Frank V Luis (GRACE)

[BEASTHEART8800]

Both start at close range. Fight takes place at
Franklin's house. Both fully equipped.


No Vehicles (or else Frank stomps)

Luis: 2


Franklin: 7

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Both start at close range. Fight takes place at
Franklin's house. Both fully equipped.


No Vehicles (or else Frank stomps)

Luis:


Franklin:

You know, I think I'm the first one to reply here.

I'm definitely in a IRL CRT right now & I can definitely say that the Orca's KE does apply to itself, not sure about Franklin.

"a writer lucky enough to be aboard the ship during the rare phenomenon, reports for Australian Geographic that during the first two hours of the encounter groups of six to eight orcas would take turns pushing, bumping and ramming their quarry in attempts to drown the krill-feeding baleen whale...the orcas...finally drew blood after around three hours of battering the blue whale."
"On 29 July, it was reported that nine orcas surrounded a 46ft boat and proceeded to collectively ram it for over an hour, damaging both the engine and rudder and leaving the crew helplessly adrift"
"Victor Littlefield of Sitka said the killer whale repeatedly rammed the boat, yanked its anchor line and slapped the boat's bow with its tail.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/orca-whale-repeatedly-rams-fishing-boat-alaska-man-says
The 33-foot (10-meter) aluminum boat lurched to one side during the attack"
More sources on Orca KE

I think I'll test this by matching Franklin against an Orca later, but this is something worth talking about even if Frank doesn't scale fully to the Orca's KE.

Luis seem to be above baseline ("Regularly survives high falls without fractures. Was completely fine after falling from a helicopter and into the ocean in the mission A Revenger’s Tragedy (If the Deal Option is chosen), and can survive many other falls into water like these""
"Water could work," Allain says, "But you want to be like a pencil, and go as deep as possible, which increases your stopping time and decreases your acceleration."
...
"You would think that water would be helpful, but water tends to knock people out,""This is just like a fall on solid ground, where you can minimize the chances of a broken bone by crouching or rolling to increase time and the displacement of impact. The experience of a belly flop is a little closer to hitting a solid surface. Thus, the water feels like concrete, and we end up getting bruised."
") & Franklin can shatter a door.
15000 or 98315 < (516644.24 minimum), 98315*7.5 = 737362.5 J & 15000*7.5 = 112500 J. Frank confidently has an AP advantage & hopefully not a one-shot.

Though I'm curious to what they would do in character in this fight. Let's say that the fight is 98315 to 516644.24 J, does Luis have an advantage here? Advantage like experience, training, stats, tactics? Unlike him Franklin can regenerate from bullet wounds.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

When it comes to experience they should be Equal. Skill? Frank takes out Merryweather, Military, Government Agents easily so despite being inexperienced as Mike claims. So I'd say he's better as a gunman. Luis Might be better in H2H Tho. The AP advantage is real, not sure if it's one shot worthy tho.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

When it comes to experience they should be Equal. Skill? Frank takes out Merryweather, Military, Government Agents easily so despite being inexperienced as Mike claims. So I'd say he's better as a gunman. Luis Might be better in H2H Tho. The AP advantage is real, not sure if it's one shot worthy tho.

Has Luis fought anyone as strong as Franklin physically? Or will one or both of them just get distance from each other to use their weapons?

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

No. But yeah, Their weapons should be on par. And distance is allowed

 

[H3110l12345I20]

No. But yeah, Their weapons should be on par. And distance is allowed

I'm leaning towards Franklin due to skill, regen & AP advantage, what is the strongest thing Luis has fought canonically & does he have any notable info that would suggest he can fight & beat anyone stronger & more durable than him?

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

I ain't played TBOGT in like 9 or 10 years, but he mostly just Kills gangsters and such. As for him beating anyone stronger? He does have an AA12 with Explosive shells, and their heavy weapons should be on par with each other's.

And He should be a better fighter due to participating in a Fight club several times. Not that it means too much due to Frank's higher AP.

If he could land some serious hits on Franklin with his Explosive AA12 or his RPG or his Grenade launcher then he has a chance.
But Frank has Killed better. Far better. He's Killed FIB agents, Merryweather Mercs who have combat experience in several wars across the world, and US Soldiers.
All within his first year as a pro criminal. So seeing as the OP can now vote, I'll vote him for now.

 

[Schwxnz]

You can't be serious. Claiming Franklin to be more skilled than Luis is one of the most outrageous claims when it comes to GTA scaling.

Luis seem to be above baseline ("Regularly survives high falls without fractures. Was completely fine after falling from a helicopter and into the ocean in the mission A Revenger’s Tragedy (If the Deal Option is chosen), and can survive many other falls into water like these""

"Can survive high-speed crashes and being shot out of the windshield into walls at high speeds" is the very first feat listed on Niko's durability section and that is very easily in the hundreds of kilojoules at least. Check the references for common feats page.

& Franklin can shatter a door.

He can't. Or rather, he's never done this. The most anyone in GTA has done is kicking open a locked door and that was Trevor, who no one scales to. Niko's done the same thing like, thrice. Not that it matters, that is not a 9-B feat.

, does Luis have an advantage here? Advantage like experience, training, stats, tactics? Unlike him Franklin can regenerate from bullet wounds.

Franklin can regenerate from bullet wounds as long as he physically stands still and does not receive further damage. I really hope that I don't have to tell you how ridiculously useless that is here.

Luis absolutely washes him in the experience and skill departments. See below.

When it comes to experience they should be equal. Skill? Frank takes out Merryweather, Military, Government Agents easily so despite being inexperienced as Mike claims. So I'd say he's better as a gunman.

Most of the time when Franklin kills trained opponents he has help. I recall maybe five instances where he did it on his own and at least one was solely because he outranged them. Hell, going off of the mission's context he was most likely going to be overrun even with Lamar's help in the last mission when they faced some Merryweather folks, only managing to push them back when Michael and Trevor joined them.

Luis, on the other hand? He did most of the shit he did by himself. On his own, he solo'd armies of NOOSE units several times. NOOSE is based on the United States Department of Homeland Security. On many of these occasions they also had attack helicopters on their side, with Luis only sporting his normal weaponry. He also had to do so once while on top of a train, having had to fight his way along the train and disconnect the front carriage so that a buisness associate of his could steal it. He didn't have any real

He has also cleared out a plethora of Lost MC members. Two unnamed Lost MC members are able to fend off multiple armored police officers for a prolonged amount of time in The Lost and Damned's final mission.

He also took down the Bulgarin Bratva, including Timur, Bulgarin's right hand man, and Bulgarin himself. This is extremely impressive because of many factors, the most notable one being that Bulgarin's connections were so great within Europe that Niko preferred joining the merchant navy in order to escape Bulgarin's influence as opposed to just killing him. Admittedly, Bulgarin's influence was not yet as strong in America, it still stands to reason that a mafia boss with such strong connections has henchman that are extraordinarily skilled themselves.

Franklin is pretty decent, but there is no way he outskills Luis.

Luis Might be better in H2H Tho. The AP advantage is real, not sure if it's one shot worthy tho.

