Frank V Luis (GRACE)

[BEASTHEART8800]

I'm not referring to being able to kill groups of cops, I explicitly talked about more ridiculous stuff that they didn't come close to doing in missions

Like what, exactly?

Yee, I agree. I've had a lot of fun with fistfights in both games.

Yeah they're great.

Red Dead 2's fist fights are fun too.

I assume you are referring to the events in the chicken factory in the paleto score? If so, then I think this is one example where Michael and Trevor did do most of the work (although Franklin certainly didn't just do nothing). Y'know, Michael told him to stay behind him and all, they were playing it safe so that Franklin wouldn't die.

Before that when he's in the bulldozer. He takes out bunch of em before that. The plan with boat escape was botched and his was on his own to find the bulldozer to rescue Mike and Trevor.

Merryweather is just straight up not that impressive. As covered numerous times, it's not like every single merc has fought in several wars. Hell, you can't even prove that every merc fought in one war. The "wars all around the globe" statement is a little vague.

I never said "every Merc" the main point is their better armed and trained than anyone Luis has fought.

Don't tell me you put NOOSE above Them

And right after that statement Trevor says that freighter was first on their list, meaning their the best of the best. And PMC's don't just give random grunts a job. Their website says they hiring for ex-soldiers, and existing soldiers who seek quadruple pay. They're all trained.

Merryweather is not that impressive and him fending off the military is also kinda eh. There's nothing to indicate that he actually shot any on the way over to M and T and later the other two did most of the work.

Which mission are referring to? I'll assume the last one. If so, they all took out Merryweather on their own, on their own sides of the area.
EOG Frank was so skilled, that Mike and Trevor wanted him to start the ambush

He was Killing noose with Lamar outside.
Franklin >>>>>>>> Lamar
Or are you talking bout Paleto?
If so, he did kill several soldiers on the way to pick them up, remember?

Franklin's got the quantity advantage by far but that can be just as much of a blessing as a curse. What's to say that he goes for the absolute best choice right away?

Lol really?

If this was a max range fight, this might be a different debate altogether

So you admit Frank is a better shot?
As ranged accuracy can translate to close range accuracy.
That's a wincon, bro.

As soon as he starts to throw any of his throwables Luis is going to blast him away with the explosive shotgun. I don't think that's much of a wincon and throwing them while firing at him is not too much better

It would be tough for him to do that when he's getting pinned down by continuous fire from a G36 With a 100 round drum. Or while suffering the effects of tear gas

Meaningless, this is going to be a gunfight.

No, not meaningless. This is a close range fight. And tackling Luis wouldn't exactly be out of character for Franklin.

But honestly, the explosive shotgun is definitely better than Frank's shotguns

I agree.

Luis has access to the Combat MG which has 200 rounds mags, so I don't think those weapons give Frank much of a leg up.

Yeah I remember the M249 From TBOGT.

Franklin's has a scope and a grip which will help him when it comes to accuracy, while Luis' M249 is bare.

Franklin's M249 (or whatever the hell it was supposed to be as it has a M60 stock, GTA V Weapons were weird) > Luis' M249

Not too that's the only LMG Luis has. Franklin has a PKM along with that.

his best weapons are comparable if not superior to Frank's.

His weapons are comparable. Superior? No. Except for the AA12 with the explosive shells. But that's it. Franklin has a Minigun.

the golden smg can definitely hang with Franklin's best close-ranged firearms.

I remember that golden Uzi. One of my favorite weapons in the series. Franklin has an SMG just like that with a scope and grip. Along with his others the MP5 and Tec9 and the (MPX?) and the P90 looking one. They all have 60 rounds extendos and grips and shit like that.

His weapons are more upgraded. Luis' have no attachments. Someone with weapon upgrades have big ups in Gunfights.

generally has more solid feats

Pretty much the only feat you keep bringing up is the chopper one.

Franklin Killing a whole team of government agents in a difficult to see, burning building, with declining oxygen levels, all by himself, right after being knocked out in an explosion, should be talked about a lil bit more, here.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Also, the Merryweather website (I'm looking at it rite now btw) says while working for them
You, in their exact words:
- "Travel the world" " get a tan"

• "Go on a rampage outside the boundaries of international law.
• "We do the stuff the army isn't allowed to say they do"

 

[Schwxnz]

Like what, exactly?

Uhhh as an example things like driving into the military base and holding off armies of soldiers when Michael was implying that Franklin wouldn't make it in the chicken factory if he didn't stay behind him during the paleto score.

