Gen Rex: Rex salazar upgrade and ability addition

[Hellformer]

Introduction​

Coming straight to the point, the purpose of this thread is to upgrade Rex salazar to Low 1-C and grant him CM type 1 ability.

What is the fabric of existence/space-time/universe?​

• As per Professor Paradox, he had initially designed a sub-atomic drill to bore a tunnel in the fabric of space-time. After the failure of his experiment, he was sucked into the tunnel, where he got his powers, and after that he had spent a dozen life times criss-crossing the timestream and making it a better place.
• When Ben pushed one of Maltruant's timebeast while moving in the timestream, skurd said that Ben tore in the fabric of existence and now they're lost in time.
• Conclusion: Timestream = Fabric of existence

Dominion code scaling and CM type 1​

Scaling​

The meta nanites are described as being so powerful that it's user can rip apart the fabric of the universe and also control it. Which means that the attack potency of the user should be same as the timestream which is Low 1-C.

Conceptual Manipulation​

The master control nanite or simply the dominion code, not only allows its user to destroy the fabric of the universe, but also enables the user to manipulate energy, gravity, space, elemental, mechanical and everything that would make the universe run.
As per the CM page:

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level.

As we have already established that the user can manipulate the fundamental principles of the universe, this should be blatant enough to grant CM. And Since there are no implications of it getting destroyed with the fabric of the universe, it should be type 1 in nature (talked to a staff regarding such a concept being type 1 in nature).
Conclusion: The dominion code is a type 1 concept of energy, gravity, space, etc and Rex in his god mode has CM1.

Agree:
Disagree: @Firestorm808 (Scaling and CM type 1)
Neutral: @Firestorm808 (CM type 2)

​

 

[Adr10K]

Agree.
And btw, literally you

 

[Hellformer]

Agree.
And btw, literally you

Wdym by literally you?
Edit: Nvm, didn't see the meme.
Haha true btw

 

[Lort15]

Looks good. Agreed

 

[Firestorm808]

I don't see any concrete justifications for the Meta Nanites being more than Low 2-C.

The show does not suggest that the scientists designed the Meta Nanites with higher dimensions in mind, beyond the confines of their universe (timeline).

I also do not see Conceptual Manipulation, as the conceptual definitions of those alleged concepts aren't changed.

 

[Hellformer]

I don't see any concrete justifications for the Meta Nanites being more than Low 2-C.

The show does not suggest that the scientists designed the Meta Nanites with higher dimensions in mind, beyond the confines of their universe (timeline).

That ignores the fact what the cosmology as a whole defines the fabric of the verse as. If it were the control the universe specifically, the term fabric wouldn't have been used twice.

I also do not see Conceptual Manipulation, as the conceptual definitions of those alleged concepts aren't changed.

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level.
What's the problem with this?

 

[Firestorm808]

That ignores the fact what the cosmology as a whole defines the fabric of the verse as. If it were the control the universe specifically, the term fabric wouldn't have been used twice.

The use of the word "fabric" isn't enough to determine that the Meta Nanite's effects extend beyond their timeline.

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level.
What's the problem with this?

Let's go over the supposed concepts. We have the following:

• mechanics and technology
• natural elements
• gravity
• space and time
• matter, energy, and anti-matter

Do we have an example of how the abstract concepts themselves are manipulated?

Not just general technology manip, energy manip, etc.

IE: The very definitions of the concepts are changed. Like a circle now has the definition of a square, and now all circles are squares. Gravity is no longer the force between physical masses.

 

[Hellformer]

The use of the word "fabric" isn't enough to determine that the Meta Nanite's effects extend beyond their timeline.

Why is that? If a certain verse establishes a terminology and continues it later on, then what's the problem in using it? (Like it's established in AF, then used in GenRex, after that again in OV) Every verse has their own naming convention.

Let's go over the supposed concepts. We have the following:

• mechanics and technology
• natural elements
• gravity
• space and time
• matter, energy, and anti-matter

Do we have an example of how the abstract concepts themselves are manipulated?

Not just general technology manip, energy manip, etc.

IE: The very definitions of the concepts are changed. Like a circle now has the definition of a square, and now all circles are squares. Gravity is no longer the force between physical masses.

Ahh okay, I'll prove that.

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it. This power has a variety of uses, ranging from a high degree of control over the abstraction and its manifestations, the aforementioned immortality, or even being unaffected by abilities that can't target the abstraction.

White Knight: In Layman's terms, it's the God code. Each of these meta nanites, have a cipher written inside which gives them jurisdiction over different building blocks of the universe. Matter, anti matter, gravity, magnetism. With the complete code you can control them and through them, you control everything

So each meta nanites has information (which is abstract as per our site) written inside, and manipulation of those abstract concepts of space, time, etc (different for each meta nanite), one can alter different fundamental forces of the universe (which is CM as per our site).