Yeah, Luis is definitely much better in H2H skill-wise. As you yourself have mentioned, he has cage fighting experience while Franklin lacks anything of the sorts.

The way the profiles look right now (which is not great) has GTA V folks scale to about 9 megajoules (check Trevor's durability section) while GTA IV folks scale to 0.734429 megajoules (taking the highest end for the car-crashing feat I mentioned above).
I'd argue that the GTA IV protagonists should also scale to 9MJ because unlike their successors they are able to survive being close to exploding cars, but I digress.

With the current state of the profiles Franklin would indeed one-shot in a physical confrontation. But that is absolutely meaningless because this is just going to be a gunfight.

I'm leaning towards Franklin due to skill, regen & AP advantage,

As covered before, he is not more skilled, regen is meaningless because it's not like Luis is just going to shoot him once and be done with it and the AP advantage is easily negated by the piercing damage of Luis' bullets.

I am voting for Luis.

 

[Schwxnz]

but he mostly just Kills gangsters and such.
But Frank has Killed better. Far better. He's Killed FIB agents, Merryweather Mercs who have combat experience in several wars across the world, and US Soldiers.

Please actually educate yourself on the feats of the character you are arguing against before making such claims.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

You can't be serious. Claiming Franklin to be more skilled than Luis is one of the most outrageous claims when it comes to GTA scaling.

Feats Prove otherwise, kid.

He can't. Or rather, he's never done this. The most anyone in GTA has done is kicking open a locked door and that was Trevor, who no one scales to. Niko's done the same thing like, thrice. Not that it matters, that is not a 9-B feat

They all scale to each other LMFAO, yeah Trevor is the strongest ofc, but they all perform similar feats in game

Luis, on the other hand? He did most of the shit he did by himself. On his own, he solo'd armies of NOOSE units several times. NOOSE is based on the United States Department of Homeland Security. On many of these occasions they also had attack helicopters on their side, with Luis only sporting his normal weaponry. He also had to do so once while on top of a train, having had to fight his way along the train and disconnect the front carriage so that a buisness associate of his could steal it. He didn't have any real

Yeah Frank Sniping Noose Choppers in "Threes company" as well. "Help" don't take that away. You have to be a skilled gunman to run with Michael and Trevor. Why do you think it matters so much who you pick for these heists? "Help" didn't save the guy with Lowest stats during the paleto job did it? No. In fact, Franklin took on the Army by himself in a bulldozer for a while, while everyone else was on the other side of town. In fact he shot down Merryweather Choppers by himself during the Merryweather heist while Mike was flying. What "Help"?
He's frequently praised by Michael and Trevor.
In fact he killed those government agents by himself, he was left behind because he got knocked out in that explosion, remember?

In Fact Franklin Killed scores of Noose by himself during the big score in the tunnel, when he tells the other guy to get the gold, so dats nothing, bruh.

I agree that Luis is more skilled Than I remember tho as I haven't played TBOGT in years.

He has also cleared out a plethora of Lost MC members. Two unnamed Lost MC members are able to fend off multiple armored police officers for a prolonged amount of time in The Lost and Damned's final mission.

And Franklin didn't clear a whole construction site full of Mobsters? And Franklin doesn't kill scores of Ballas with Stretch and Lamar (inb4 "hELp" they aren't nearly as competent a gunman as Frank is) and shot down a Police chopper?

He also took down the Bulgarin Bratva, including Timur, Bulgarin's right hand man, and Bulgarin himself. This is extremely impressive because of many factors, the most notable one being that Bulgarin's connections were so great within Europe that Niko preferred joining the merchant navy in order to escape Bulgarin's influence as opposed to just killing him. Admittedly, Bulgarin's influence was not yet as strong in America, it still stands to reason that a mafia boss with such strong connections has henchman that are extraordinarily skilled themselves

Yes I remember this, now. I'll admit this is a good look for Luis.

With the current state of the profiles Franklin would indeed one-shot in a physical confrontation. But that is absolutely meaningless because this is just going to be a gunfight.

True.

Please actually educate yourself on the feats of the character you are arguing against before making such claims.

I seem to be educated enough cuz my mind ain't changed

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Also taking down scores of SWAT officers is not that big a feat In any GTA, as all characters can do that during regular gameplay

 

[Schwxnz]

Feats Prove otherwise, kid.

Except that they don't in this case and you have not raised a single valid point that proves Franklin to be more skilled than Luis, kid.

They all scale to each other LMFAO, yeah Trevor is the strongest ofc, but they all perform similar feats in game

No one scales to Trevor's physical feats "LMFAO" he is literally stronger than Michael and Franklin put together what the **** are you saying

Yeah Frank Sniping Noose Choppers in "Threes company" as well. "Help" don't take that away. You have to be a skilled gunman to run with Michael and Trevor. Why do you think it matters so much who you pick for these heists? "Help" didn't save the guy with Lowest stats during the paleto job did it? No. In fact, Franklin took on the Army by himself in a bulldozer for a while, while everyone else was on the other side of town. In fact he shot down Merryweather Choppers by himself during the Merryweather heist while Mike was flying. What "Help"?

Most of the time when Franklin kills trained opponents he has help.

Most of the time

Also the crew members that can die in the paleto job literally only die because a car rammed into them and trapped them lmao that has nothing to do with skill

In Fact Franklin Killed scores of Noose by himself during the big score in the tunnel, when he tells the other guy to get the gold, so dats nothing, bruh.

If you genuinely think that killing a bunch of noose units in a tunnel where you have several means of taking cover is just as impressive as killing five times as many as well as taking out like three attack helicopters while on a slow-moving train with no means of taking cover then this is not worth my time and I am calling this debate quits this instance.

And Franklin didn't clear a whole construction site full of Mobsters? And Franklin doesn't kill scores of Ballas with Stretch and Lamar (inb4 "hELp" they aren't nearly as competent a gunman as Frank is) and shot down a Police chopper?

No, that's a fairly good feat, but unlike even basic Lost Mc members, those mobsters have no feats to their name. Also Franklin had a bit of help from them but he obviously did most of the work, but killing some normal street thugs isn't that great when compared to Luis.

Hell, Luis literally does the same in the Drug Wars side missions. Yes, he has two of his friends with him there but those missions always boil down to him taking down nearly all of them. Still just as good as the Ballas-killing-feat.

Also taking down scores of SWAT officers is not that big a feat In any GTA, as all characters can do that during regular gameplay

By that logic literally NOTHING in GTA is a great feat dude because pretty much every protagonist can do the same things in gameplay. That's just dumb

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

I'll reply to this later, gonna catch sum 's.
I've counted you for Luis

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Please actually educate yourself on the feats of the character you are arguing against before making such claims.

Sorry for being a secondary, as much as I'm interested in the verses themselves, I'm just going off of knowledgeable members's claims & my limited interpretation of the profiles. So if anyone can state where in the canon they get this info I'll happily side with such info. I also have the summer off so maybe I can see a full game play of the thing.

Also, I thought we scaled off of character's KE, not the truck's KE itself. Forgive me if I'm wrong in this area.

 

[Schwxnz]

It's all good, I wasn't talking to you when I said that.

