Flickering the Lights in Glass' House (Castlevania Downgrades, 1/???)

[Topaz404]

I feel like this one was only a matter of time, really. I’m aware Ultima beat me to the punch on these downgrades, but he works too slow for my liking so I’m here to kick these downgrades into overdrive. This will be part 1 of a very, very long series covering this verse.

Resistance to Technology Manipulation [Belmont Bloodline/Creatures of Chaos]

The Belmonts can resist technology manipulation, because they’re not affected by the castle disturbing satellite images. Satellite images are, for the record, not something any Castlevania protagonist has used or will ever use. I don’t think any of the enemies use them, either, so their resistance gets nuked as well. Most of the games take place centuries before modern technology was ever a thing, anyways.

Enhanced Senses [Belmont Bloodline]

Shadows in Lament of Innocence can surround themselves in an aura of darkness, making themselves invisible. The page claims that the Belmonts can innately see through this shroud, but there is no indication of this; At the very least, we know Trevor can’t see them since they appear invisible from his perspective (when playing as him in Lament of Innocence). He can, however, “see” them whenever their aura disappears for a brief moment, or by looking at their reflections in the floor, neither of which require enhanced senses. Also, the Phantom’s eyes are constantly glowing red, so much so that even I can see through their “invisibility”.

Resistance to Dream Manipulation [Belmont Bloodline]

Succubi can invade men’s dreams. As far as I am aware, the Belmonts have never fought a succubus while asleep, though I would very much like to see a video of that if it exists. We also never see succubi use this dream invasion in combat, so I’m struggling to think of a scenario where it would need to be “resisted” in any of the games.

Healing [Mid-Low] [Belmont Bloodline]

In Lament of Innocence, Trevor can use the Saisei Incense item to gradually restore his health. This item only appears in Lament of Innocence, which means I’m fairly certain Trevor is the only Belmont to have used this item. You have to do some insane stretching to extrapolate an item that one character has used in one game into an innate magic power that nearly every protagonist in the series has access to. This should be moved to Trevor’s profile, as an item and not as an innate technique.

Soul Manipulation [General Chaos Magic]

Magic in Castlevania can innately harm the soul for a variety of different reasons. No less than 8 scans means the basis for this ability must be pretty sound, right? Let’s go through those scans one by one to see how valid they really are.

• A character named Magnus can utilize spiritual attacks using his claws.

You could maybe split hairs over whether or not a “spiritual attack” innately harms the soul, but let’s sidestep that for now and say this is 100% valid and Magnus can indeed harm the soul with his claws. The problem is that there is no reason why every single magic user in the series scales to this one guy who can attack the soul.

• Soma Cruz’s soul and Dracula’s power are one and the same.

This is cool and all, but this isn’t soulhax. There is no reason why this connection between Soma and Dracula would lead to magic harming the soul, nor is there a reason why everyone would scale to this when Soma’s connection to Dracula isn’t something everybody has access to.

• Imps can create spaces that inflict spiritual damage.

Again, this is fine, and I’m willing to overlook the possibility that this isn’t even soulhax, but why is everyone being scaled to something only imps have been shown to do? This isn’t a case where the scans showcase a number of different monsters to show that this is consistent amongst them; It’s just the imp. Is there any reason why every magic user should have access to every imp’s powers?

• Magnus casts a spell which should have destroyed the target’s soul.

Again with this Magnus ************. I’m aware that some characters would have his powers anyways by virtue of having all the verse powers, but as far as I’m aware, that doesn’t apply to literally everyone who can use magic.

• ???

This scan doesn’t even mention the soul.

• The deeper the darkness of one’s soul, the more powerful their magic becomes.

Finally, an actual connection between magic and the soul. However, this also isn’t soulhax. A person’s soul being the power source for their abilities doesn’t mean they can harm the soul; Frankly, I shouldn’t even need to explain this, because the logic of “having an energy source means all of your attacks can harm that energy source” is fundamentally baseless. Goku doesn’t blow up people’s ki reserves because he uses ki, for example. So while you could probably draw some sort of connection between magic and the soul based on this scan, that connection certainly isn’t “all magic can blow up the soul”.

As you can see, the connections between magic and the soul are tenuous at best, with one (1) character and one (1) common enemy type having soulhax being the entire basis for every character harming the soul with their basic attacks. Naturally, resistance to soul manipulation should also be removed from the relevant pages, unless the page in question has another justification.

Self-Sustenance [Type 2]

Magnus doesn’t strictly need to drink blood, but he does it for pleasure anyways. This isn’t really a blanket statement confirming that monsters never need to eat anything at all, especially since most living things also don’t need to drink blood. Hell, even humans don’t need to drink blood, but some of them do it for pleasure anyways (or so I’m told, imagine being the kind of freak that’s into that haha).

Resistance to Ice Manipulation & Absolute Zero [Creatures of Chaos]

One of the scans included shows a bunch of monsters being casually oneshot by ice magic, so uh. That’s probably not a great sign. Additionally, two people using AZ magic and a single ring having “Absolute Zero” in the name is not evidence of all ice magic being absolute zero. As far as I can tell, no enemies have ever resisted attacks from any of the characters who have AZ magic, although the Belmont Bloodline can keep its resistance if any Belmonts have fought against the Frost Demon enemy.