Yeah they're great.

Red Dead 2's fist fights are fun too.

I've seen videos of RDR2's fist fights and dude, that shit looks amazing.

Before that when he's in the bulldozer. He takes out bunch of em before that. The plan with boat escape was botched and his was on his own to find the bulldozer to rescue Mike and Trevor.

There's nothing to say that he actually took out any of them before he got the bulldozer, otherwise he'd have been chased by them.

I never said "every Merc" the main point is their better armed and trained than anyone Luis has fought.

Don't tell me you put NOOSE above Them

And right after that statement Trevor says that freighter was first on their list, meaning their the best of the best. And PMC's don't just give random grunts a job. Their website says they hiring for ex-soldiers, and existing soldiers who seek quadruple pay. They're all trained.

I don't necessarily put NOOSE above them, but it's sure as hell more impressive to take out numerous armored NOOSE units as opposed to a few merryweather mercs without any protection.

Good point, but there is still nothing to say just how experienced every single one of those ex-soldiers is.

Which mission are referring to? I'll assume the last one. If so, they all took out Merryweather on their own, on their own sides of the area.
EOG Frank was so skilled, that Mike and Trevor wanted him to start the ambush.

I was referring to the paleto score.

Never mind that both Michael and Trevor can start the ambush, but I don't see how that's a testament to his skill. The first shot was kind of fated to land because the FIB team had no idea where they were.

He was Killing noose with Lamar outside.
Franklin >>>>>>>> Lamar
Or are you talking bout Paleto?
If so, he did kill several soldiers on the way to pick them up, remember?

I was talking about paleto, yee.
And again,

There's nothing to indicate that he actually shot any on the way over to M and T

Lol really?

Yes, really.

So you admit Frank is a better shot?
As ranged accuracy can translate to close range accuracy.
That's a wincon, bro.

No, I'm just acknowledging that Franklin seems to have more feats with sniper rifles. Off of the top of my head I can only think of Luis taking down some snipers that Ray Bulgarin sent after him (though that feat would still make it a close one no matter who takes it).

It would be tough for him to do that when he's getting pinned down by continuous fire from a G36 With a 100 round drum. Or while suffering the effects of tear gas

Luis can easily pin Frank down as well which would prevent him from meaningfully setting up the area with tear gas. Honestly I recall it being kinda weak anyways but that's probably just my memory playing tricks on me. Regardless Luis can just change cover.

No, not meaningless. This is a close range fight. And tackling Luis wouldn't exactly be out of character for Franklin.

He's literally never done that??? He's only BEEN tackled once when saving Michael from the triads.

Yeah I remember the M249 From TBOGT.

Franklin's has a scope and a grip which will help him when it comes to accuracy, while Luis' M249 is bare.

Franklin's M249 (or whatever the hell it was supposed to be as it has a M60 stock, GTA V Weapons were weird) > Luis' M249

Not too that's the only LMG Luis has. Franklin has a PKM along with that.

Franklin's LMG has a scope and a grip whereas Luis' LMG has mags that hold twice as many rounds. Both have their advantages, though Franklin's is probably superior for this fight.

I remember that golden Uzi. One of my favorite weapons in the series. Franklin has an SMG just like that with a scope and grip. Along with his others the MP5 and Tec9 and the (MPX?) and the P90 looking one. They all have 60 rounds extendos and grips and shit like that.

Nah, Frank doesn't have an SMG just like that - the Golden SMG's rate of fire is far higher than that of Franklin's SMG's. It's recoil is also lower than that of other SMGs which helps with accuracy.

Pretty much the only feat you keep bringing up is the chopper one.

Franklin Killing a whole team of government agents in a difficult to see, burning building, with declining oxygen levels, all by himself, right after being knocked out in an explosion, should be talked about a lil bit more, here.

I don't think that feat should be labelled as the 'chopper one' because he didn't just take down attack helicopters, he also took down a lot of armored NOOSE units that were trying to ambush him. There's also him taking down the Bulgarin Bratva, which I have brought up a few times already. Hell, we can also use him taking down even more of Bulgarin's men when they ambushed him as I have mentioned above.

It was difficult to see for those government agents as well. Those conditions applied to them too, although debatably to a slightly lesser degree than for Franklin.