I think you can scale to a vehicle's KE if said vehicle hits you and you are either slammed into a wall or the vehicle stops when it hits you.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

No one scales to Trevor's physical feats "LMFAO" he is literally stronger than Michael and Franklin put together what the **** are you saying

I showed you a clip of them all knocking each other out. Trevor is stronger than both of them, but not put together. Stop making shit up (Not trying to be rude) They have the same moveset, and perform the same thing in game. Trevor's ability is what helps him out the most.

Also the crew members that can die in the paleto job literally only die because a car rammed into them and trapped them lmao that has nothing to do with skill

Yes it does. It has everything to do with Skill. Lester will flat tell you when you pick someone who sucks ass. Why do you think Packie never dies during any heist? They only die because they have low stats.

By that logic literally NOTHING in GTA is a great feat dude because pretty much every protagonist can do the same things in gameplay. That's just dumb

Yes. No. Certain things, yes. Taking down a bunch of SWAT choppers on Train? Impressive. But is it wrong to say that literally every protagonist can do that? No. While some characters have better feats than others like CJ Single handedly sneaking through Area 69 and killing several soldiers.

But killing cops is one of the principles of GTA.
Dismissing this as dumb, is just, well dumb.

killing a bunch of noose units in a tunnel where you have several means of taking cover is just as impressive as killing five times as many as well as taking out like three attack helicopters while on a slow-moving train with no means of taking cover then this is not worth my time and I am calling this debate quits this instance.

For example I could quite literally go on like every GTA game in regular gameplay and mimic this feat. And Honestly Frank took out Merryweather Choppers despite being have no means of cover as well. And while hanging off the cargobob's bay with the Door wide open.

No, that's a fairly good feat, but unlike even basic Lost Mc members, those mobsters have no feats to their name. Also Franklin had a bit of help from them but he obviously did most of the work, but killing some normal street thugs isn't that great when compared to Luis.

Fair enough on the Mobsters, But Lost MC Members are regularly Killed By Franklin during the Car Scrapyard Missions.

 

[Schwxnz]

I showed you a clip of them all knocking each other out. Trevor is stronger than both of them, but not put together. Stop making shit up (Not trying to be rude) They have the same moveset, and perform the same thing in game. Trevor's ability is what helps him out the most.

Sometimes I wonder how it feels to say "stop making shit up" and immediately being corrected afterwards...

Regardless, no, Trevor is indeed a bit stronger than Michael and Franklin put together. See here.

21% of Michael's strength stat is maxed out and 49% of Franklin's. Together, they'd reach 70%.

Meanwhile, 79% of Trevor's strength stat is maxed out. He is stronger than the other two put together.

Yes it does. It has everything to do with Skill. Lester will flat tell you when you pick someone who sucks ass. Why do you think Packie never dies during any heist? They only die because they have low stats.

Damn bro I bet Norm Richards wishes that he was skilled enough to not get randomly crushed by a car

Yes. No. Certain things, yes. Taking down a bunch of SWAT choppers on Train? Impressive. But is it wrong to say that literally every protagonist can do that? No. While some characters have better feats than others like CJ Single handedly sneaking through Area 69 and killing several soldiers.

But killing cops is one of the principles of GTA.
Dismissing this as dumb, is just, well dumb.

For example I could quite literally go on like every GTA game in regular gameplay and mimic this feat. And Honestly Frank took out Merryweather Choppers despite being have no means of cover as well. And while hanging off the cargobob's bay with the Door wide open.

Yeah sure every GTA protag has killed cops at some point I'm not even trying to discredit that but it's incredibly stupid to go on and use stuff you can do in freeroam gameplay to justify that feat not being far more impressive than anything Franklin did. Hell, with the logic you use I could easily go on to say that Franklin's feats could easily be done by any other protagonist as well.

You should really only consider stuff characters do in missions. Doing otherwise is nonsense.

Fair enough on the Mobsters, But Lost MC Members are regularly Killed By Franklin during the Car Scrapyard Missions.

The Lost Mc isn't what it used to be by the time GTA V takes place but that's still a pretty good feat. I'd say Luis' feat is a tad more impressive because he did it while the Lost Mc was at a better state however.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Sometimes I wonder how it feels to say "stop making shit up" and immediately being corrected afterwards...

You haven't corrected me.

Regardless, no, Trevor is indeed a bit stronger than Michael and Franklin put together. See here.

21% of Michael's strength stat is maxed out and 49% of Franklin's. Together, they'd reach 70%.

Meanwhile, 79% of Trevor's strength stat is maxed out. He is stronger than the other two put together.

This all refers to the start of the game. The more you play, the better you become. When you start as Franklin he's the best driver, Michael the best Shooter, and Trevor's the strongest and the best pilot.
"Stats are maintained for each individual protagonist"

It literally says that for the article you linked.

Damn bro I bet Norm Richards wishes that he was skilled enough to not get randomly crushed by a car

I bet he does.

Yeah sure every GTA protag has killed cops at some point I'm not even trying to discredit that but it's incredibly stupid to go on and use stuff you can do in freeroam gameplay to justify that feat not being far more impressive than anything Franklin did

Then What's the point of you bringing that feat up in the first place? What you do in freeroam is okay to use because it's an accurate representation of what these characters are capable of.

Hell, with the logic you use I could easily go on to say that Franklin's feats could easily be done by any other protagonist as well.

Yes and no. Killing a bunch cops? (Which is what you're giving to Luis) That can be attributed to everyone in series. It's what makes GTA GTA. Taking on a Private Military Company? That has to be Proven.

You should really only consider stuff characters do in missions. Doing otherwise is nonsense.

Really hard disagree. Most of the feats they have to rate them comes from freeroam.

Gameplay matters just as much.

The Lost Mc isn't what it used to be by the time GTA V takes place but that's still a pretty good feat. I'd say Luis' feat is a tad more impressive because he did it while the Lost Mc was at a better state however

The Lost MC might be a shell of it's former self, so I say that's fair enough. But I have to ask, So Luis taking out the lost is impressive, because they can fight off cops, even though we just came to the conclusion that each and every protagonist does this?
The Vagos have been hitting the Lost pretty hard, Frank destroys them. The Ballas were fighting off some cops if I remember correctly in Hood Safari and Frank destroys them.


Sure Luis killed a bunch of the Lost MC when in they were in Their prime, but Franklin sniped a bunch of Mercenaries, who were directly compared to the Army in the same mission, all while they were shooting directly at him, and even brought down their chopper.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Regardless, no, Trevor is indeed a bit stronger than Michael and Franklin put together. See here.

21% of Michael's strength stat is maxed out and 49% of Franklin's. Together, they'd reach 70%.

Meanwhile, 79% of Trevor's strength stat is maxed out. He is stronger than the other two put together.

You should really only consider stuff characters do in missions. Doing otherwise is nonsense

Also, come on Dawg, lol.

U kno Deez 2 statements can't exist at the same time lmao.


EDIT: Now that I think about it, you seem to be contradicting yourself a lot.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Two unnamed Lost MC members are able to fend off multiple armored police officers for a prolonged amount of time in The Lost and Damned's final mission.

Most of the time when Franklin kills trained opponents he has help.

These two, for example. So Luis killing the Lost is impressive because they fought off cops in the final mission? Even though Johnny was there? And did most of the work?