Immortality & Regeneration Negation [Creatures of Chaos]

The sole justification for all monsters being able to negate each other’s immortality is this character, Lucy, who claims that she was not born with an innate talent for destroying the creatures of chaos like those around her were. Now, Lucy is not a creature of chaos, and a brief wiki dive shows that her family certainly isn’t either (in fact, they seem quite dedicated to killing creatures of chaos). So uh… why would creatures of chaos scale to a family of exorcists, who are humans, who specialize in anti-chaos magic, who fight creatures of chaos so much that it has quite literally become their family reputation to the point where a family member who isn’t killing monsters is seen as a black sheep?

Oh, and that ignores the more obvious issue, which is that this entire scene has nothing to do with immortality. While Lucy’s initial statement about simply not being able to destroy monsters could be seen as referring to their immortality, she later clarifies that this is actually due to her lacking the power necessary to kill them. This makes sense, of course - Creatures of chaos are far deadlier than any ordinary human, which is why the Belmonts are explicitly superhuman. Thus, even if monsters aren’t immortal (or even if Lucy did have a way to negate their immortality), Lucy’s statement would still apply because of the substantial gap in power.

Life Manipulation [Death/Count Olrox]

This scan is being misinterpreted. It’s not saying that Death’s magic absorbs the lifeforce from anyone nearby, it’s saying that a regular human who stood in the epicenter of a magical vortex would lose their life. That’s “lose their life” as in “die”, to be clear. Anybody with resistance to life manipulation via resisting Death’s magic should also lose their resistance.

Paralysis Inducement [Death/Count Olrox]

Page claims that Death’s magic can paralyze people.
Attached scan shows someone easily moving after being exposed to Death’s magic.

A real brain buster, this one is.

Incorporeality [Death]

This is intangibility. Not incorporeality.

Resistance to Immortality Negation [Death]

Death is immortal because he can return as the concept of death. Fair enough. He also resists having that immortality negated because… he can return as the concept of death. I shouldn’t need to explain that simply being immortal is not a justification for resisting the negation of that immortality.

Non-Physical Interaction [A Lot of People]

This will remove some, but not all of the NPI justifications spread across various pages. Starting with elemental intangibility, the slime enemy absolutely does not count. “Gel” is not non-physical; I can interact with any kind of gel, ranging from Jell-o to shaving gel, because that’s not something that requires some sort of special magic. On a related note is the claim that everyone can harm characters that can phase through walls, but not only is there no source for this, but the phasing in question is a technique that only works on specific walls; So just harming the character in general isn’t good enough. For NEP, this stems from the purported ability to harm Navigators, which have been freed from the concepts of time and existence. One problem - Navigators are never fought at any point in the series. There is no mechanism in the game that allows the player to “interact” with a Navigator in a way that would constitute NPI.

Oh, and for what it’s worth, the Navigators shouldn’t have aspect type 1 or 3 NEP. There’s no indication that they lack minds or souls; We have different categories of NEP for a reason, you know.

(Disclaimer stuff. I have not written up this thread myself- but it is from Fuji. I am simply here to tally votes and maybe put in my two cents (big maybe). I have asked Ant to post this, and he said it was fine. Proof is added here, if you doubt me. Thank you!)

AGREE (6): TheGreatBanana, Da3ggman (neutral on Soul Manip, agree on everything else), Dark_Soul20189, Astral_Trinity439, Tllmbrg, Setsuna_tenma
DISAGREE (3): SYPHe5D, DarkDragonMedeus, Theglassman12
NEUTRAL (0):

 

[TheGreatBanana]

Not that familiar with the Castelvania series [besides the Netflix adaptation], but this looks pretty imo, I agree.

 

[Theglassman12]

Disclaimer stuff. I have not written up this thread myself- but it is from Fuji.

You do know this is violating Proxy rules right? If you're parroting someone else's words that's banned already you're basically helping them bypass a Ban they're serving, which is a rule violation.

• Using other members to circumvent bans or topic bans is prohibited. This includes sending unblocked members your arguments to secretly post in our forum on your behalf. Doing so may lead to an extension of your punishment, and a punishment may also be applied to that proxy member(s) who conveyed your arguments. Exceptions can be given for posting genuinely helpful revisions while openly admitting where they came from, but this needs to be evaluated by our staff before any arguments are posted.

Also appreciate the fact that researching Lament of Innocence's scans is not enough to distinguish the difference between Leon and Trevor Belmont, apparently they're always the same person.

 

[Crabwhale]

• Using other members to circumvent bans or topic bans is prohibited. This includes sending unblocked members your arguments to secretly post in our forum on your behalf. Doing so may lead to an extension of your punishment, and a punishment may also be applied to that proxy member(s) who conveyed your arguments. Exceptions can be given for posting genuinely helpful revisions while openly admitting where they came from, but this needs to be evaluated by our staff before any arguments are posted.

Keyword there being "secret". The OP is putting the fact that these arguments are not theirs front and center. Whether this is valid concerning the second half of the rule, is up to us to decide.

I personally have no stake in this either way, so I'm neutral on it.

 

[LiveElvinClive]

Agree with what OP posted

 

[Topaz404]

I have asked Ant to post this, and he said it was fine. Proof is added here, if you doubt me. Thank you!)

But i literally have proof of asking Ant to post this? Sure, it couldve made the link more obvious, but i got it- i could even ask him to confirm that yes, i did ask and got greenlit? What more could ya ask for?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Crabwhale You're still bypassing a ban by having someone parrot your own words while you're not allowed on the site. If this is allowed then I'd seriously have to question why the **** even bother with the Proxy rules if people can just ignore them despite the fact their punishment is to not be involved on the site.

