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Garou vs Baki Hanma (3-0-0)
- Thread starter Phoenks
- Start date
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The scaling chain is super long. current garou > Spiral Garou =~ Darkshine 100% > casual Darkshine (enough to pulverize) >> transformed Bug God > Base bug god (enough to no sell Royal Ripper's attacks, which could still harm a stronger Garou) >> 1.22 megaton Garou.
If we said each < was a 1.25X increase, then Garou should be 5.8 megatons and therefore comparable to base Baki. And that's a super conservative estimate. Not sure if such scaling is allowed, even if it makes sense.
If we said each < was a 1.25X increase, then Garou should be 5.8 megatons and therefore comparable to base Baki. And that's a super conservative estimate. Not sure if such scaling is allowed, even if it makes sense.
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As of now, Garou fra
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If we say AP is comparable, then Garou takes it. Baki has a few advantages that Garou can't copy, but most of his advantages will be copied after a couple uses. One of those advantages, demon back, is something Baki would hesitate to use due to his personality (maybe, Garou is an evil-looking monster at this point). Garou however has type 2 immortality, quick low-mid regen, massively superior reactive evolution that comes with a constant statistics amp, seemingly random resistance development and a high chance of turning into an above dragon beast with the monster calamity god slayer fist in tow.
Baki certainly would be a tough fight even with comparable AP, but Garou has innovative and evolutionary edges on Baki with how he grows and how he synthesizes techniques on the fly. Consider how Garou when from being a savage WSRSF user to the monster god calamity slayer fist in... 2-3 days? He combined like 16 martial arts or whatever into a master technique in what would normally take a god-tier a very long training arc but only took him a few days. Unless Baki can incap, then tear Garou to pieces or use demon back at the right time, Garou should win after an awesome exchange.
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I guess message them?Vote counted, though I wish more Baki supporters would show up(
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Yall I love these take but rn the match needs to be put on hold lol
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Don’t have a vote currently, but it’s worth noting that these are the win conditions as I understand them:
Garou) His regen keeps him fighting, his RE guarantees his win as the fight goes on, and his higher LS stop a pin/restrain
Baki) Baki could very easily win the first couple of moves, which is his only chance. Baki has tons of moves he can use to blitze people comparable to himself in speed like the Kiai/Hand Pocket (the technique allows his strike to achieve maximum acceleration from the start), the Cockroach Tackle Jab combo (another 0 acceleration move combined with the fastest strike in modern combat), and the 0.5 Seconds Unconscious (a move that allows his brain to bypass a phase in which a brain needs to process things you perceive, allowing Baki to intercept an attack after someone has decided to use it, but before they can actually do it). Even more so, within his last 3 fights, the only fights this key has, he’s started with the CTJ combo and uses 0.5 if necessary. The key to why any of this is important lies in the fact that Baki has the precision to KO Pickle, a caveman that has a physiology that prevents concussions and a caveman that is physically strong enough to completely dominate Baki, by tapping him on the chin. With that level of precision, Baki would only need one successful hit to KO Garou.
TL;DR - Baki most likely wins early, or dies horribly later on. I don’t have a vote yet
Garou) His regen keeps him fighting, his RE guarantees his win as the fight goes on, and his higher LS stop a pin/restrain
Baki) Baki could very easily win the first couple of moves, which is his only chance. Baki has tons of moves he can use to blitze people comparable to himself in speed like the Kiai/Hand Pocket (the technique allows his strike to achieve maximum acceleration from the start), the Cockroach Tackle Jab combo (another 0 acceleration move combined with the fastest strike in modern combat), and the 0.5 Seconds Unconscious (a move that allows his brain to bypass a phase in which a brain needs to process things you perceive, allowing Baki to intercept an attack after someone has decided to use it, but before they can actually do it). Even more so, within his last 3 fights, the only fights this key has, he’s started with the CTJ combo and uses 0.5 if necessary. The key to why any of this is important lies in the fact that Baki has the precision to KO Pickle, a caveman that has a physiology that prevents concussions and a caveman that is physically strong enough to completely dominate Baki, by tapping him on the chin. With that level of precision, Baki would only need one successful hit to KO Garou.
TL;DR - Baki most likely wins early, or dies horribly later on. I don’t have a vote yet
Lugh_Tuathe_Dé
He/Him- 3,706
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I'm gonna go to garou FRA
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IR would be good to counter 0.5, but Garou would still get dropped if CTJ or Hand Pocket connect because they blitz him even with equalized speed via having 0 acceleration
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So it all depends on which Baki to use first.