But Franklin Killing Merryweather, Military, IAA and FIB Agents isn't as impressive because Michael and Trevor were there with him?

Come on, bro.

 

[Schwxnz]

Also, come on Dawg, lol.

U kno Deez 2 statements can't exist at the same time lmao.


EDIT: Now that I think about it, you seem to be contradicting yourself a lot.

Except that they absolutely can? I suppose I should've phrased my initial statement differently, but there's no reason to disregard the statistics because that's straight up just information about the characters given to us by the game.

Also, please, learn to type in normal coherent english. "U kno deez" does not make you seem cooler.

These two, for example. So Luis killing the Lost is impressive because they fought off cops in the final mission? Even though Johnny was there? And did most of the work?

But Franklin Killing Merryweather, Military, IAA and FIB Agents isn't as impressive because Michael and Trevor were there with him?

Come on, bro.

Are you slow? I was only referring to the random bikers that keep further reinforcements from the police from entering the prison while Johnny shoots it up.

Franklin has some pretty good feats and I'll definitely admit that I missed a few things but some stuff is certainly slightly less impressive because he had help. That's just logical.

This all refers to the start of the game. The more you play, the better you become. When you start as Franklin he's the best driver, Michael the best Shooter, and Trevor's the strongest and the best pilot.
"Stats are maintained for each individual protagonist"

It literally says that for the article you linked.

Thanks captain obvious.

The strength stat generally doesn't change too drastically as long as you purely play through all the missions - the gap is still there.

I bet he does.

You can't be ******* serious.

Sure, the game punishes you for using a shitty gunman, but literally NOTHING about the situation was about the skill of the gunman. He just got crushed by a car, anybody could have had that happen to them.

Yes and no. Killing a bunch cops? (Which is what you're giving to Luis) That can be attributed to everyone in series. It's what makes GTA GTA. Taking on a Private Military Company? That has to be Proven.

Again, Luis did not just "kill a bunch of cops." He took down a plethora of armored noose units, including like three attack helicopters while on a slow-moving train. That is infinitely more impressive than killing a bunch of cops and attributing that to every protagonist because you can somewhat replicate that feat in freeroam is crazy.

Really hard disagree. Most of the feats they have to rate them comes from freeroam.

Gameplay matters just as much.

No. Every character has plenty of feats without freeroam and stuff the player can do in freeroam does not indicate the character they play as to be canonically able to do so.

The Lost MC might be a shell of it's former self, so I say that's fair enough. But I have to ask, So Luis taking out the lost is impressive, because they can fight off cops, even though we just came to the conclusion that each and every protagonist does this?
The Vagos have been hitting the Lost pretty hard, Frank destroys them. The Ballas were fighting off some cops if I remember correctly in Hood Safari and Frank destroys them.


Sure Luis killed a bunch of the Lost MC when in they were in Their prime, but Franklin sniped a bunch of Mercenaries, who were directly compared to the Army in the same mission, all while they were shooting directly at him, and even brought down their chopper.

I mean, Luis is >>> Lost Mc bikers while the Lost Mc was in its prime while Franklin is >>> Lost Mc bikers while the Lost Mc is a shadow of its former self.

Also the impressive part is that just two Lost Mc bikers can fend off armored police officers while significantly outnumbered, not just that they killed some cops.


Nice feat, but Franklin was wielding a sniper rifle while he was on a vantage point. The odds were a bit stacked in his favor. I'm definitely not calling the feat unimpressive though but I think it's certainly less impressive than Luis' train feat as well as him taking down the Bulgarin Bratva.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Except that they absolutely can? I suppose I should've phrased my initial statement differently, but there's no reason to disregard the statistics because that's straight up just information about the characters given to us by the game.

Also, please, learn to type in normal coherent english. "U kno deez" does not make you seem cooler.

Man I love eating popcorn!
I mean there's online dictionaries & Grammarly. You usually don't need any of these if you're an english native like me.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Except that they absolutely can? I suppose I should've phrased my initial statement differently, but there's no reason to disregard the statistics because that's straight up just information about the characters given to us by the game.

Bingo. This is what I'm trying to tell you. Lol

But no. U can't have both.

Also, please, learn to type in normal coherent english. "U kno deez" does not make you seem cooler.

I hate when people do this. You clearly understand I'm saying anyway, I'm not typing like that to seem cooler lol. Come on, dude. I know you ain't 80 years old behind that screen.

Are you slow?

Don't be mean

? I was only referring to the random bikers that keep further reinforcements from the police from entering the prison while Johnny shoots it up

I know what you're talking about. But

Franklin has some pretty good feats and I'll definitely admit that I missed a few things but some stuff is certainly slightly less impressive because he had help. That's just logical.

Y wood u bring it up only to say it's less impressive for 1 character who took on more impressive opponents just cuz he wasn't the only 1 there? Despite the fact that he held off some soldiers on his own to get 2 Michael and Trevor.


U can't jus (I'll type like this more seeing as it annoys you lol) attribute that Lost feat to all of them, especially when those 2 lost dudes had help, from Johnny who did virtually all da work.

And then go on 2 to say Frank's is less impressive.

The strength stat generally doesn't change too drastically as long as you purely play through all the missions - the gap is still there.

What's da gap with max stats. Cuz I know damn well it's not Trevor stronger than both of them 2gether.

I mean there's online dictionaries & Grammarly. You usually don't need any of these if you're an english native like me.

Fax. I hate when people do that. You damn well know what I'm saying. Lol. Trying to seem smarter.

Sure, the game punishes you for using a shitty gunman, but literally NOTHING about the situation was about the skill of the gunman. He just got crushed by a car, anybody could have had that happen to them.

Then y is dat same dude able to die in a shootout in da FIB raid and da big score?

He's the worst Gunman in the game and there's consequences for picking him.

None of that happens to anyone else, because they're skilled.

Like Packie for example, who proved himself numerous times in GTA 4

Again, Luis did not just "kill a bunch of cops." He took down a plethora of armored noose units, including like three attack helicopters while on a slow-moving train. That is infinitely more impressive than killing a bunch of cops and attributing that to every protagonist because you can somewhat replicate that feat in freeroam is crazy.

Nah. It really ain't. Every game in the series has SWAT units. Every game has u killing a fuckton of them. It's nothing special. I'll Die on dat hill.

Free roam is perfectly fine to use.

No. Every character has plenty of feats without freeroam and stuff the player can do in freeroam does not indicate the character they play as to be canonically able to do so.

That logic usually applies to characters who are so powerful that it's difficult 2 show. Like say, Kratos' or Dante.;

Not for a game more grounded in reality.

Also the impressive part is that just two Lost Mc bikers can fend off armored police officers while significantly outnumbered, not just that they killed some cops.

Johnny wuz there, bruh.

Nice feat, but Franklin was wielding a sniper rifle while he was on a vantage point. The odds were a bit stacked in his favor. I'm definitely not calling the feat unimpressive though but I think it's certainly less impressive than Luis' train feat as well as him taking down the Bulgarin Bratva.

