Fixing the Aeon Physiology page so it is lore-accurate enough for them to be absolutely curb-stomped by Herrschers

[GarrixianXD]

This is a downgrade thread. I'll be listing down everything that needs to be downgraded, whether it be hax, scaling chains, or even attack potency placeholders.

Let's first start with the Aeon Physiology page, which I found a handful amount of issues it contains.

I'll list down each issue one by one:

Type 3 & Regeneration (High-Godly [Conceptual]: 12-D, possibly Ω; Aeons are heavily implied to be capable of regenerating from severe damage that were inflicted on a conceptual level by other Aeons[39][40])

The first scan asserts that the Aeon of Propagation, Tayzzyronth, is able to potentially return from the amber seal they were incarcerated within. Nothing implies that he can recover from the dilution that caused him to lose his body and a conceptual aspect of himself. And even if he was gradually recovering from the wounds that were inflicted upon him by dilution imposed by the Aeon of Preservation, Qlipoth, it wasn't said that he recovered in a considerably short timeframe. There is even in lore information that goes against the possibility that he could recover from a short timeframe; the War between the Aeons and the Storm Disaster occurred around the Amber Eras of 13XX, and the current events of Honkai: Star Rail takes place in the 2158th Amber Era. And even as of 2158th AE, Tayzzyronth is still yet to break free from the amber seal that was incapacitated upon him. Not to mention each Amber Era is around 76 to 240 years.

In summary, nothing states that he could regenerate because nothing implies he recovered from the dilution, only saying that he could potentially break free of the Amber seal that was placed on him. Even if he really was gradually recovering inside his Amber Seal, he hadn't even broken free from his Amber Seal yet, meaning that he hadn't even regenerated after tens of thousands up to hundreds of thousands of years, completely disqualifying any possibility of regeneration.

The solution to this is to remove this section from the page.

Type 2 (High-Godly [Conceptual]: 12-D, possibly Ω; Aeons can survive being brutalized and dismembered on a conceptual level by other Aeons[39][40])

Type 2 immortality to sustain conceptual injuries seems fine as it was said that a secondary concept was extracted from his being, though, not sure why a "High-Godly" term is there. Type 2 Immortality isn't like type 3 which is based on regeneration; it doesn't have placeholder names to denote the degree of its immortality.

The solution to this is to remove the "High-Godly" part of this section.

Power Bestowal (Passive & Activate; 12-D, possibly Ω; Aeons can bestow THEIR imaginary power from the Paths to other beings, whether they are organic or inorganic. Though most of Pathstriders are granted automatically due to their philosophies consonance with the Path while some believers are directly granted,[5][50] such as Fu Xuan case or Emanators[49][72])

I have no idea how an ability can be passive yet needs to be activated at the same time. A Pathstrider automatically being granted Imaginary power from their respective Paths doesn't imply that the Aeons can passively bestow power; that Pathstrider could just not know that the Aeon gave them powers of their Paths and all.

Remove the Passive attribution from their Power Bestowal ability.

Non-Physical Interaction (12-D, possibly Ω; Aeons can interact with other Aeons[3])
(Nonduality; Type 1)

Not even a description was given for the Nonduality section. And Type 1 Nonduality wasn't even mentioned anywhere else on the page.

Nonduality NEP should be removed unless someone is going to provide an acceptable description with proper indexing approved by staff members.

Now moving on to the resistances listed on the page:

Conceptual Sealing (Type 1: 12-D, possibly Ω; Aeons must be severely weakened, incapacitated and dismembered on a conceptual level in order to be successfully sealed, and even so, they will inevitably break out of the conceptual seal, even if it takes thousands of years[40][39])

Tayzzyronth was indeed diluted and stripped of his power and being prior to being sealed. However, it should be noted that Sealing does not always guarantee the bypass of durability. This description and the passages of the scan show that the amber seal imposed upon Tayzzyronth is heavily strength and power-based, and one could break free of it if their power/energy were to be immense enough. With that said, it doesn't necessarily qualify for any degree of resistance to sealing, but rather breaking free of the seal through sheer power. Also, Tayzzyronth not being able to resist the Amber Seal yet still trapped nonetheless, directly goes against a considerable possibility of sealing.

This resistance should be removed.