@Topaz404 I could ask you to argue for your own sake and not just copying someone else's words if you want to downgrade a series, making a thread to downgrade something isn't an issue, making a thread to help a banned member get around the ban time is where I have issues.

 

[Shmooply]

The age of Dracula is OVER. The time for Nosferatu is NOW.

 

[Topaz404]

@Topaz404 I could ask you to argue for your own sake and not just copying someone else's words if you want to downgrade a series, making a thread to downgrade something isn't an issue, making a thread to help a banned member get around the ban time is where I have issues.

Hey, i havent been on this site much at all for a while- so i may be out of the loop of some things (and for that- apologies), but if im not mistaken, i havent seen any changes to the whole proxy rule thing at all. As far i know, it's fine as long as the user isnt using it to just be hostile to other users (and it is constructive in some way)

From what i can see, the CRT is both
-Constructive, going over what needs to be changed and even showing scans of such
-No hostilities or anything of the sort is present

By this logic, this should be fine, no?

(Quick thing, i looked around and found this, reading "Exceptions can be given for posting genuinely helpful revisions while openly admitting where they came from, but this needs to be evaluated by our staff before any arguments are posted.")
Would this not give some credit?

 

[Da3ggman]

• Using other members to circumvent bans or topic bans is prohibited. This includes sending unblocked members your arguments to secretly post in our forum on your behalf. Doing so may lead to an extension of your punishment, and a punishment may also be applied to that proxy member(s) who conveyed your arguments. Exceptions can be given for posting genuinely helpful revisions while openly admitting where they came from, but this needs to be evaluated by our staff before any arguments are posted.

Regardless of whether or not it’s decided that this CRT isn’t valid because it’s from a permabanned user (Fuji), it seems fairly obvious that Topaz followed the rules for this type of situation:

1. He made it explicitly clear who and were he got the arguments, scans, and text from, thus qualifying as “openly admitting”.

2. He got explicit permission from Ant to post the CRT while informing him of its contents and writer, thus qualifying for it being “evaluated by staff”.

Regarding the actual contents of the CRT itself, the explanations seem fairly obvious with the exception of Soul Manipulation; I’ll stay neutral on that.

 

[Topaz404]

Regarding the actual contents of the CRT itself, the explanations seem fairly obvious with the exception of Soul Manipulation; I’ll stay neutral on that.

So, you'd be agreeing with everything, but neutral on the soul manip stuff?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Topaz404 The whole point of Proxy rules is to stop people that are banned from using others to parrot their words as if they weren't banned at all. If anyone can do this for the guise of "oh it's for productive sakes" ignoring that they're banned for a reason, then it makes the entire rule meaningless.

Either way I'll tackle the thread in a bit.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

@Topaz404 The whole point of Proxy rules is to stop people that are banned from using others to parrot their words as if they weren't banned at all. If anyone can do this for the guise of "oh it's for productive sakes" ignoring that they're banned for a reason, then it makes the entire rule meaningless.

It stops banned users from posting on General & Versus Discussions and such, there's the whole needing to be approved by staff before being posted requirement too.

 

[Da3ggman]

So, you'd be agreeing with everything, but neutral on the soul manip stuff?

Yes, that’s correct.

 

[Topaz404]

@Topaz404 The whole point of Proxy rules is to stop people that are banned from using others to parrot their words as if they weren't banned at all. If anyone can do this for the guise of "oh it's for productive sakes" ignoring that they're banned for a reason, then it makes the entire rule meaningless.

Either way I'll tackle the thread in a bit.

Look, im just going to say this outright. I am only here to post the thread and count the votes- i have done what i can to make sure that i have followed the rules to the best of my ability, and if needed, we can contact other staff members. However, i will only say this once more

I have contacted Ant about this and got the greenlight (and provided proof of it)
And i have been honest about where i got everything and where it's from

Im sure someone will be here to debate with you soon, but it will not be me. I will simply tally the votes- that is all

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

So, what I am getting at, instead of arguing against the CRT points, it was instantly focused on trying to point at some rules being broken?

This was done with the user having even direct permission from @Antvasima and had proof of that, and not going against any rules...

Either way, All the points look good, And I agree fully with the CRT.

 

[TurtleGod55]

Tell Fuji I said Touch Grass

 

[Chariot190]

Some of this looks fine, we wouldn't treat it like that for any other verse, unless there's a secret reason that isn't explained anywhere, but in that case, kinda needs to be explained on profiles.

Though they should keep resistance to soul shit, it isn't like they die to a imp. And obviously Dracula/Soma would keep it in general.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Seems fine, and seeing no actual counter argument being made against the op, for now at least, I agree with everything.

 

[Topaz404]

Some of this looks fine, we wouldn't treat it like that for any other verse, unless there's a secret reason that isn't explained anywhere, but in that case, kinda needs to be explained on profiles.

Though they should keep resistance to soul shit, it isn't like they die to a imp. And obviously Dracula/Soma would keep it in general.

So you wish to cast a vote, or save it until some more arguments are made?

Seems fine, and seeing no actual counter argument being made against the op, for now at least, I agree with everything.

Very well, vote counted

 

[Chariot190]

So you wish to cast a vote, or save it until some more arguments are made?