No. The odds weren't stacked in his favor enough. He wasn't far away enough, as Merryweather were still lighting his ass up (perhaps a skill feat right there)

And the buzzard was right in his ******* face, Michael didn't think Frank could do it, Frank didn't think Frank could do it, lol he thought he was going to die.

Also this feat is honestly more impressive to me, Luis has an explosive AA12 to take out the NOOSE chopper. Franklin had a sniper rifle, and to take out the pilot. All while being shot at with missiles and such

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Fax. I hate when people do that. You damn well know what I'm saying. Lol. Trying to seem smarter.

I mean, my understanding of your language is mid to mid-high LOL. Though If members don't understand you enough you can follow my advice or...
"

• If members use very bad grammar, and incoherent sentence structures, during edits, politely tell them to stop contributing without first using a good sentence- and spell-checking word processing program.

"
Anyways I just passed by & I am currently following the debates both of you are doing yum yum popcorn!. Someone's going to have to list the feats both characters did & when they did it in their respective canons on both debates.

 

[Schwxnz]

Firstly, I want to clear up something that I believe to be a misconception.

U can't jus (I'll type like this more seeing as it annoys you lol) attribute that Lost feat to all of them, especially when those 2 lost dudes had help, from Johnny who did virtually all da work.


Johnny wuz there, bruh

I am not talking about the two (Terry and Clay) that went with Johnny. Right as those three enter the prison Johnny orders two random unnamed bikers to stay at the gate and keep anyone from leaving or entering the prison.

Johnny was not there with them.

Bingo. This is what I'm trying to tell you. Lol

But no. U can't have both.

I admitted that my initial statement was poorly worded, but you very much can have both. Again, the statistics are 100% usable - they are quite literally uncontradicted information about the characters.

I hate when people do this. You clearly understand I'm saying anyway, I'm not typing like that to seem cooler lol. Come on, dude. I know you ain't 80 years old behind that screen.

Don't be mean

You're right about this and I'd like to apologize for my attitude.

Y wood u bring it up only to say it's less impressive for 1 character who took on more impressive opponents just cuz he wasn't the only 1 there? Despite the fact that he held off some soldiers on his own to get 2 Michael and Trevor.


U can't jus (I'll type like this more seeing as it annoys you lol) attribute that Lost feat to all of them, especially when those 2 lost dudes had help, from Johnny who did virtually all da work.

And then go on 2 to say Frank's is less impressive.

I meant to say that some feats where he had others assisting him are less impressive than they would have been if he did them entirely on his own. My bad.

Already talked about the Lost Mc thing above.

What's da gap with max stats. Cuz I know damn well it's not Trevor stronger than both of them 2gether.

Well, of course every protag is equal to each other in every way with max stats but that's clearly not canon lol

Then y is dat same dude able to die in a shootout in da FIB raid and da big score?

He's the worst Gunman in the game and there's consequences for picking him.

None of that happens to anyone else, because they're skilled.

Like Packie for example, who proved himself numerous times in GTA 4

Don't the cheap gunmen only die from an explosion in the FIB raid, not in an shootout? Genuinely asking because I might be misremembering.

Irregardless, to a degree that could be attributed to the fact that the cheaper gunmen tend to have pretty abysmal health when compared to the more expensive ones. Though of course the more expensive ones like Gustavo, Packie and Chef are heaps and bounds above them in terms of skill.

Nah. It really ain't. Every game in the series has SWAT units. Every game has u killing a fuckton of them. It's nothing special. I'll Die on dat hill.

Free roam is perfectly fine to use.

That is just ridiculously untrue and I don't feel like elaborating yet again.

Not for getting skill feats. Hell no.

That logic usually applies to characters who are so powerful that it's difficult 2 show. Like say, Kratos' or Dante.;

Not for a game more grounded in reality.

No, that logic applies to absolutely every character, not just absurdly powerful ones.

No. The odds weren't stacked in his favor enough. He wasn't far away enough, as Merryweather were still lighting his ass up (perhaps a skill feat right there)

And the buzzard was right in his ******* face, Michael didn't think Frank could do it, Frank didn't think Frank could do it, lol he thought he was going to die.

Also this feat is honestly more impressive to me, Luis has an explosive AA12 to take out the NOOSE chopper. Franklin had a sniper rifle, and to take out the pilot. All while being shot at with missiles and such

I have not once stated that him taking them all out is not a skill feat, it's just not quite as great as you are suggesting.

He wasn't even being shot at in the video you sent, the pilot really just flew in front of him and did nothing lol.

Frank's feat is certainly not more impressive because he really just had to take down a car full of Merryweather mercs at a time.


On another note, I'm probably going to be less active in regards to this debate for now. Different time zone and shift work and all.

 

[Schwxnz]

I mean, my understanding of your language is mid to mid-high LOL. Though If members don't understand you enough you can follow my advice or...
"

• If members use very bad grammar, and incoherent sentence structures, during edits, politely tell them to stop contributing without first using a good sentence- and spell-checking word processing program.

"
Anyways I just passed by & I am currently following the debates both of you are doing yum yum popcorn!. Someone's going to have to list the feats both characters did & when they did it in their respective canons on both debates.

That's pretty nice of you, but I was really just being a dick above - it's fine.

Thank you regardless!

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

I'm not going to go back and forth on this. Most of the stuff you said isn't even worth a response, but I think I'm still going for one final response.

Alright then

am not talking about the two (Terry and Clay) that went with Johnny. Right as those three enter the prison Johnny orders two random unnamed bikers to stay at the gate and keep anyone from leaving or entering the prison.

Yes Terry and Clay. I remember them now.

They were killed by Trevor, rite?

And Honestly, it was still 2 of em lol.

It would be a bit more impressive if it was one guy. (See what I'm doing here?)

I admitted that my initial statement was poorly worded, but you very much can have both. Again, the statistics are 100% usable - they are quite literally uncontradicted information about the characters

Not really.

You said only missons should be considered.

Why should the stats be considered if gameplay is invalid?

Nothing in the missons shows Trevor being stronger than Mike and Frank together.

Not that I disagree with the stats ofc.

You're right about this and I'd like to apologize for my attitude.

You're good no big deal

Well, of course every protag is equal to each other in every way with max stats but that's clearly not canon lol

How not? How's that not canon? Unlike certain stats like Mike being the best shot, Frank being the best Driver, and Trevor being the best pilot, everything is up to you. Strength and stealth and stamina and such have no indication of being non canonical

Don't the cheap gunmen only die from an explosion in the FIB raid, not in an shootout? Genuinely asking because I might be misremembering.

Yes, but it's also entirely possible for them to die in a shootout.

Irregardless, to a degree that could be attributed to the fact that the cheaper gunmen tend to have pretty abysmal health when compared to the more expensive ones. Though of course the more expensive ones like Gustavo, Packie and Chef are heaps and bounds above them in terms of skill.

Irregardless? Irregardless isn't even a word (American Dad reference lol) But yeah, you can say that. The game states their accuracy and weapon choice level. And their's are piss poor.

No, that logic applies to absolutely every character, not just absurdly powerful ones

No just absurdly powerful ones because you'd break the immersion of the game showing how powerful they truly are.

Not the case with tier 9 characters.