Well, if I don't hear any arguments in favor of Baki, I'll vote for Garou, I see him winning more times than Baki
Well, if I don't hear any arguments in favor of Baki, I'll vote for Garou, I see him winning more times than Baki
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gaoru fra
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I really, really like this match. I'll comment on it soon, but I must say that copying martial arts isn't the be-all end-all of skill. In fact, both Baki and Yujiro do learn moves and styles just by glancing and improving upon them pretty much instantly, and they learn from them and all... But they don't really try to spam copied techniques or to use other styles. In fact, they only do so occasionally (As in, a possible option to tackle a situation), to test the enemy or to annoy them, usually Baki prefers to stick to what Yujiro calls "absolute violence"; using basic biomechanics and whatever is the most apt move at the moment, trusting on his fighting skill. Skill encompasses much more than just copying abilities and martial arts.
Personally, I find Baki more skilled. Not by much, though. In any case, I'll comment soon - at a first glance, I expect a win from Garou, although an extremely high difficulty one.
A shame though, as this match may be null if some possible Baki revisions go through.
Personally, I find Baki more skilled. Not by much, though. In any case, I'll comment soon - at a first glance, I expect a win from Garou, although an extremely high difficulty one.
A shame though, as this match may be null if some possible Baki revisions go through.
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Well, we can always restart the match once the revision is done
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garou fra
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Y’all the reason your vote of for Garou doesn’t really work Considering that the Fight has it go for a longer for Garou you really do big stuff, compared to Baki who just ends fight quickly. The votes got Garou need to be reset
Also going Incon was this fight depends on if Baki ends the fight quickly or Garou prolongs the fighting
Also going Incon was this fight depends on if Baki ends the fight quickly or Garou prolongs the fighting
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And he can’t end it quickly.
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Unless he starts with those, I don’t see how it’ll affect them. Coupled with Garou’s precog + IR, I cannot see it getting to him effectively.
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Baki fought people with IR and Percog before that are superior to Garous. Besides his RE Garou bring nothing new to the table for Baki. And again Baki has multiple speed and stats amps attacks with 0.5 SU to always get his attacks in first and the fact he can KO Garou when ever it can effect them.
People who are voting for Garou realize that the fight has to go on for longer for his win cons to take effect. And as stated above Baki has the majority of advantage, however with Garou RE + Type 2 Immorality the match depends on if can Garou last long enough or Baki ends the fight quickly. And nobody had given me a convincing answer to why Garou can outlast to win more often.
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Like?
Such as? Has anyone possesses RE like that?
Stat amps get dealt with WSRSF. 0.5 SU doesn’t matter since Garou can fight in his sleep. Garou also gets faster and stronger so, not really a good point. And that is incredibly fast, as he evolved after getting his ribs destroyed.
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Musashi and basically anyone from the main cast as they all have IR lol
Baki has majority of the advantages in this fight, if you mean to list them I can if you want me to specify. But yeah majority of Garou kit is nothing really that new or is going to surprise Baki except for Garou really fantastic RE.
No? If your saying that all of Baki stats amps get dealt with WSRSF that’s just wrong, but your forgetting Baki and copy techniques as well and can use it with his stat amps. Also no? Just because you can fight in your sleep doesn’t man the effect just get negated like that lol. Again yeah I know Garou has good RE, however it’s already been deemed that Baki has majority of advantages at the start of this fight and it’s in character for him to end fights quickly. Not fast enough for Baki to Incap him.
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Not only can baki as well but way better too lol
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What exactly will Baki open with? Just copying isn't an advantage for either side, since both sides can copy and use the techniques after it's used on them once or twice. We need to talk about their uncopieable advantages. Garou has "type 2 immortality, quick low-mid regen, massively superior reactive evolution that comes with a constant statistics amp, seemingly random resistance development and a high chance of turning into an above dragon beast with the monster calamity god slayer fist in tow"
None of those are immediate win-conditions, but his habit of developing random resistances mid-fight and his super-quick regen are things that Baki hasn't ever really seen before. You can't compare Garou's mid-low regen with Biscuit Oliva's mid-low regen because it took him hours to get those scars healed up, whereas Garou's regen works at combat speeds at this point and is only likely to get faster as he uses it more and more (compare how Garou took a couple minutes to regen the hole in his torso during the Orochi fight but he regenerated his broken shoulders mid-flight when Darkshine sent him back).
Baki needs to tear Garou to pieces, taking off limbs or putting a hole through him won't get the job done. And Baki especially can't stop and think Garou is dead if he lays a beat-down on him that would kill someone normal (like breaking their neck or caving their torso in), because Garou will probably be limp for a moment and get back up multiple times stronger like he did against Darkshine- or perhaps straight up Above Dragon and unquantifiably stronger.