I'll wait a bit even if some of it is like, kinda obvious, like the tech shit is pretty odd ngl, idk why we would list that, but disagree with removing soul slop (At least resistance to it, and from Soma/Drac).

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Though they should keep resistance to soul shit, it isn't like they die to a imp.

If they have stuff that makes them take less damage from the imp, ye.
You can hit a soul in more ways than just instantly destroying it.

 

[Theglassman12]

Anyways to tackle this thread.

Technology resistance there's literally items that characters like Jonathan and Charlotte have like the Eye for Decay, which is literally a scouter designed to track invisible walls, there's fact items like a neutron bomb that existed in the 17th century is a thing (so this whole "Castlevania is before modern day" argument means nothing when Neutron bombs existed back then in the series), alongside Positron gun that Soma can use, and all of these can still work in the hands of the heroes despite being in the influence of the castle. So yeah I'd argue the technology resistance should stay if they're able to have their own technology not get messed up by the castle's powers.

What part of "I can see them" is in anyway a debunk of the lore description of these monsters being invisible? Like wow, congratulations you somehow have more authority on how invisible they are than the developers and writers. None of that debunks the fact that their bestiary literally states they cannot be seen by the naked eye, and Leon (not Trevor btw) doesn't wear any specific goggles to see these monsters, he just can and can find their locations to attack. That's as straightforward as you can get, especially when the whole gimmick of the creature is that the naked eye cannot be able to see them and the belmonts are built different from other humans.

The belmonts don't need to face them when sleeping when Incubus, the male equivalent of succubus, can be able to invade your dreams and mind to make you see and do things you don't like, as evident with what Magnus tries to do with Alucard while the latter is clearly awake. Plus the fact that Leon has faced off a Succubus before and was able to see through her spells would allow any of the Belmonts in general to resist them. Plus dark/chaos magic in general can corrupt an individual and make them see endless nightmares from their usage of it, and characters like Trevor and Simon can use Darkness infused weapons and are fine given the fact belmonts in general can fight off dark magic.

Again, Leon, not Trevor, also also the entire point with Leon's war he started with Dracula is he had his entire bloodline get ready for the battle against darkness, and all of the new items he received including magic that lets him do item crashes that he wasn't familiar with, but became common place for other belmonts who can naturally do item crashes would lead to believe at least some of these items carried over from generation to generation to help them with the fight, so something like the Saisei item wouldn't just be a Leon exclusive thing and would've been passed down to other belmonts to let them know of their knowledge.

I love how this entire individual breakdown just ignores the most blatant part of soul hax and magic being tied together, which is the fact that the imp's ability to attack at a spiritual level is literally shown in the game to attack your magic. Literally why did you ignore the description on what's happening when the Imp is dealing "spiritual damage", though I'd love to see what part of "spiritual damage" has no correlation whatsoever to soul hax when it's attacking your spirit. This entire tirade you're just ignoring the most on the nose descriptions of these abilities to push, plus the entire point with UES for Castlevania is that one's magic power and soul is tied, Dracula's Soul and magic being one and the same is on the nose with how it even functions, so if you wanna nuke soul hax from magic, you're gonna need to get change the UES of castlevania, because none of this is tackling the big arguments that allow this to be commonplace. Plus Grimoire of Souls has so many weapons that have numerous statements of having magical powers, or having a person or monster's soul tied to the weapon and it amps the magical power of the wielder.

Yeah what part of humans drinking blood for pleasure have anything to do with this? Especially when we're talking about stuff like Succubus, Incubus and vampires who normally are hungry for the blood and souls of humans, but Magnus just flat out said they don't need to eat them to survive? If they don't need food to survive that's textbook self-sustenance, especially when there's no real anti feats for monsters needing to eat or they'd starve to death.

The "bunch of monsters" is one random werewolf, which isn't a top tier creature like Carmilla or Death who can withstand these kinds of attacks like it's nothing. Also yeah that guy who "made absolute zero magic" only got it from Magnus, who's a creature of chaos and he was unfazed by it in the scene the dude uses absolute zero in the first place. Plus Richter literally sees this and essentially taunts them for using an amateur way to kill them, almost like absolute zero spells are common ground in the series.

Creatures of chaos scale because you literally can have them as summons and they kill other creatures of chaos too, Death, Magnus and many other creatures in the series can kill each other and they can actually die from their blows. Lucy's statement is there to show that you literally need the ability to slay monsters and it's not a brute strength thing, it's literally an innate talent to do so in the first place. Also why are you conflating power with strength and not a specific power to kill someone that's immortal in the first place? This is reflected in the games where red skeletons, who's entire gimmick is that they can't normally die, can die to specific powers or weapons as shown in Portrait of Ruins, Curse of Darkness and Dracula X Chronicles. Curse of Darkness especially is you using a lesser creature of chaos to permanently kill red skeletons, so yes immortality negation is a thing that 100% scales to other monsters when they have the ability to do so.

Fine with life manipulation going away for Death, though this wouldn't really change since the cast has other ways of resisting life manipulation.

How is someone being able to move after fighting off the wave of magic that's freezing her in place an anti feat? That doesn't contradict paralysis that's just a feat for the hunter in question.

He's still incorporeal for being an apparition, even if you want to argue the semantics of this being intangible, Death as a being is not a physical creature as he is the concept of death.

He literally doesn't die for good like other people like Joachim or the red skeletons or Brauner. None of the belmonts or the other heroes can permanently end him and he always comes back, so his immortality isn't being negated as it's on a whole nother level, it's as straightforward as it can get.