He wasn't even being shot at in the video you sent, the pilot really just flew in front of him and did nothing lol.

That's cuz the player killed him immediately. Skip to 10:25.

Frank's feat is certainly not more impressive because he really just had to take down a car full of Merryweather mercs at a time.

Full of Mercs skilled enough to still tag him plenty of times while being quite far away.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

I mean, my understanding of your language is mid to mid-high LOL. Though If members don't understand you enough you can follow my advice or...

I was mostly just dicking around. I do speak like that and type like that IRL, but it was heavily exaggerated in this case lol

 

[Schwxnz]

Yes Terry and Clay. I remember them now.

They were killed by Trevor, rite?

And Honestly, it was still 2 of em lol.

It would be a bit more impressive if it was one guy. (See what I'm doing here?)

Yes, it was two of them. I acknowledged that from the very start.

Not really.

You said only missons should be considered.

Why should the stats be considered if gameplay is invalid?

Nothing in the missons shows Trevor being stronger than Mike and Frank together.

Not that I disagree with the stats ofc.

Why are you getting worked up over my initial wording, I already admitted it to be poor. You haven't really responded to my point itself.

And, if you really wanna go that route you have Trevor one-shotting human beings multiple times as well as kicking a door open while Michael has overpowering an athletic dude with one arm and Franklin has nothing. Trevor's feats are far more impressive.

How not? How's that not canon? Unlike certain stats like Mike being the best shot, Frank being the best Driver, and Trevor being the best pilot, everything is up to you. Strength and stealth and stamina and such have no indication of being non canonical

Literally what indicates all three protagonists to have every statistics bar completely filled out when they are nowhere close at the start?

Yes, but it's also entirely possible for them to die in a shootout.

Really? I actually didn't know that. Thought you just mission fail if they die.

I'd still say that their super low health plays a huge role there, though it's definitely got a good bit to do with their skill.

Irregardless? Irregardless isn't even a word (American Dad reference lol)

Never really watched it haha

No just absurdly powerful ones because you'd break the immersion of the game showing how powerful they truly are.

Not the case with tier 9 characters.

For starters, protagonists are genuinely threatened by a handgun during story sequences - you won't see them tanking a truck crashing into them anytime soon. And you also wouldn't see Franklin, someone repeatedly stated to be inexperienced taking out literal armies of soldiers on his own during a mission.

That's cuz the player killed him immediately. Skip to 10:25.

That pilot literally took a good bit to do something and then still missed every shot lmao

Full of Mercs skilled enough to still tag him plenty of times while being quite far away.

Tagging him there isn't really that impressive because he didn't have any way to take cover.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Yes, it was two of them. I acknowledged that from the very start.

Honestly you should stop bringing it up. You keep trying to prop them up, while putting Frank down.

Despite them being virtually identical scenarios.

Even better, Like I've said before, Frank holds off the military on his own, on his way to me Mike and Trevor.

Why are you getting worked up over my initial wording, I already admitted it to be poor. You haven't really responded to my point itself.

No you didn't word anything wrong, lol

You straight up contradicted yourself.

And, if you really wanna go that route you have Trevor one-shotting human beings multiple times as well as kicking a door open while Michael has overpowering an athletic dude with one arm and Franklin has nothing. Trevor's feats are far more impressive.

I think I'll go your route and say everyone Trevor one shots is weak and Featless.
Johnny? A washed up Junkie.
That one guy in that mission where you have save Michael? Featless.

Why Bring up Mike overpowering that swole dude on the boat if you're arguing in favor of the stats just to say it's more impressive than anything Frank's done?

Despite the fact that the stats say he's stronger from the start.

Also on the very article that u linked.

Literally what indicates all three protagonists to have every statistics bar completely filled out when they are nowhere close at the start?

Huh? That's not what I'm arguing lol

I'd still say that their super low health plays a huge role there, though it's definitely got a good bit to do with their skill.

Combination of both. You can their stats when u select then

For starters, protagonists are genuinely threatened by a handgun during story sequences - you won't see them tanking a truck crashing into them anytime soon. And you also wouldn't see Franklin, someone repeatedly stated to be inexperienced taking out literal armies of soldiers on his own during a mission.

Bruh I get killed with a handgun all the time when playing this game. I started a fight on Grove Street and got killed by one guy after he got the strap (pistol lol) That's not out of the ordinary.
Franklin's Skill and potential are frequently mentioned.

You would in GTA.

That pilot literally took a good bit to do something and then still missed every shot lmao

That's just this video, cuz I replayed this Misson for this debate and He shot me plenty of times

Lol dude, you're trying really hard to downplay

Tagging him there isn't really that impressive because he didn't have any way to take cover.

He was still pretty far away. Also

impressive as killing five times as many as well as taking out like three attack helicopters while on a slow-moving train with no means of taking cover then this is not worth my time and I am calling this debate quits this instance.

U see this?

So do you agree it's strange for you downplay this?
So Frank had no means of cover. Luis had no means of cover. How is it more impressive for Luis? He shot Down choppers shooting at with a AA12. Franklin shot down a chopper shooting at him by killing the pilot with a sniper rifle.

 

[Schwxnz]

Honestly you should stop bringing it up. You keep trying to prop them up, while putting Frank down.

Despite them being virtually identical scenarios.

Even better, Like I've said before, Frank holds off the military on his own, on his way to me Mike and Trevor.

I'm not even trying to imply that Lost Mc bikers are more skilled than Franklin.

Again,

I meant to say that some feats where he had others assisting him are less impressive than they would have been if he did them entirely on his own. My bad.

Of course the Lost Mc feat would be more impressive if it was just one biker fending them off, but the feat itself is still pretty good. Just like Franklin has plenty of good feats even if he had assistance a few times.

No you didn't word anything wrong, lol

You straight up contradicted yourself.

Buzz off. I've corrected that statement already.

I think I'll go your route and say everyone Trevor one shots is weak and Featless.
Johnny? A washed up Junkie.
That one guy in that mission where you have save Michael? Featless.

Why Bring up Mike overpowering that swole dude on the boat if you're arguing in favor of the stats just to say it's more impressive than anything Frank's done?

Despite the fact that the stats say he's stronger from the start.

Trevor also one-shot an athlete in his Mary-Ann mission-

You've stated the following in an attempt to disregard the specifics of the strength statistic:

"Nothing in the missons shows Trevor being stronger than Mike and Frank together."

If you wanna go down that route and disregard the statistic which makes Franklin over twice as strong as Michael then Frank has no physical strength feats.

Huh? That's not what I'm arguing lol

What's da gap with max stats. Cuz I know damn well it's not Trevor stronger than both of them 2gether.

Well, of course every protag is equal to each other in every way with max stats but that's clearly not canon lol

How not? How's that not canon? Unlike certain stats like Mike being the best shot, Frank being the best Driver, and Trevor being the best pilot, everything is up to you. Strength and stealth and stamina and such have no indication of being non canonical

Then WHAT are you arguing?

Combination of both. You can their stats when u select then

Yes and I've agreed with you on this.

Bruh I get killed with a handgun all the time when playing this game. I started a fight on Grove Street and got killed by one guy after he got the strap (pistol lol) That's not out of the ordinary.
Franklin's Skill and potential are frequently mentioned.