This has been a good debate, but I think I'd like to call it quits here as well at this point. I feel like this would continue to go in circles and neither of us will change their mind.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Uhhh as an example things like driving into the military base and holding off armies of soldiers when Michael was implying that Franklin wouldn't make it in the chicken factory if he didn't stay behind

Ahhh, yes, the game totally doesn't have you singlehandedly break into a Military base to steal a chopper, or stealing a military convoy with juggernaut suits. In fact he simply told Franklin to stay in front of him because he was the only one without Armor (Which originally he was supposed to have)

Help or not, he still killed several soldiers.

I've seen videos of RDR2's fist fights and dude, that shit looks amazing.

I like the style itself. And how Heavy their blows feel.

There's nothing to say that he actually took out any of them before he got the bulldozer, otherwise he'd have been chased by them.

I didn't say that. I said he killed a bunch of them inside it. They were still able to hit him, BTW.

don't necessarily put NOOSE above them, but it's sure as hell more impressive to take out numerous armored NOOSE units as opposed to a few merryweather mercs without any protection.

Merryweather has the same armor. Lol. Bruh, aight now you getting outrageous.

The armor noose wears, in real life could probably be defeated by a rifle caliber round, and every protagonist has those. In game you take them out the same with a pistol. In both Games.

Killing SWAT teams is Part of GTA.

Yes, really

This didn't make sense. So he wouldn't know what gun to choose? Even though when you aim at them they all pull out a LMG which should tell you they have no problem using their best weapons

No, I'm just acknowledging that Franklin seems to have more feats with sniper rifles

Which is another wincon. This starts at close range, but if possible, they can gain distance.

He's literally never done that??

Yes he has when he fought Michael. But I'll stop since that ain't canon.

Franklin's LMG has a scope and a grip whereas Luis' LMG has mags that hold twice as many rounds

Franklin has a 200 round drum, just like Luis.

Nah, Frank doesn't have an SMG just like that - the Golden SMG's rate of fire is far higher than that of Franklin's SMG's

The Assault SMG seems to have a similar rate of fire.

he also took down a lot of armored NOOSE units that were trying to ambush him

One thing that bugs me Is that you keep saying "armored Noose units" all NOOSE are armored lol. But again, that's just the Convo we were having earlier.

There's also him taking down the Bulgarin Bratva, which I have brought up a few times already. Hell, we can also use him taking down even more of Bulgarin's men when they ambushed him as I have mentioned above.

What are feats from Ray Bulgarin's mob again?

It was difficult to see for those government agents as well. Those conditions applied to them too, although debatably to a slightly lesser degree than for Franklin.

Which also speaks for their skill as they were still tagging Franklin. And he still killed them all.

So all in all, a good skill feat.

This has been a good debate, but I think I'd like to call it quits here as well at this point. I feel like this would continue to go in circles and neither of us will change their mind.

Yeah it's been great talking with you. A very interesting debate this has been.

 

[Schwxnz]

What are feats from Ray Bulgarin's mob again?

Bulgarin's connections were so great within Europe that Niko Bellic preferred joining the merchant navy in order to escape Bulgarin's influence as opposed to just killing him. Admittedly, it was stated that his influence was not yet as strong in America, it still stands to reason that a mafia boss with such strong connections has henchmen that are highly skilled individuals.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

it still stands to reason that a mafia boss with such strong connections has henchmen that are highly skilled individuals

I know you're getting tired of debating this, so you don't have to reply back if you don't want to, of course, but honestly, this is what you were telling me about Merryweather.
About how there's nothing to suggest they all have experience in wars, this is that same assumption. What is there to suggest all his shooters are highly skilled?

Admittedly, it was stated that his influence was not yet as strong in America,

Especially when you already have this.


Bulgarin had a really vast criminal empire, kinda like a cartel. But that's really it. Head to 1:10 because even this random dialogue supports a good portion of Merryweather have been overseas in combat zones. I haven't watched that full video so there's probably more.

They ain't like, say, the CJNG, who have military grade weapons and vehicles, along with training from Mercs.

He had quantity. Not quality.

Same video, 2:30 this one changes everything.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

7:08....

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

9:00.....

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I know you're getting tired of debating this, so you don't have to reply back if you don't want to, of course, but honestly, this is what you were telling me about Merryweather.
About how there's nothing to suggest they all have experience in wars, this is that same assumption. What is there to suggest all his shooters are highly skilled?

You have me in at least 9 days, I'm diversifing from my IRL verse contributions since this is a fictional character indexing wiki.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

.......huh?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

.......huh?

