_Superboy_Prime_Profile
The following profiles for Perpetua, Doctor Manhattan, and The Batman Who Laughs / The Darkest Knight were not as compressive of a revision as was needed for Superboy Prime as they are mostly filled out as is. Mainly a new key was added for Perpetua as well as her existing keys being updated and stuff for Doctor Manhattan was fixed. The Batman Who Laughs / The Darkest Knight needed further clarifications added as well as a lot of notes to explain
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PromptedElephant641/Revised_Perpetua_Profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PromptedElephant641/Revised_Doctor_Manhattan_Profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PromptedElephant641/Revised_TBWL_/_TDK_Profile
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looks good, cant wait for prime get H1A !!!!
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Hmm, the proposed justifications seem far too dense and there are points on which I disagree, but we have already addressed most of them in this thread. Anyway, I guess we can reopen the debate in your upcoming crt.
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Superboy Prime should have fourth wall ability. He is aware of stories being rebooted, powerscaler, and can leap across different comics, including Dark Nights: Death Metal Secret Origin. Like SilkMan, who postponed the death of the Endless by going outside the universe, Prime more impressive for traveling through the comics itself, i think it could grant him immortality. this is Crossover comic ofc, but its still the comic made by DC (DC/Marvel : Superman & Spiderman) not by Marvel (Marvel/DC : Spiderman & Superman) and prime mention about crossover in canon comic.
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Any major points of contention?
At the moment I have just tossed in everything as such there definitely needs to be some trimming and consolidation. I still need to work through a lot of the content that I got from Confluctor's page as some of that content is weirdly worded and using all of it is unnecessary and repetitive.
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I agree, some of the wording can be shortened to look better. Also instead of saying "high 1-A, high 1-A with rage" you can simply say "even/far higher" with rage.
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Yes. Extreme fourth wall awareness is perfectly fine for him.
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Did you get permission from Confluctor to use his work? Because you copypasted the summary (almost all of it), the P&A (90% of it is copied), stamina, range, and weakness sections.
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To be FAIR, all content on every single Wiki is CC BY-SA, so all that's really needed is proper crediting (usually in the page's notes section or the edit summary).
Probably still preferable to ask him.
Probably still preferable to ask him.
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I removed all of the stuff pertaining to Confluctor's profile.
I apologize for using his content without contacting him before hand.
I apologize for using his content without contacting him before hand.
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Kryptonian Physiology is still missing the Sonic Scream all Kryptonians seem able to do.