You would in GTA.

Well you probably didn't 1v1 that dude, right? Personally I find it pretty easy to take down pistol wielding when they are alone lol

His inexperience has been mentioned a few times as well. At the beginning of the game he was also regarded as mostly unskilled by Michael if I recall correctly (though please note that I am not calling him unskilled by the end of the game).

That's just this video, cuz I replayed this Misson for this debate and He shot me plenty of times

Lol dude, you're trying really hard to downplay

Nah I just found that stupidly funny lol. I also had a bit more trouble with that chopper back when I played that mission the first few times

He was still pretty far away. Also

U see this?

So do you agree it's strange for you downplay this?
So Frank had no means of cover. Luis had no means of cover. How is it more impressive for Luis? He shot Down choppers shooting at with a AA12. Franklin shot down a chopper shooting at him by killing the pilot with a sniper rifle.

I'm not downplaying Franklin's feat. I'm just saying that it's not much of an accomplishment for the Merryweather mercs to be able to tag him if he can't take cover.

I actually think Franklin taking them down in spite of that makes the feat a good bit better.

Luis was closer to the noose units during his feat, that alone makes it more impressive to me, but Frank's feat is of course nothing to scoff at.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

I'm not even trying to imply that Lost Mc bikers are more skilled than Franklin.

Yeah, I know, I'm not saying you did

Of course the Lost Mc feat would be more impressive if it was just one biker fending them off, but the feat itself is still pretty good. Just like Franklin has plenty of good feats even if he had assistance a few times.

I just feel like you're using this to brush off his feats.

Buzz off. I've corrected that statement already.

"Corrected" lol okay I'll leave you alone on this

You've stated the following in an attempt to disregard the specifics of the strength

Actually

Then WHAT are you arguing?

I'm not disregarding anything. I was using your logic against u. You kept saying things
such as "only missons should be used" and "gameplay is irrelevant" just to randomly go against that to post in game statistics.
I support the stats

Make your mind up, dog.

Well you probably didn't 1v1 that dude, right? Personally I find it pretty easy to take down pistol wielding when they are alone lol

Sometimes I whoop too much ass and I get jumped with pistols instead. Sometimes just 1 dude whips it out fast and blasts me

Nah I just found that stupidly funny lol. I also had a bit more trouble with that chopper back when I played that mission the first few times

The very first time I played it, it ******* killed me. I tried to use deadeye. Only I forgot I wasn't playing Red dead lol

His inexperience has been mentioned a few times as well. At the beginning of the game he was also regarded as mostly unskilled by Michael if I recall correctly (though please note that I am not calling him unskilled by the end of the game).

This is true. He's not outright called unskilled, as Michael constantly tells him "you did good" but he does say in the madrazo mission where's Mike's wife got Piped, and his men come after you, he tells him his aim is all over the place, so you might have a small point.

I actually think Franklin taking them down in spite of that makes the feat a good bit better

Alright so I've got you convinced that it's a better feat than you originally thought.

Luis was closer to the noose units during his feat, that alone makes it more impressive to me, but Frank's feat is of course nothing to scoff at.

He was closer. But if you think about it, isn't it easier at close range to kill them? Especially with the spread of a shotgun that has explosive shells. Is it not more difficult to deal with highly trained soldiers directly shooting at you from a distance, all while being additionally shot at by a ******* chopper?

Luis' feat was impressive, sure, but dude had an AA12 with explosive shells, and close range. Franklin had a sniper rifle to take out buzzards and Mercs directly shooting at him

I think his feat is more impressive. Luis' feat is like something you'd see in of those 80's action movies which is badass and honestly why I think you think it's more impressive.

It's a bit more cinematic.

 

[Schwxnz]

I just feel like you're using this to brush off his feats.

I'll admit that I can definitely see how it came across that way, especially at the start of the debate and I see how that was wrong.

Actually

I'm not disregarding anything. I was using your logic against u. You kept saying things
such as "only missons should be used" and "gameplay is irrelevant" just to randomly go against that to post in game statistics.
I support the stats

Make your mind up, dog.

Those statistics aren't really contradicted by anything, though, which is why I think they are good to be used. More ridiculous stuff that's not supported by anything should not be used in my opinion.

I probably didn't get that point across very well, my bad.

Sometimes I whoop too much ass and I get jumped with pistols instead. Sometimes just 1 dude whips it out fast and blasts me

Off-topic but in both GTA IV and GTA V I love just getting in fistfights while in friend activities. Shame that Michael/Trevor/Franklin will immediately start blasting those that attack you lol

The very first time I played it, it ******* killed me. I tried to use deadeye. Only I forgot I wasn't playing Red dead lol

Okay, that's relatable lmao. Still gotta play Read Dead soon

Alright so I've got you convinced that it's a better feat than you originally thought.

Yes, you have.

He was closer. But if you think about it, isn't it easier at close range to kill them? Especially with the spread of a shotgun that has explosive shells. Is it not more difficult to deal with highly trained soldiers directly shooting at you from a distance, all while being additionally shot at by a ******* chopper?

Luis' feat was impressive, sure, but dude had an AA12 with explosive shells, and close range. Franklin had a sniper rifle to take out buzzards and Mercs directly shooting at him

I think his feat is more impressive. Luis' feat is like something you'd see in of those 80's action movies which is badass and honestly why I think you think it's more impressive.

It's a bit more cinematic.

I think it's kinda 50/50 on that. Like, it's obviously easier for Luis to hit them but they also have an easier time with hitting him.

I still consider Luis' feat a bit more impressive, personally. He took down considerably more opponents with odds that were both benefiting and kinda putting him at a disadvantage. But I can see why you think that Frank's feat is more impressive. I feel like Luis taking down the Bulgarin Bratva, which should allow him to somewhat scale to Niko's skill feats definitely gives him a leg up when it comes to skill regardless.

I'll say that skill is definitely not quite as one-sided as I initially thought, though, you've convinced me of that.

 

[GoCommitDi]

"It's Luis, mane" FRA. Also, glad I'm not the only one who disagrees with GTA 5 characters scaling to 9 MJ.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

I'll admit that I can definitely see how it came across that way, especially at the start of the debate and I see how that was wrong.

Alright, good to hear.

Those statistics aren't really contradicted by anything, though, which is why I think they are good to be used. More ridiculous stuff that's not supported by anything should not be used in my opinion.

What else in gameplay is contradicted by someone? The cop rampages? How?
Does the game not have you escape, and mow them down numerous times during the story?

Off-topic but in both GTA IV and GTA V I love just getting in fistfights while in friend activities. Shame that Michael/Trevor/Franklin will immediately start blasting those that attack you lol

I honestly the think fistfights are more realistic to how the average guy fights in GTA which is something I like, and the knockouts are satisfying. But I like 4 more cuz it had more mechanics, block and disarm and shit like that. It's very difficult to disarm a knife in real life, and an NPC with a knife is very dangerous, and can be an insta Kill in V, so that's very realistic, while IV is more action hero like.

Okay, that's relatable lmao. Still gotta play Read Dead soon

You really should. Both of them.