None of those are immediate win-conditions, but his habit of developing random resistances mid-fight and his super-quick regen are things that Baki hasn't ever really seen before. You can't compare Garou's mid-low regen with Biscuit Oliva's mid-low regen because it took him hours to get those scars healed up, whereas Garou's regen works at combat speeds at this point and is only likely to get faster as he uses it more and more (compare how Garou took a couple minutes to regen the hole in his torso during the Orochi fight but he regenerated his broken shoulders mid-flight when Darkshine sent him back).
Baki needs to tear Garou to pieces, taking off limbs or putting a hole through him won't get the job done. And Baki especially can't stop and think Garou is dead if he lays a beat-down on him that would kill someone normal (like breaking their neck or caving their torso in), because Garou will probably be limp for a moment and get back up multiple times stronger like he did against Darkshine- or perhaps straight up Above Dragon and unquantifiably stronger.
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could we have some feats of what Baki's copied, the conditions he was in or the complexity of the technique?
Garou managed to copy Bomb's fighting style without, correct me if I'm wrong, getting a proper glance at it. He throughout the time he could have attained it had just come from a fight where he was poisoned and then got bullied by Genos and subsequently got bullied even harder by Bang and Bomb meaning he attained the technique just by being struck with it, all of this while having a fever and having insufficient rest from getting stomped by Watchdog man. He then went on to use the CFDSF, a technique Bang and Bomb both created together that was meant to be used by two respective individuals, on his own against Darkshine without even having perceived the attack at all.
And in his around just two evolution from this form, which were both reached in the timeframe of Garou naturally evolving post Darkshine fight to fighting GS and then becoming awakened, also mixed over 10 (forgot the exact number) fighting styles into one, including Bang and Bomb's and created a fighting style that completely trumps over theirs meaning he has the capacity to fuse together and apply some of Baki's techniques into his own too.
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I would make this a single comment with the analysis of the fight and the response to several comments, but I'll make it two posts, as it'd derail the thing too much.
Firstly, I don't really like how the skill discussion became just a copying discussion. Copying a martial style is basically managing to capture it's techniques (ways to move the body), tempo, methodology and whatever special properties the art may have. Precision, discipline, experience, biomechanical & spatial optimization, awareness, terrain usage, usage of the person's powers in combat, among several others are a lot of other factors, with many being arguably way more important than copying. I would use fictional examples, but it isn't necessary, the point is that the copying stuff is way overvalued.
Secondly, about copying feats... Before, I'd like to mention that copying a technique isn't straightforward; there are nuances to a copying "level". A character can copy faster than the other, but the other can copy + improve upon the technique almost instantly, another can copy much more complex abilities, with many other, in-between aspects of technique mimicry. With that in mind, judging solely what I've seen on this thread and on the profiles, as I haven't read or seen much about OPM, Garou seeems to have a supernatural capacity of mimicry; he can copy moves he has never seen before by just seeing someone using the style. It is too much for merely random guessing, it goes almost into the realm of mind reading. If he sees Baki adopting, say, the Goutaijutsu stance, he'd be able to replicate all Goutai movements even if Baki used only one of them. He also seems to copy and adapt to movements faster, although the margin is... almost irrelevant. It's less that Garou is just a bit faster, he seems considerably faster in fact, but that at this level of play and fighting, better copying is almost a nil point. However, Baki seems to copy much more complex techniques with greater ease. The Benda, Shaori, Dress and many other techniques he has copied are much more delicate in body and energy control than what I've seen in this thread. I know it is a very subjective thing, but all of Bang's movements are quite realistic, if a bit exaggerated in relative speed, while something like a Benda, Whip Strike and Shaori are physically impossible by several factors. I don't doubt that Garou can copy Baki's more exotic techniques, but it should be far different than copying Bang's movements.
Thirdly, I don't know about Garou, but the way Baki fights isn't like how it is assumed here. Baki is not a copying-style fighter. He does use techniques he has learned, and on occasion he likes to mock enemies by using their own techniques against them and then saying to their face he will never use the technique again. But note one thing: He chooses to use said techniques on occasion, only to tackle specific problems, to answer "poetically" an enemy (Like using a Benda against Yanagi, who used it against Baki) or as an alternative option to doing a simpler, more direct blow. Usually, Baki sticks to the basics. Of course, basics upgraded by his natural abilities, by his powers such as inhuman flexibility and instinctive reaction and the like, but really, as Baki himself said, " don't need that technique to win". He prefers to stick to simply using normal blows, but the ones most adequate to that particular situation, while ocasionally doing some weird stuff to mix things up a bit.