 

[Firestorm808]

Why is that? If a certain verse establishes a terminology and continues it later on, then what's the problem in using it? (Like it's established in AF, then used in GenRex, after that again in OV) Every verse has their own naming convention.

You are trying to connect the use of a word by one character to another character who's in a different plane of reality, without having the same scope and context behind each use of the word.

 

[Firestorm808]

So each meta nanites has information (which is abstract as per our site) written inside, and manipulation of those abstract concepts of space, time, etc (different for each nanite), one can alter different fundamental forces of the universe (which is CM as per our site).

That's not an example of manipulating an abstract concept.

 

[Hellformer]

You are trying to connect the use of a word by one character to another character who's in a different plane of reality, without having the same scope and context behind each use of the word.

If that's the case then skurd wouldn't have known what the fabric of the verse is.

 

[Hellformer]

That's not an example of manipulating an abstract concept.

Isn't information abstract?

 

[Firestorm808]

If that's the case then skurd wouldn't have known what the fabric of the verse is.

The context of Skurd using "fabric of reality" is when he's literally looking at the metaphysical wall/fabric of the timestream.

The scientists in Generator Rex don't have that same context.

 

[Firestorm808]

Isn't information abstract?

Information Manipulation and Concept Manipulation are two different things.

 

[Hellformer]

The context of Skurd using "fabric of reality" is when he's literally looking at the metaphysical wall/fabric of the timestream.

The scientists in Generator Rex don't have that same context.

But then why would skurd specifically use the word "fabric"? The authors are same so their intent would matter via usage of the terminology they establish.

Information Manipulation and Concept Manipulation are two different things.

Yeah Ik but manipulating fundamental forces is what makes this CM (as per our site).
Thanos from MCU has CM2 for similar reasoning:
Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; The Infinity Stones are the remnants of six Singularities that existed long before the current universe, each capable of manipulating and controlling the fundamental, essential and primordial aspects of space, reality, power, soul, mind and time in existence)

 

[Firestorm808]

But then why would skurd specifically use the word "fabric"? The authors are same so their intent would matter via usage of the terminology they establish.

I do not consider that a reasonable justification to interpret the meaning behind the use of "fabric" in one show to another.

Feel free to ask other staff about the matter.

Yeah Ik but manipulating fundamental forces is what makes this CM (as per our site).
Thanos from MCU has CM2 for similar reasoning:
Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; The Infinity Stones are the remnants of six Singularities that existed long before the current universe, each capable of manipulating and controlling the fundamental, essential and primordial aspects of space, reality, power, soul, mind and time in existence)

I don't know the original discussion for this CMT2, and the broken link doesn't help clarify the source context behind the justification.

Feel free to ask other staff about the matter.

For Meta Nanites having CM T1, I lean against.

For Meta Nanites having CM T2, I am unsure.

 

[Hellformer]

I do not consider that a reasonable justification to interpret the meaning behind the use of "fabric" in one show to another.

Feel free to ask other staff about the matter.

My point is the authors being same, but alright.

I don't know the original discussion for this CMT2, and the broken link doesn't help clarify the source context behind the justification.

Feel free to ask other staff about the matter.

For Meta Nanites having CM T1, I lean against.

For Meta Nanites having CM T2, I am unsure.

Here

 

[Firestorm808]

Here

Wong: [Using magic to show the universe and five out of six Infinity Stones] From the dawn of the universe, there was nothing. Then, boom! The Big Bang sent six elemental crystals, hurdling across the virgin universe. These Infinity Stones each control an essential aspect of existence.

Doctor Strange: Space. Reality. Power. Soul. Mind. And Time.

I would not consider this statement a justification for CM Type 2.

Feel free to ask other staff about the matter.

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

Agree

 

[ByArrow]

Agree for scalling

 

[Hellformer]

I would not consider this statement a justification for CM Type 2.

Feel free to ask other staff about the matter.

[MCU] Infinity Stones Addition

The Infinity Stones have the following statements: Before creation itself, six Singularities existed. When the universe exploded into existence, the Singularities' remnants were forged into concentrated ingots capable of manipulating the fundamental aspects of the new reality. At the dawn of...

vsbattles.com

Btw here's the CRT for infinity stones getting CM. Multiple staffs agreed with it.

 

[Firestorm808]

[MCU] Infinity Stones Addition

The Infinity Stones have the following statements: Before creation itself, six Singularities existed. When the universe exploded into existence, the Singularities' remnants were forged into concentrated ingots capable of manipulating the fundamental aspects of the new reality. At the dawn of...

vsbattles.com

Btw here's the CRT for infinity stones having CM. Multiple staffs agreed with it.