What part do you not get from the last message from me?

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Everything. What the **** are you talking about? Lol are you saying you're leaving the wiki? It was just a random ass reply to me lol

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Everything. What the **** are you talking about? Lol are you saying you're leaving the wiki? It was just a random ass reply to me lol

I do have time today to reply, not sure about me being very active/contributing up until the 20th of June since I'll be in vacation with my family.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

& plus I don't want all of my contributions to be in the real world verse.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Oh ok lol if you don't mind me asking where are you going

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Oh ok lol if you don't mind me asking where are you going

Jamaica

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Whagwan Bombaaclot. Lol. Have fun dude

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump.

I'm back!
I've read up on Luis, Niko, the Bulgarin Crime Syndicate & Franklin.

The best thing Franklin has done on his own that I know of was dealing with one of Los Santos's dominant gangs (The Triads). Much of the more dangerous people he's dealt with was in a team effort with Trevor & Michael, though I would like to see canon feats of him dealing with people more dangerous than the Bulgarin summarized & presented here. GTA V & Online take place much later after 2008, so he could have better weapons. The best thing coming from his dura & AP now is surviving getting sent flying by cars (Archived) & that's all I can really say convincing right now.

Luis wiped out a dominant, international/European gang. Assuming Luis is good in H2H as stated here, he seems more likely to win.

FYI, feats & statements individually aren't everything. Context also matters.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Luis wiped out a dominant, international/European gang. Assuming Luis is good in H2H as stated here, he seems more likely to win.

The international European organization had no influence in America and wasn't at it's peak there. And they have no real feats. Franklin directly took out Merryweather, who I in my earlier posts, proved they do have combat experience in various warzones, with them straight up saying it themselves, during the Merryweather Heist. And the player can rampage their base solo with any of the 3 protags

Assuming Luis is good in H2H as stated here, he seems more likely to win.

He's better in H2H, but that won't be much of the fight. Franklin has better melee weapons like an axe, or a machete. Hell, Franklin has a taser.

FYI, feats & statements individually aren't everything. Context also matters

Context of what? The Merryweather dialogue is what they randomly say, like everyone else in the game.


But I'll put u down for Luis, if that's who u vote

 

[H3110l12345I20]

The international European organization had no influence in America and wasn't at it's peak there. And they have no real feats.

Context like that usually changes arguments & how we perceive feats & statements. I was just going off GTA wiki so hit me up if you spot anything wrong in the articles I've read.
Though it's hard to believe for me that they weren't that powerful considering that the gangs in gta 4 didn't want to get on their bad side.

He's better in H2H, but that won't be much of the fight. Franklin has better melee weapons like an axe, or a machete. Hell, Franklin has a taser.

Good point. Though is Luis able to disarm him from is weapons?

Context of what? The Merryweather dialogue is what they randomly say, like everyone else in the game.

I know, I'm just referring to how feat & statements generally should be analyzed along with context. Falling from a thousand feet ain't impressive if you land on something soft. I think the wiki got his influence info from statements from Niko. Though the profiles both incorporate free-roam & cutscenes info (like the protags special abilities) so...

And the player can rampage their base solo with any of the 3 protags

Knowing that you can solo the military fort & merryweather base in-game, I'm inclined to believe you. A regional gang against a group of soldiers who fought wars, the latter is more impressive since war abroad is going to be more intense than a gang shoot out.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Though it's hard to believe for me that they weren't that powerful considering that the gangs in gta 4 didn't want to get on their bad side.

The other gangs in GTA 4 didn't have as many members as the bulgarin mob. Quantity over quality. It's a big stretch to assume that Ray Bulgarin had top guns working with him, when there's no statements or evidence for that, he just had a lot of randoms.

Good point. Though is Luis able to disarm him from is weapons?

You can disarm Knives and bats in GTA IV, but since Machetes and Axes aren't in the game, it's kinda hard to say if he could.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Hmm, for now I think the arguments from Luis work better. Voting him

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Question, is the part where Franklin can solo a military base valid, or nah? We have their special abilities on their profiles & they can beat cattle to death in free roam.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Yeah it's valid for them All

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Franklin FRA

 

[Peppersalt43]

Change my vote to Frank

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Good Boi

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Good Boi

I mean, Franklin is able to solo a Merryweather base in game.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Yup

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Bummmmpp

 

[Peppersalt43]

bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Bump

 

[koopa3144]

frank FRA

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Bump Bump