Slimes are intangible things when fiction in general has these creatures go through any conventional hits and not be harmed, the fact any of the heroes can kill them would imply they're actually directly interacting with them. Going through specific walls doesn't change the fact he's still in the wall and Shanoa just killed him with her glyph magic, which btw is a universal thing that exists in all objects and creatures, again, UES stuff. You wanna nuke this, then try and argue that Glyphs in general isn't a universal concept that exists in the series, because OoE goes out of its way to show that everything and everyone has magical properties via glyphs. Dracula's magic and even Alucard's magic interacts with the Navigators in general, and them being nonexistent is a result of being succumbed to the magic of the castle, the common ghosts in the series also suffer the same influence so they'd just be nonexistent too, and they're able to be harmed directly.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Eden_Warlock99 the imp flat out does spiritual damage and it targets your magic doing so, and creatures of chaos as shown in portrait of ruins can gain both physical and magical resistances, that's one of the reasons for them having magic resistances.

 

[SYPHe5D]

Disagree for Glass’s reasons.

 

[Chariot190]

Technology resistance there's literally items that characters like Jonathan and Charlotte have like the Eye for Decay, which is literally a scouter designed to track invisible walls, there's fact items like a neutron bomb that existed in the 17th century is a thing (so this whole "Castlevania is before modern day" argument means nothing when Neutron bombs existed back then in the series), alongside Positron gun that Soma can use, and all of these can still work in the hands of the heroes despite being in the influence of the castle. So yeah I'd argue the technology resistance should stay if they're able to have their own technology not get messed up by the castle's powers.

Yeah nah that ain't how the wiki works. What you've done, is explain why those specific items should maybe have tech manip res. But not why the characters themselves should.

Chalotte isn't a neutron bomb, Charlotte isn't the EoD, Charlotte isn't the positron gun, etc.
If the castle fails to effect those items, that's a boon for the item, not the character.

This only works if
1. We are told, explicitly, the reason those items function still is due to some intrinsic aspect or protection from the wielder.
2. We also assume the Castle can do anything to begin with.

The feat in question, is just making it so the eclipse couldn't pick the castle up and instead black fog. Why would this stop a bomb? Or why would this stop a gun? It wouldn't, the satellites still function, it's just the image they picked up was altered or obfuscated, and that's assuming it was actually altered and that there wasn't actually fog in play to begin with.

Tech res absolutely doesn't work. At best you can apply it to a few items only and would need to list exactly what has it, but even that's generous because it isn't as if the Castle's tech manip shuts things down or would effect them in a way that would matter, except maybe the EoD if you really wanna stretch it.

As an aside, for resistances to be added, the character in question must actually use said ability on them, just because they have it, and didn't use it, doesn't mean they resist. We need to be shown them actually resisting the slop, that or told it wouldn't work (Or even just "nothing I have would beat them!" or something like that would be fine imo). Presuming resistances ain't allowed even if in theory it makes sense, which while annoying do be the rule.

 

[Theglassman12]

The eclipse isn't the one causing the technology discreptancies, its the castle itself doing the work, they even say that originally it was just a normal eclipse, but the church members (people who know more about the situation with dracula's castle than anyone) are saying its the castle itself doing the work. Also how is the EoD the small exception and not the positron gun? The literal advanced weapons that shoot anti matter at people? Also there's technology based creatures of chaos that either their literal existence is tied to machinery or that their own soul is tied to technology based things like the tin man and persephone's vacuums functioning just fine when being used, and the vacuum especially can be tied to Soma's own power to summon and use the vacuum without it malfunctioning in the castle's presence.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the castle has only been shown to mess with satellite images, which doesn't at all imply it disrupts all technology.

 

[Chariot190]

The eclipse isn't the one causing the technology discreptancies,

Nobody said otherwise.

its the castle itself doing the work,

Nobody said otherwise.

they even say that originally it was just a normal eclipse, but the church members (people who know more about the situation with dracula's castle than anyone) are saying its the castle itself doing the work.

Nobody said otherwise.

Also how is the EoD the small exception and not the positron gun?

Because the EoD is a visual based item.

The literal advanced weapons that shoot anti matter at people?

Yep, the known tech manip has no bearing on it, how or why would making something obscured stop the gun? As said, it isn't like the satellites stopped functioning, they still worked.

Also there's technology based creatures of chaos that either their literal existence is tied to machinery or that their own soul is tied to technology based things like the tin man and persephone's vacuums functioning just fine when being used, and the vacuum especially can be tied to Soma's own power to summon and use the vacuum without it malfunctioning in the castle's presence.

I mean, that's cool, but that effects absolutely nothing.
Honestly, you're moreso giving reasons why tech manip is hyper limited.

The sole feat is that the castle managed to, maybe mind you, the statement doesn't go that in depth, obfuscate an image of itself by showing black fog, and that's it. Why would this effect a nuke? A gun? A vacuum? That's the only feat, and we're being generous as it is with it.

Honestly, I'm more leaning toward it being a perception thing than actual tech manip but it is what it is ig.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Agree with everything in the CRT

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree with ctr

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Eden_Warlock99 the imp flat out does spiritual damage and it targets your magic doing so, and creatures of chaos as shown in portrait of ruins can gain both physical and magical resistances, that's one of the reasons for them having magic resistances.