Aura (Overwhelming), Madness Manipulation (Types 2 & 3), Empathic Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation & Information Manipulation (Type 2: Ω - Absolute Infinity; Aeons should be able to resist being in the presence of IX, which can shatter the minds of THEIR opponents and manipulate their emotions, causing sentient beings that have contact with IX to become insane and had their souls drained passively, often resulting in their incapacitation.[1] IX's presence can also put THEIR opponents to sleep.[2] Aeons should be able to resist the effects of looking at Nous, as those who laid their eyes on THEM are driven into madness instantly.[3] Aeons should also be able to resist Oroboros' voice, which can charm their opponents into wanting to be eaten[2])

I'm rather looking at the Type 2 Information hax in particular here. I suppose that Type 2 Information is listed because IX's presence can shatter the minds and break the spirit of those around his environment, which also includes their souls which is where Type 2 Information stems from. Though, I'll go through further to a similar resistance as to why it is wrong.

Type 2 Information hax resistance should be removed and replaced with type 1.

Memory Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Perception Manipulation & Information Manipulation (All Types: Ω - Absolute Infinity; Aeons should be capable of resisting the effects of looking at Fuli, which make their opponents experience sudden chills and flood them with countless memories and informations of all beings in the universes of which there are an infinite amount of them.[28] Aeons should also be able to resist the powers of Fuli and Memokeepers, who can read, erase, seal[88] and loop memories[37] that resides in the soul which contains the consciousness[89] and fundamental information.[90] Upscales to Heliobi, who are capable of withstanding an infinite amount of information surging into their minds non-stop[91])

This is the issue in particular:

that resides in the soul which contains the consciousness[89] and fundamental information.[90]

The description said that Souls contained fundamental information, but it was only mentioned that Aether information merged with the already inherent information in the embedded citation, which isn't anything universally fundamental. This will only be information type 1 since its only information exclusive to certain objects and concepts.

Remove Type 2 information and keep Type 1 instead for this line, and the same with the last line as I have now given an explanation why the so-called "fundamental information" isn't universal fundamental information.

Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation & Information Manipulation (Type 2; The soul contains the consciousness[89] and fundamental information[90])

And yeah, as said before, souls don't contain universal type 2 information. Replace type 2 with type 1.

For IX's profile:

Additional Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Types 2 & 3, All Aspects [Other: Life, Logic, Space-Time, Order & History]: Ω - Absolute Infinity; IX incarnates the nothingness itself,[3] the opposite of everything that makes up the entire existenceImaginary Tree and Sea of Quanta, which includes body, mind, soul, spirit, life, logic, matter, space, time, order, history, imaginary energy, concepts, fundamental information and imaginary space.[4] Aeons are the amalgamation of concepts within imaginary space[5] which is regarded as the "absolute nothingness" devoid of time that lacks the common sense,[6][7][8] with them having no past, since when one ascends into Aeonhood, their past and future becomes inundated by their Path,[9] but they are still detectable and identifiable through special means,[3][10][11] while IX is beyond the "absolute nothingness" as they are undetectable and unidentifiable by any means[12])

I suppose Nature Type 2 NEP is fine if IX is considering nothingness beyond the Imaginary Space, which is already "absolute nothingness" by itself. As well as the coin description expresses that IX exists as the antithesis of everything, which includes the Imaginary that serves as the fundamental building blocks of reality while also referred to as "absolute nothingness". However, I personally don't have much confidence in evaluating NEP Nature Type 2 so other staff members who are adept with the topic are free to refute it if there is an issue.

Nature Type 3 looks rather iffy, I don't see any scans saying that IX acts as if he exists with a certain property that is perceivable yet is non-existent in nature, or a similar statement that supports Nature Type 3 NEP; only says that he exists as nothingness and beyond the "absolute nothingness" of the Imaginary Space, but not something like [he exists as the "absolute nothingness" of the Imaginary Space yet exists beyond it simultaneously].

NEP Nature Type 3 should be removed.

Passive Aura (Overwhelming), Madness Manipulation (Types 2 & 3), Empathic Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation & Information Manipulation (Type 2: Ω - Absolute Infinity; The presence of IX alone has the ability to shatter the minds of their opponents and manipulate their emotions, causing sentient beings that have contact with IX to become insane and had their souls drained passively, often resulting in their incapacitation.[12] IX's presence can also put their opponents to sleep.[10] IX's powers can affect the soul,[12] which contains the consciousness[14] and fundamental information[15])

The same description and reasoning for the Type 2 Information hax resistance on the Aeons Physiology page. Souls aren't said to have consisted of fundamental information. Replace Type 2 Information hax with Type 1.

Next will be the downgrade thread for HSR scaling chains, and certain feats that are currently deemed valid but should be questioned.