Firstly, I don't really like how the skill discussion became just a copying discussion. Copying a martial style is basically managing to capture it's techniques (ways to move the body), tempo, methodology and whatever special properties the art may have. Precision, discipline, experience, biomechanical & spatial optimization, awareness, terrain usage, usage of the person's powers in combat, among several others are a lot of other factors, with many being arguably way more important than copying. I would use fictional examples, but it isn't necessary, the point is that the copying stuff is way overvalued.
Secondly, about copying feats... Before, I'd like to mention that copying a technique isn't straightforward; there are nuances to a copying "level". A character can copy faster than the other, but the other can copy + improve upon the technique almost instantly, another can copy much more complex abilities, with many other, in-between aspects of technique mimicry. With that in mind, judging solely what I've seen on this thread and on the profiles, as I haven't read or seen much about OPM, Garou seeems to have a supernatural capacity of mimicry; he can copy moves he has never seen before by just seeing someone using the style. It is too much for merely random guessing, it goes almost into the realm of mind reading. If he sees Baki adopting, say, the Goutaijutsu stance, he'd be able to replicate all Goutai movements even if Baki used only one of them. He also seems to copy and adapt to movements faster, although the margin is... almost irrelevant. It's less that Garou is just a bit faster, he seems considerably faster in fact, but that at this level of play and fighting, better copying is almost a nil point. However, Baki seems to copy much more complex techniques with greater ease. The Benda, Shaori, Dress and many other techniques he has copied are much more delicate in body and energy control than what I've seen in this thread. I know it is a very subjective thing, but all of Bang's movements are quite realistic, if a bit exaggerated in relative speed, while something like a Benda, Whip Strike and Shaori are physically impossible by several factors. I don't doubt that Garou can copy Baki's more exotic techniques, but it should be far different than copying Bang's movements.
Thirdly, I don't know about Garou, but the way Baki fights isn't like how it is assumed here. Baki is not a copying-style fighter. He does use techniques he has learned, and on occasion he likes to mock enemies by using their own techniques against them and then saying to their face he will never use the technique again. But note one thing: He chooses to use said techniques on occasion, only to tackle specific problems, to answer "poetically" an enemy (Like using a Benda against Yanagi, who used it against Baki) or as an alternative option to doing a simpler, more direct blow. Usually, Baki sticks to the basics. Of course, basics upgraded by his natural abilities, by his powers such as inhuman flexibility and instinctive reaction and the like, but really, as Baki himself said, " don't need that technique to win". He prefers to stick to simply using normal blows, but the ones most adequate to that particular situation, while ocasionally doing some weird stuff to mix things up a bit.
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Now, onto the fight itself:
I really like it. Garou is an awesome character and the concept is way too good of a fight to pass on. I may do some mistakes on this analysis as I know only about Baki, and I'm sticking to the profile and what I've seen here on the thread about Garou.
I don't really need to cover power. Baki is considerably stronger and can buff himself even higher than Garou can when buffing himself, but Garou has a very good lifting advantage. Baki can subvert it a bit by doing something like the Aiki that redirects the flow of energy, and if Garou isn't expecting it, break out of simple holds and stuff, especially with his body control. With Garou's skill and perception, however, such escapes would only work so much before he gets it.
Unsurprisingly, Garou's toughness makes up for Baki's superior raw power, mostly. His regeneration is very quick, his immortality allows to him not only shrug off stuff that would disable normal people, but outright be unable to be affected by it. Would Baki get caught off-guard by him surviving things normal people would've died to, like a very broken neck and being punched clean through, or having the heart stopped? Unlike how other people pointed out, unless Garou has some form of very good stealth mastery/presence hiding, Baki could feel he was still alive and willing to fight, as he can not only detect fighting spirit and bloodlust, but he has very acute, enhanced senses. He'd be surprised that someone can survive that, but I wouldn't say be caught off-guard.
On a skill match, I see Baki as being superior. I've already went on about copying (Short answer: Garou copies faster - although that is a moot point - and he has a superhuman intuition that enables him to copy a LOT of stuff by proxy at once, and even improve upon it noticeably better than Baki can, but Baki can copy much more complex techniques far more easily), but everything else, in basic instincts, experience, precision, applying the powers that he has, control over his own body, biomechanical efficiency, Baki simply seems better in general. I would debate this extensively, but I'm a bit out of time right now, and I don't have enough info on Garou to make a good analysis. Later I'll be up to the task if anyone is willing, but in general, Baki seems more skilled. Not by a lot, Garou is a rare character that isn't skill-stomped by Baki here, but still a considerable advantage.