Basically imps cause spiritual damage, which I understand as causing damage to the target's spirit right? But it's the magic bar that takes the damage, which to me means there's an interconnection between soul and magic.

One more detail is that the magic bar is determined by MP (Mind points)

This is interesting because in a castlevania fax, in a part that is talking about the VP, it is said that mental power makes the weapon stronger. Which by this reasoning could be exchanged for magical and spiritual power. So by this argument, saying "mental power, magical power and spiritual power" would be basically the same thing.

But that's just what I think.

 

[Chariot190]

Basically imps cause spiritual damage, which I understand as causing damage to the target's spirit right? But it's the magic bar that takes the damage, which to me means there's an interconnection between soul and magic.

One more detail is that the magic bar is determined by MP (Mind points)

This is interesting because in a castlevania fax, in a part that is talking about the VP, it is said that mental power makes the weapon stronger. Which by this reasoning could be exchanged for magical and spiritual power. So by this argument, saying "mental power, magical power and spiritual power" would be basically the same thing.

But that's just what I think.

While I fully believe there's a handful of soul slop in the verse you could easily replace this with...

Doesn't this mean they aren't resisting the Imp, as it, ya know, works and drains MP just fine?
Additionally the fact that most enemies don't drain MP with everything ever implicates it isn't a universal attribute outside of fringe cases like the obvious Soma.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with what Glassman is saying

 

[Phsccarvalho]

While I fully believe there's a handful of soul slop in the verse you could easily replace this with...

Doesn't this they aren't resisting the Imp, as it, ya know, works and drains MP just fine?
Additionally the fact that most enemies don't drain MP with everything ever implicates it isn't a universal attribute outside of fringe cases like the obvious Soma.

Even though Imps have this spiritual attack ability declared as something standard for them, from what I remember (obviously I may have the wrong memory) they never affect any protagonist's MP. Not even Soma.

Of course, they paralyze the characters as a result of the attack, but they can break the paralysis.

So if Imps throughout the franchise (Again, from what I remember, I could be wrong) can't cause this kind of damage to the protagonists (just paralyze them, which can be broken), other fodder not demonstrating this kind of thing doesn't seem like an anti feat to me. And yes, a feat for the protagonists who are already top tier in the verse simply resisting the fodder.

There is also a bonus that the Imp is a familiar in some games like SOTN and even with it, it cannot cause MP damage to other creatures. Which also shows the resistance of the creatures.

 

[Chariot190]

Even though Imps have this spiritual attack ability declared as something standard for them, from what I remember (obviously I may have the wrong memory) they never affect any protagonist's MP. Not even Soma.

As below, it isn't exactly astandard thing, we know Imps can attack normally, we know they can attack enemies normally too. It's only in one case where they attack MP of enemies instead of HP. It's something they can do, but they aren't always doing it.

Of course, they paralyze the characters as a result of the attack, but they can break the paralysis.

Do the Imps have feats of effecting others? To be resistance, the thing they break out of has to have showings effecting a 3rd party for longer/worse/etc, otherwise them breaking out isn't inherently resistance, it's just the fact the ability can be broken out of.

So if Imps throughout the franchise (Again, from what I remember, I could be wrong) can't cause this kind of damage to the protagonists (just paralyze them, which can be broken), other fodder not demonstrating this kind of thing doesn't seem like an anti feat to me.

Well, no, we do need reason to scale it to literally everything. It's not even a case of "anti-feat", it's just like, how the wiki works for any verse. Unless it's stated to be a universal property of every attack though if it's universal, it's kind of weird to make specific note of it for a few specific demons?

We also need an example of the soul slop for Imp affecting something nornally so we know the default basis of how it's SUPPOSED to work, from there, we start slapping on resistances if characters endure it better.

But as below, I'm almost 100% sure the Imp simply has two different attacks to begin with, or rather, can effect the soul in different ways.

And yes, a feat for the protagonists who are already top tier in the verse simply resisting the fodder.

Well, as above, we need actual 100% concrete proof. Preferably a statement. Something being fodder can still have abilities that don't universally apply to everything.

There is also a bonus that the Imp is a familiar in some games like SOTN and even with it, it cannot cause MP damage to other creatures. Which also shows the resistance of the creatures.

Looking into this, this goes back to the "abilities must actually be used" deal.
The Imp's spiritual attack isn't passive, it must actively use a specific attack.
This is the attack that causes the player to attack rapidly on repeat.

The Imp can also enable Soma to attack MP instead of HP like the mantle from AoS, this is labled as spiritual based. This also isn't passive though either.

The characters breaking free of the Imp's paralysis is stated to be spiritual which ok, but that doesn't work the way the profile frames it, because it's a non-damaging attack to begin with. It isn't damaging one's soul, it's making it so they spam shit, they can break free, but we 1. Don't know how it'd work on someone without as alleged resistance to compare. 2. That's soul based body control/parahax, not really soul damage stuff.

And we have one glaring problem here.
You argue that because the Imp doesn't MP drain the players, but can enemies, that means the player's must resist it yes? But you also argue that it can do the funny parahax to the player but NOT the enemy demons yes? That to me implicates that we're dealing with two completely different attacks to begin with, and neither actually resist it.
It's obviously not the same attack, if it was why is it doing two completely things against different things?
If the player's have better resistance compared to demon's and that's why they're "only paralyzed", it would stand to reason the demon's with inferior res would be paralyzed too? But if it's the opposite, and the demons have better res hence why they don't get paralyzed, it would stand to reason the players would get MP drained along with paralyzed?
Neither are true though, the Imp is simply doing two different things, in which nobody resists either. The demons, all of whom are affected fine. And the MC's who all get stunned.

