Force and Energy Relationship with Attack Potency.

[XING06]

In a versus battle with low 9 tiers, what should we do about the relationship between force and energy? For instance a boxer's punch produces more energy, but generally a baseball bat would do more actual damage because it is harder so it can apply more force (up to 8000 lbs - wall level if it can be generated in a foot). Would we be able to say that a baseball bat actually can damage wall level characters?

 

[FanofRPGs]

I agree that this is a problem our wiki experiences due to how we work. And my answer is... Ignore the AP Chart, and just go by what the force and the durability of the object has. We need to find a better method at measuring this stuff, but at the time being that's my suggestion.

 

[XING06]

OK thanks a lot for the clarification!

 

[Antvasima]

It is a problem, yes, but I do not know what to do about it.

 

[FanofRPGs]

It is a problem, yes, but I do not know what to do about it.

I would suggest that for lower characters or weapons, if they measure everything by force. We could add a "Force Potency Statistic" which writes in the level of force when. Best choice for now, and I could make a scale on it perhaps.

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies, but the problem is that it would constitute an enormous amount of work to change our overall wiki standards in this manner and apply it after searching through 13000 profiles, which would be extremely hard to figure out how to do for every case.

We also already have some very important prioritised wiki projects that do not seem to get done.

 

[RageComment]

I have been looking into this for the past few days, and it is giving me a headache. One would think that medical study of the human body would given us a bunch of data on how the body performs. But I can't even find stats for the average amount of energy or force that humans can output with their arms and legs.

 

[FanofRPGs]

My apologies, but the problem is that it would constitute an enormous amount of work to change our overall wiki standards in this manner and apply it after searching through 13000 profiles, which would be extremely hard to figure out how to do for every case.
We also already have some very important prioritised wiki projects that do not seem to get done.

Hence I said for lower stuff. Like a baseball bat, or boxer, or the like. There, that statistic is actually important and is actually more used than a joule number in the real world. In fact, real scientists probably look at us weird using joule numbers for a lot of stuff when dealing with meelee weapons or real life things or the like.

 

[RageComment]

I doubt real scientist look or care about vsbattles...

But I do think Calculating force would be nice, but ultimately a really troublesome project. It would be useful, but before anything could go anywhere you'd need a lot of support and help ready. Else it would just be a project to be put on the back burner.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that you could start a calc group forum discussion about it, and invite DontTalkDT to participate.

 

[Antvasima]

However, it would likely be a too complicated system for our purposes.

 

[RageComment]

I think what would be better would be coming up with a single page about force where you could have a chart or something that lists some equivilent energies to forces or something.

 

[GenesisHero12]

Yeah, I would be nice to have a page like that because MMA fighters/boxers can punch around 800 to 2500 pounds of force and kick around 1000 to 4800 pounds of force. For average Humans would be some where below 800 pounds of force. I got the numbers from the linked site from the composite human page and I guessed for the low-end and average human numbers.

 

[XING06]

@ GenesisHero

Actually, most studies concur that a punch from a boxer goes anywhere from 500-1400 lbf at most. A regular human punch from an untrained person doesn't make use of kinetic chain (its a term my teacher uses which is how we were taught to throw our "body weight" or all the muscles in our body in a synchronized motion to add power) so they get anywhere from 40-200 lbf.

 

[FanofRPGs]

So, maybe it starts like this:

'Human 'level: 40-200 lb

Athletic Human level: 200-500 lb

Peak Human level: 500-1400 lb

Superhuman level: 1400 lb to IDK (Maybe the peak biting force of the strongest animal to represent the highest number for life usually)

 

[Antvasima]

It still seems to be too complicated for our purposes to add an extra system for the attack potency, and to require too massive revisions. Sorry.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It still seems to be too complicated for our purposes to add an extra system for the attack potency, and to require too massive revisions. Sorry.

I agree. The required dedication for it is too much, and the gain too small. And it'd just become confusing to new users.

 

[AguilaR101]

I agree with Ant and Matt.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Although it is kinda odd that a bullet carries less energy than a good kick, when it is obvious one is more devastating to the body than the other, that is just kinda how it has to go. Such a major implementation would have needed to be done in the early days of the Wiki. With over 10,000 pages here, this isn't a plausible option.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, it isn't really worth it. People love to use bullets as an example, but you'd only have to be about 8-B to be completely, 100% bulletproof regardless of the piercing properties.

 

[Antvasima]

So, should we close this thread?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I agree with Matthew and Ant, there are obviously different categories of damage via force, slashing, piercing, heat, cold, ect as well as attacks that negate durability for example, but it's too complicated to go into too much detail. So it's best to keep the tiering system the way it is and close the thread?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Just note it on profile that it applies too, like we usually say ________ , ignores conventional durability with ________.


If someone has a piercing attack or something do the same. Just note it when it matters .

 

[Antvasima]

@J-Man

I think that we already tend to do so at times (such as with Wolverine), but should probably do it more frequently.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Yeah, but like, how to convert force into AP?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. DontTalk is probably our most competent member when it comes to these kind of issues.

 

[RageComment]

I don't think adding a single page that references force (Just like there is a page that references reaction time in terms of seconds and milliseconds and so forth) would dramatically affect the wiki at all. But would add value for those who wish to look for that information.

 

[GenesisHero12]

I think creating a separate force page would help scale the real world page better because the stats we have for composite human kind of confuses people and isn't true to what humans can do. If someone what to figure out how powerful someone is to scale or themselves, people would be confused because humans don't properly scale to most of these stats pages, which was mostly created for fictional character. Humans can output more energy at less speed and can't show a destruction feat like MMA fighters/ boxers. They output street level energy but, they can break bricks or wood that would be for people who use breaking objects skill martial arts like karate.It would confuse people to think they are street level just because they output the energy to be on that level and then they find out they can break anything meaning but dent metal a little which they are athlete level or could be low-end street level. They wouldn't know which Ap stat they would be then because they show only one or more feats for being street level like busting a shed wall and denting metal a little but, not breaking bricks/boards or cracking a wall which is athlete level. Also if they can't knock someone out they would think they are normal human level. It would be crazy to have someone say I kick/punch a superhuman speed and have normal human ap because I can't knock someone out but, I can bust shed walls or dent metal a little. Having this page would help scale at least the real world page since the real-life scales differently then fiction does because if a human was able to output energy greater than 2000 joules like 2 gigajoules but, they only show an athlete human ap feat we wouldn't say they are building level. Unlike fiction, we would accept it or we use it to scale with their other feat to get their accurate Ap.

 

[Antvasima]

@RageComment

I suppose that you have a point. I am just worried about wiki-spanning revisions. Perhaps the calc group and DontTalkDT could discuss it in their forum?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, the thing is, the difference between blunt and piercing durability really isn't that big in real life to be worth making a separate page, and fiction either completely overrates it (4-Bs getting pierced by bullets), or more often than not completely ignores it.

We aren't a JRPG. We can't suddenly start splitting durability into stuff like "Blunt Durability, Cutting Durability, Piercing Durability, Heat Durability, Cold Durability".

It would simply make pages too cluttered and it is not worth the effort, as it is quite easy to determine these things on your own given scans and context.

 

[GenesisHero12]

What I put above I stated that this would help scale the real world page better and help people know their own strength better. In real life, people can do a street level feat but can't do an athlete level feat like knocking someone out. It would be confusing to not use it for the real world because anyone can say their street level based on one feat or even the energy they output they that they did but, can't do a feat on the level below it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

I agree. Should we close this thread?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think so.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.