In general power usefulness, I see a very unfortunate case: Baki has much more versatility and utility, with much more useful powers and ways to apply them, but the ones that Garou has mostly counter or nullify such advantages. With the fight dragging on, which it would, Garou would only get better and better by his continuous improving and accelerated development, and Baki would be pushed more and more into a corner.
For me, Garou wins after an extremely grueling battle, one he'd remember. Baki can win, especially if the condition was just to incap for a short amount of time, there was more context or if he was willing to go OOC, but Garou can win by either outlasting him or getting a very good grapple, while most of Baki's methods to win would require Garou to either not develop a resistance to what he's doing (Like spamming Bendas), acting very out of character or lighter requirements for a victory.
I really like it. Garou is an awesome character and the concept is way too good of a fight to pass on. I may do some mistakes on this analysis as I know only about Baki, and I'm sticking to the profile and what I've seen here on the thread about Garou.
I don't really need to cover power. Baki is considerably stronger and can buff himself even higher than Garou can when buffing himself, but Garou has a very good lifting advantage. Baki can subvert it a bit by doing something like the Aiki that redirects the flow of energy, and if Garou isn't expecting it, break out of simple holds and stuff, especially with his body control. With Garou's skill and perception, however, such escapes would only work so much before he gets it.
Unsurprisingly, Garou's toughness makes up for Baki's superior raw power, mostly. His regeneration is very quick, his immortality allows to him not only shrug off stuff that would disable normal people, but outright be unable to be affected by it. Would Baki get caught off-guard by him surviving things normal people would've died to, like a very broken neck and being punched clean through, or having the heart stopped? Unlike how other people pointed out, unless Garou has some form of very good stealth mastery/presence hiding, Baki could feel he was still alive and willing to fight, as he can not only detect fighting spirit and bloodlust, but he has very acute, enhanced senses. He'd be surprised that someone can survive that, but I wouldn't say be caught off-guard.
On a skill match, I see Baki as being superior. I've already went on about copying (Short answer: Garou copies faster - although that is a moot point - and he has a superhuman intuition that enables him to copy a LOT of stuff by proxy at once, and even improve upon it noticeably better than Baki can, but Baki can copy much more complex techniques far more easily), but everything else, in basic instincts, experience, precision, applying the powers that he has, control over his own body, biomechanical efficiency, Baki simply seems better in general. I would debate this extensively, but I'm a bit out of time right now, and I don't have enough info on Garou to make a good analysis. Later I'll be up to the task if anyone is willing, but in general, Baki seems more skilled. Not by a lot, Garou is a rare character that isn't skill-stomped by Baki here, but still a considerable advantage.
In general power usefulness, I see a very unfortunate case: Baki has much more versatility and utility, with much more useful powers and ways to apply them, but the ones that Garou has mostly counter or nullify such advantages. With the fight dragging on, which it would, Garou would only get better and better by his continuous improving and accelerated development, and Baki would be pushed more and more into a corner.
For me, Garou wins after an extremely grueling battle, one he'd remember. Baki can win, especially if the condition was just to incap for a short amount of time, there was more context or if he was willing to go OOC, but Garou can win by either outlasting him or getting a very good grapple, while most of Baki's methods to win would require Garou to either not develop a resistance to what he's doing (Like spamming Bendas), acting very out of character or lighter requirements for a victory.
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- Thread starter
- #72
Counted, and I love the analysis!
I'd definitely recommend reading OPM, its such a good series with such amazing artwork. Garou is one of the best characters as well.
Also, yeah... Baki is 100% more skilled than Garou atm, he fights and outskills people on par with Garou like every chapter lol.
I'd definitely recommend reading OPM, its such a good series with such amazing artwork. Garou is one of the best characters as well.
Also, yeah... Baki is 100% more skilled than Garou atm, he fights and outskills people on par with Garou like every chapter lol.
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I do like a lot the little I've seen from OPM (Some anime episodes and some specific chapters), and it is certainly on my to-read and to-watch lists, I just have things I need to finish first.
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Thank you for the analysis. I've read some Baki, but I'm not a Baki powerscaler so I'm sure I've missed out on some relevant points for Baki's side.
What is the score now?
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,382
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Garou FRA.
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10-0 then, guess we should be in grace by now lol.
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Yeah. I wish there was some way to register matches as done during a specific time period, some form of archive that allows us to see matches done by a profile during a specific period of time.
This match is too interesting to just remove after a profile change.
This match is too interesting to just remove after a profile change.
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Strongest feat that was done casually with 0 effort. Yujiro was laughing his ass out when stopping that earthquake and wasn't even using demon back.