They get type 2 because their destruction would destroy the universe.

 

[Hellformer]

They get type 2 because their destruction would destroy the universe.

I'm not concerned about the type as of now, my point is the infinity stones having CM for similar reasons.

 

[Firestorm808]

From what's been presented about the Meta Nanites so far, I still disagree with Concept Manipulation Type 1. Type 2, I am unsure.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I’m not sure about Low 1-C as I feel there’s a difference between the fabric of space-time/existence and just the fabric of the universe (do the inhabitants of Rex’s dimension even know about branching timelines, the timestream, or the like? Still haven’t gotten around to watching Generator Rex). Maybe it’s possible to scale them to something else like the other parallel worlds of the prime timeline (as they are aware of those), but again I haven’t watched the show so I don’t know the full context.

Not gonna speak on CM.

 

[Hellformer]

I’m not sure about Low 1-C as I feel there’s a difference between the fabric of space-time/existence and just the fabric of the universe (do the inhabitants of Rex’s dimension even know about branching timelines, the timestream, or the like? Still haven’t gotten around to watching Generator Rex). Maybe it’s possible to scale them to something else like the other parallel worlds of the prime timeline (as they are aware of those), but again I haven’t watched the show so I don’t know the full context.

Not gonna speak on CM.

Actually the timestream is all of space time within the Anlg Universe and destroying it wipes out time as well as causality itself. So if fabric of the universe often means the structural basis of it like space, time, causality, etc, then the most plausible conclusion would be the fabric being timestream.

 

[Quang230]

A question outside but since Upgrade can mimic technology he merge does this mean now he have all Rex ability at the time they merge

Ben 10 Wiki

Ben 10 Planet is the ultimate Ben 10 resource where anyone can edit and learn about the vast universe of Ben 10!

ben10.fandom.com

 

[Lort15]

A question outside but since Upgrade can mimic technology he merge does this mean now he have all Rex ability at the time they merge

Ben 10 Wiki

Ben 10 Planet is the ultimate Ben 10 resource where anyone can edit and learn about the vast universe of Ben 10!

ben10.fandom.com

He is made of nanites already so yeah

 

[Adr10K]

A question outside but since Upgrade can mimic technology he merge does this mean now he have all Rex ability at the time they merge

Ben 10 Wiki

Ben 10 Planet is the ultimate Ben 10 resource where anyone can edit and learn about the vast universe of Ben 10!

ben10.fandom.com

We haven't seen Ben use that ability

 

[FinePoint]

Disagree with the scaling. Tearing the fabric of something isn't enough to conclude they scale to the entirety of that thing, especially if that thing is more generally spatial in nature and the question of hax being involved comes into play.

As for Conceptual Manipulation, the scan doesn't seem to match the text. When do they actually say he controls all those things?
But even as written, I'm not sure it's Conceptual Manipulation or just large scale manipulation of those individual things.

 

[Hellformer]

As for Conceptual Manipulation, the scan doesn't seem to match the text. When do they actually say he controls all those things?
But even as written, I'm not sure it's Conceptual Manipulation or just large scale manipulation of those individual things.

Here

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

If this is accepted, Way Big Low 1-C, bro. Because one of the writers said Way Big would beat Rex

 

[Lort15]

If this is accepted, Way Big Low 1-C, bro. Because one of the writers said Way Big would beat Rex

rel

 

[Adr10K]

If this is accepted, Way Big Low 1-C, bro. Because one of the writers said Way Big would beat Rex

Huh? Where was that said? And funny, he'd be L2C even if it isn't accepted.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Huh? Where was that said? And funny, he'd be L2C even if it isn't accepted.

I wrote it as a joke. Otherwise, I wouldn't say Way Big>Rex because of such a statement.

 

[FinePoint]

Here

I see.

Well, I still don't see proof it's conceptual instead of just powerful manipulation of those particular things.

 

[Hellformer]

I see.

Well, I still don't see proof it's conceptual instead of just powerful manipulation of those particular things.

• Changing of dominion code (information) => Changing of specific aspects (space, matter, etc)
• Information => abstract
• Reason for it being CM: Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level.

 

[Hellformer]

Bump

 

[FinePoint]

Changing of dominion code (information) => Changing of specific aspects (space, matter, etc)
Information => abstract
Reason for it being CM: Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level.

Well, we have a separate power for Information Manipulation, would that not be this?

 

[Hellformer]

Bum

Well, we have a separate power for Information Manipulation, would that not be this?

It would've been if the CM page didn't have this:
Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly. However, through this power, one can change the universe's fundamental principles on the highest level.

Also the infinity stones have CM for similar reasons instead of having wide scale Manipulation of those said things.