This also tells me that, this is an Imp specific thing. Why are NONE of the other demon's doing either? We have a case of an attack being specifically noted to be spiritual, and then doing two things that no demon besides Drac/Soma replicate (In part, a handful would in fact get it too, like the KIller Mantle, but generally speaking).

Idk man, this doesn't work. What you need is a statement saying every demon has soul slop or it scales between. You need an example of the parahax effecting something to compare. We need proof the Imp is even using the MP thing because it's not a passive thing, it has to create the space in which physical damage becomes spiritual damage, it can't do both at the same time (Which is the big issue, 90% of the time it's doing physical damage).

I'd just like, legit argue soul hax for other stuff unles you can find proper feats and statements, off the top of my head I can already think of a few ways to slap it on the protags outside of Imp. Even just them having like 5 fucktrillion mana serves to act as a fromsoft-esque resistance (they have so much of that shit) and some bosses do be immune to stuff like Killer Mantle iirc, among other things.

 

[Theglassman12]

How exactly is it not a standard thing when we have several statements of them doing spiritual damage? The burden of proof is on you that they don’t actually have spiritual damage.

If by effecting others you mean they target spiritual damage, that’s literally the showcase of their power in Dawn of Sorrow where they deal spiritual damage to any normal enemy and them without any proper resistance would just die. Like what’s with this Argument of incredulity fallacy where you need to have it spelled out where the entire UES already has it established that magic and souls are one and the same.

It is a universal property with how the UES is. We have numerous instances of one’s soul or spiritual attacks being tied directly to their magic, and more magic means more strength. You can say that the Imps don’t do this all the time (they do by the description of the guide where their main paralysis thing you have to break out of is stated to be a spiritual attack), but that’s literally part of their lore, especially when other instances like with Magnus’s magic being spiritual attacks in nature and cutting it down made him weaker and he was stated to destroy one’s soul, and the entire point with Dracula’s soul and magic alongside the Grimoire of souls lore.

Idk if you played SOTN or the sorrow duology but you do realize the imps have 2 different types of attacks right? The one where they fly at you to normally attack and the paralysis thing? Literally what part of “it’s different kind of soul hax” changes the fact it’s still soul hax and both of them are described to be spiritual attacks and strikes? You’re dancing around the conclusion that this is soul hax in the end of the day.

We literally do have several statements for the soul hax, you’re being unnecessarily strict for something straightforward, also again, UES, Magic and soul hax are treated as one and the same in the franchise, so you wanna get rid of the soul hax from everyone, you need to change the UES itself.

How do you even assume the move is non damaging when the ability of the imp that creates the space to cause spiritual damage literally does damage and kill creatures of chaos in the first place? Again I really have to question if you played the game because you can kill regular ass enemies with the spiritual attacks the imp has, and everything about his abilities is described as spiritual attacks in nature.

Yeah this entire rant here is ignoring the point of the UES of the series, plus both of the attacks with the imp are stated to be spiritual so you’re just ignoring the grander argument on why this scales to everyone.

Other demons do affect magic via spiritual means, literally every single cursed enemy is able to drain the magic from others with their cursed status ailment, and also again, the lore and UES in general already establishes the soul and magic being tied to one another, in the story Magnus’ own attacks which empower him with strength are stated to be spiritual strikes and without it his attacks that ripped apart someone’s soul was diminishing. This is all explained in the UES of the blog if you bothered reading it. Like seriously it’s all explained there as to why this cross scales to everyone

 

[Chariot190]

How exactly is it not a standard thing when we have several statements of them doing spiritual damage? The burden of proof is on you that they don’t actually have spiritual damage.

Uh, no, it's on you? A hundred different enemies could have it. That doesn't mean all 1000+ do. Only those who have spirit stuff, get spirit stuff. This is how the wiki works. Unless a statement exists saying they all have it, only those actually stated or shown would have it, bar fringe cases like Dracula and Soma (Whom are noted to have every demon ability, hence why).

If by effecting others you mean they target spiritual damage, that’s literally the showcase of their power in Dawn of Sorrow where they deal spiritual damage to any normal enemy and them without any proper resistance would just die. Like what’s with this Argument of incredulity fallacy where you need to have it spelled out where the entire UES already has it established that magic and souls are one and the same.

Because that's the rules? And yes, in Dawn of Sorrow, in that specific example, Imp grants Soma an ability to deal soul damage.

Note how literally nothing else bar like 2-3 other abilities do that (Meaning it's not universal), how the game goes out of its way to state and then reflect the spitual properties of it (So it isn't universal), and then Imp in other games, or even that very game when not using said ability, deals physical damage instead, and only in the astral space, does it shift from physical to spiritual.

And no, proof is proof. We don't just assume stuff, it needs to be stated or shown, contrary to that, evidence seems to point it being not universal.

It is a universal property with how the UES is. We have numerous instances of one’s soul or spiritual attacks being tied directly to their magic, and more magic means more strength.

Some examples, isn't universal.
More magic implicating more strength doesn't mean they have soul fuckery on every aspect either.

You can say that the Imps don’t do this all the time (they do by the description of the guide where their main paralysis thing you have to break out of is stated to be a spiritual attack),

Which, is something they don't do all the time. For example in Aria or SOTN, the Imp familar just kinda, pokes and deals normal damage.