I think it's kinda 50/50 on that. Like, it's obviously easier for Luis to hit them but they also have an easier time with hitting him.

I'm sure it's easier for him to hit them than vice versa. He had a Full auto explosive shotgun. The weapon significantly helped.

But they did swarm him, so

I feel like Luis taking down the Bulgarin Bratva, which should allow him to somewhat scale to Niko's skill feats definitely gives him a leg up when it comes to skill regardless.

Not sure. I honestly think Luis just has more instances of him doing shit on his own, which is why u think this. Which makes sense, cuz he's the sole protagonist in his game, unlike GTA V which has 3 playable protagonists.

Franklin even holding off the Military temporarily, is more impressive than anything Luis does. Or the numerous occasions of him taking out Merryweather. Or the time he killed a bunch of government agents in a burning building. Him singlehandedly saving Michael from the Triads Is just like that time Luis killed a bunch of them when Billy set them up (is that what happened? Haven't played TBOGT in a long time)

Him being more skilled I highly disagree with. Maybe in H2H (which does have a high chance of happening in this fight cuz it takes place at close range in Frank's house) but as a gunman no sir. I think Luis just has more individual fights because he's the only playable character, and Franklin less cuz he's not.

But during these he fights more dangerous people.

In fact he has more than one example of bringing down buzzards with a sniper. LikeHere @ 9:24. In which he's praised by Trevor. The video I showed you earlier. And the other approach. Well that one uses an LMG but still.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Frank's arsenal is much larger. And that's just single player. I believe he also has access to some of the online weapons as well when you play as him In the short trips, but I'm not entirely sure, but regardless, more weapons, and are modifiable like, scopes, grips, extended mags, drum mags, etc.

He's got home court advantage so it would be easier for him to rig the place with sticky bombs and proximity mines, as while as spam them while firing at Luis.

So in short

• Physical AP advantage
• Better weapons
• Hometurf
• Fought more dangerous people

Only thing Luis has going is that he's a better fighter.
I think Frank takes this 4/5. High diff

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Also Frank has Regen.

Franklin can regenerate from bullet wounds as long as he physically stands still and does not receive further damage. I really hope that I don't have to tell you how ridiculously useless that is here.

It definitely isn't useless. All he has to do is take cover and like I said earlier he has hometurf, and could just shoot him self some space with a minigun. Or Fire at him with his rifles and throw bombs at the same, given he has 60 rounds mags and 100 round drum mags, That gives him more than enough time to take cover and heal

 

[GoCommitDi]

Mid-Low regen isn't anything impressive in general. Sure, Franklin can take cover, but that level of regen can only help him for so long.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Yeah but any Regen is a lot better than no Regen.

 

[Schwxnz]

What else in gameplay is contradicted by someone? The cop rampages? How?
Does the game not have you escape, and mow them down numerous times during the story?

More ridiculous stuff that's not supported by anything should not be used in my opinion.

I'm not referring to being able to kill groups of cops, I explicitly talked about more ridiculous stuff that they didn't come close to doing in missions.

I honestly the think fistfights are more realistic to how the average guy fights in GTA which is something I like, and the knockouts are satisfying. But I like 4 more cuz it had more mechanics, block and disarm and shit like that. It's very difficult to disarm a knife in real life, and an NPC with a knife is very dangerous, and can be an insta Kill in V, so that's very realistic, while IV is more action hero like.

Yee, I agree. I've had a lot of fun with fistfights in both games.

Franklin even holding off the Military temporarily, is more impressive than anything Luis does. Or the numerous occasions of him taking out Merryweather. Or the time he killed a bunch of government agents in a burning building. Him singlehandedly saving Michael from the Triads Is just like that time Luis killed a bunch of them when Billy set them up (is that what happened? Haven't played TBOGT in a long time)

I assume you are referring to the events in the chicken factory in the paleto score? If so, then I think this is one example where Michael and Trevor did do most of the work (although Franklin certainly didn't just do nothing). Y'know, Michael told him to stay behind him and all, they were playing it safe so that Franklin wouldn't die.

Merryweather is just straight up not that impressive. As covered numerous times, it's not like every single merc has fought in several wars. Hell, you can't even prove that every merc fought in one war. The "wars all around the globe" statement is a little vague.

Almost. It was Rocco who set them up, I'm pretty sure. The guy Michael killed for Solomon.

Him being more skilled I highly disagree with. Maybe in H2H (which does have a high chance of happening in this fight cuz it takes place at close range in Frank's house) but as a gunman no sir. I think Luis just has more individual fights because he's the only playable character, and Franklin less cuz he's not.

But during these he fights more dangerous people.

In fact he has more than one example of bringing down buzzards with a sniper. LikeHere @ 9:24. In which he's praised by Trevor. The video I showed you earlier. And the other approach. Well that one uses an LMG but still.

Luis definitely far outclasses Franklin in hand to hand combat, there's no maybe about that in my mind, but that is meaningless - both have several shotguns and other close-ranged weapons. H2H is irrelevant here.

Something I feel like noting is that a good few of the feats you are mentioning have been done by a sniper wielding Franklin. If this was a max range fight, this might be a different debate altogether, but the OP states that they start at close range so I don't think those feats are very relevant.

I also disagree with him fighting more dangerous people because again, Merryweather is not that impressive and him fending off the military is also kinda eh. There's nothing to indicate that he actually shot any on the way over to M and T and later the other two did most of the work.

Frank's arsenal is much larger. And that's just single player. I believe he also has access to some of the online weapons as well when you play as him In the short trips, but I'm not entirely sure, but regardless, more weapons, and are modifiable like, scopes, grips, extended mags, drum mags, etc.

He's got home court advantage so it would be easier for him to rig the place with sticky bombs and proximity mines, as while as spam them while firing at Luis.

Franklin's got the quantity advantage by far but that can be just as much of a blessing as a curse. What's to say that he goes for the absolute best choice right away? Not sure about the short trips stuff, I really just recall Lamar and him initially only wielding a pistol.

As soon as he starts to throw any of his throwables Luis is going to blast him away with the explosive shotgun. I don't think that's much of a wincon and throwing them while firing at him is not too much better.

So in short

*Physical AP advantage

Meaningless, this is going to be a gunfight.

*Better weapons

At long range, yes. But honestly, the explosive shotgun is definitely better than Frank's shotguns and I feel like the golden smg can definitely hang with Franklin's best close-ranged firearms.

*Hometurf

Valid advantage, no arguments there.

*Fought more dangerous people

As covered earlier, I don't believe this to be true.

Also Frank has Regen.

It definitely isn't useless. All he has to do is take cover and like I said earlier he has hometurf, and could just shoot him self some space with a minigun. Or Fire at him with his rifles and throw bombs at the same, given he has 60 rounds mags and 100 round drum mags, That gives him more than enough time to take cover and heal

He is not going to regen from being blasted apart by the explosive shotgun. It's still anything but useful.

Luis has access to the Combat MG which has 200 rounds mags, so I don't think those weapons give Frank much of a leg up.

Only thing Luis has going is that he's a better fighter.

He's a better fighter, generally has more solid feats and his best weapons are comparable if not superior to Frank's.

I still think Luis takes this very solidly. Probably around 9/10 times.