The two spirit based things that have is paralysis, or soul damage based on MP in DoS via creating a special space in which it's inversed (As in, it isn't even standard for them, it's only applicable in the zone they create and not an intrinsic property).

but that’s literally part of their lore, especially when other instances like with Magnus’s magic being spiritual attacks in nature and cutting it down made him weaker and he was stated to destroy one’s soul, and the entire point with Dracula’s soul and magic alongside the Grimoire of souls lore.

That is cool. That has nothing to do with what I said though. Characters who can tank stuff from Magnus would get it yes.

And Dracula is an exception, of course he has all this slop, same with Soma, they have everything, the imp slop in and of itself is showcased through Soma no less.

Idk if you played SOTN or the sorrow duology but you do realize the imps have 2 different types of attacks right?

Yep, played both, quite a few times. Mostly SOTN and AoS I'm super familiar with. Most other Castlevania games I've only played once or twice (Haven't fully played a few though like the alt canon stuff from LoS, or a few 2D games like Bloodlines I think it was thou).

This is my point, the Imps do, in fact, have two different types of attacks.

The one where they fly at you to normally attack and the paralysis thing? Literally what part of “it’s different kind of soul hax” changes the fact it’s still soul hax and both of them are described to be spiritual attacks and strikes? You’re dancing around the conclusion that this is soul hax in the end of the day.

Because one is normal damage physical pokes, and one doesn't damage the soul at all, it's just unconventional body control via the soul.

The way the profile frames it, and what it's actually doing, are not the same thing. Actually explaining what they resist, what they do, and what an ability does is important. Not all soulhax is the same in the same way not all time manip, biomanip, mind hax, etc are the same.

We literally do have several statements for the soul hax, you’re being unnecessarily strict for something straightforward, also again, UES, Magic and soul hax are treated as one and the same in the franchise, so you wanna get rid of the soul hax from everyone, you need to change the UES itself.

Then post those scans. Nothing has been posted saying every demon in existence has intrinsic soul hax tied to their attacks. That isn't even the case for the demons specified to have it, you yourself just noted the Imp has standard attacks, and then the soul based one.

And no, this is basic wiki rules, this isn't strict, it's just the default scrutiny applied to any verse.

And lad, why are you egging people on? Do you want people to overhaul it?

How do you even assume the move is non damaging when the ability of the imp that creates the space to cause spiritual damage literally does damage and kill creatures of chaos in the first place?

You just explained why it isn't an intrinsic space, just as I did above.
The Imp must create a special space, and within this space, instead of dealing physical damage, attacks target the soul.

This is blatant evidence it isn't some universal trait.

Again I really have to question if you played the game because you can kill regular ass enemies with the spiritual attacks the imp has, and everything about his abilities is described as spiritual attacks in nature.

Nobody is saying otherwise. Not withstanding I've played most before you even came to existence, that's beside the point. This is a fallacious argument, and exists only to undermine one's claims.

This also doesn't matter. I'm asking you to post actual evidence, not accuse people of having not played a game as if that makes you right.

And yes, the Imp creating a special zone where instead of physical damage it deals soul damage, is soul damage and enemies can die due to it. Nobody said otherwise.

Yeah this entire rant here is ignoring the point of the UES of the series, plus both of the attacks with the imp are stated to be spiritual so you’re just ignoring the grander argument on why this scales to everyone.

You, yourself, outright admitted it has two attacks.

This is what the Imp can do.

1. Stab dudes, this is standard normal damage.
2. Due a non-damaging soul based move that causes the target to be immobilized.
3. Create a special zone where attacks deal soul-based damage now instead of the standard damage.

3 is direct evidence it's not an intrinsic property of its attacks, and unless every demon can create said special zone passively, which if it was the case, every other Demon Soma has would do so too, as opposed to being a unique trait for the Imp and explicitly specificied, something one wouldn't do for a universal property. 2 isn't even really soul damage, to make matters worse, the players effected by it just fine, and we don't really have a 3rd party to compare to if they're even actually resisiting it, or if it being broken is just a weakness on the ability itself.

Other demons do affect magic via spiritual means, literally every single cursed enemy is able to drain the magic from others with their cursed status ailment,

That is cool, they can get soul drain then. But, that isn't every demon either.

Why would that apply to basic zombie? They don't drain MP, they don't attack mana. Even if you argue it's because the protags just resist it, why do they not do it to enemies when summoned? Including themselves?

No, this is the problem, you're applying it to everything ever when that's evidently not the case.

and also again, the lore and UES in general already establishes the soul and magic being tied to one another,

That is cool. But doesn't actually tackle a single thing proposed or brought up.

in the story Magnus’ own attacks which empower him with strength are stated to be spiritual strikes and without it his attacks that ripped apart someone’s soul was diminishing.

Characters that have withstood his soul-damaging strikes, can have resistance. Nobody is saying they can't.

This is all explained in the UES of the blog if you bothered reading it. Like seriously it’s all explained there as to why this cross scales to everyone

And that's being contested?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It looks like Glass will be taking a short break from the wiki for real-life matters. So if the discussion continues, I ask you to wait for him before the crt is finalized.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that this revision can be posted, if any possible irrelevant, inappropriate, provocative, sarcastic, or insulting comments are removed from it, and it strictly sticks to the facts of the situation.

Take note that I haven't accepted its application, just that it is being considered.