 

[Digital_Franz]

While we're at it, can someone tell me where they can interact with all the NEP Types and Aspects? There are no scans for their NPIs.

 

[GarrixianXD]

While we're at it, can someone tell me where they can interact with all the NEP Types and Aspects? There are no scans for their NPIs.

Aeon's NEP NPI for all aspects comes from Aeon being able to interact with each other. From what I read and analysed through their NEP section that's on the page, their NEPs should be fine by the looks of it.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Aeon's NEP NPI for all aspects comes from Aeon being able to interact with each other. From what I read and analysed through their NEP section that's on the page, their NEPs should be fine by the looks of it.

All Aspects for NEP Type 1 is fine but there is this:

Nonexistent Physiology: All Natures, All Aspects [Other: Life, Logic, Space-Time, Order & History])

Where do the other Natures come from? On their physiology they have only Nature Type 1.

 

[Eseseso]

While we're at it, can someone tell me where they can interact with all the NEP Types and Aspects? There are no scans for their NPIs.

Aeon's NEP NPI for all aspects comes from Aeon being able to interact with each other. From what I read and analysed through their NEP section that's on the page, their NEPs should be fine by the looks of it.

Asides from all of the Aeons having NEP 1, IX has all natures of NEP as well as all aspects.

 

[Woomica]

Asides from all of the Aeons having NEP 1, IX has all natures of NEP as well as all aspects.

that should be IX exclusive, anyway im agree with op

 

[Digital_Franz]

Asides from all of the Aeons having NEP 1, IX has all natures of NEP as well as all aspects.

Yeah thanks. There should at least be an explanation for this. Those who are not familiar with the verse will be lost.

that should be IX exclusive, anyway im agree with op

Are the other Aeons able to interact with IX?

 

[Eseseso]

that should be IX exclusive, anyway im agree with op

Yeah thanks. There should at least be an explanation for this. Those who are not familiar with the verse will be lost.

Are the other Aeons able to interact with IX?

The other Aeons should be capable of interacting with him.

 

[Digital_Franz]

The other Aeons should be capable of interacting with him.

This looks more like an assumption than a fact. But I got what I wanted so I won't go any further.

 

[Woomica]

The other Aeons should be capable of interacting with him.

i dont think it ever happened, if it did show scan it could be helpful

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

i dont think it ever happened, if it did show scan it could be helpful

Acheron was capable of interacting with a manifestation of IX, why shouldn't the Aeons be also capable of doing the same thing that a mere Emanator did? Besides that, IX wasn't portrayed as an overly special Aeon, but still special when compared to the others due to the Nothingness stuff, I am not denying that, and IX wasn't excluded from the statement that only Aeons are being capable of killing other Aeons

 

[GarrixianXD]

@LordGriffin1000 @UchihaSlayer96 @Planck69 @Firestorm808 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Propellus

 

[Woomica]

Acheron was capable of interacting with a manifestation of IX, why shouldn't the Aeons be also capable of doing the same thing that a mere Emanator did? Besides that, IX wasn't portrayed as an overly special Aeon, but still special when compared to the others due to the Nothingness stuff, I am not denying that, and IX wasn't excluded from the statement that only Aeons are being capable of killing other Aeons

aight then it can stay

 

[Vietthai96]

Too long as usual so i don't have much time reading this but

Nondual 1 didn't mean the character is non-physical, even with the old standard, after the recent standard revision from @DontTalkDT , the verse should specific on what nondual grant, so unless this verse specific that nondual 1 make the character non-physical then Nondual 1 NPI is completely unnecessary

After a casual reading of NEP2 for IX i disagree with it, cause NEP2 mean you need to be nonexistent to the pooit of not even existent and nonexistent, IX is stated by the justification that he still a nonexistent that oppose existent, which mean he is still nonexistent that is 0 and oppose the existent that is 1, mean that IX still a part of this duality of existent and nonexistent, NEP2 need IX to not be a part of this duality opposition. So IX is just NEP1, him being beyond even normal existent can't help anything, however the later half do stated he is undetectable and unidentifiable, so this could be an evidence for deeper layer of NEP1

 

[Vietthai96]

Acheron was capable of interacting with a manifestation of IX, why shouldn't the Aeons be also capable of doing the same thing that a mere Emanator did? Besides that, IX wasn't portrayed as an overly special Aeon, but still special when compared to the others due to the Nothingness stuff, I am not denying that, and IX wasn't excluded from the statement that only Aeons are being capable of killing other Aeons

Sorry for double post, but is the manifestation of IX having the same physiology as IX??, cause most of the time, manifestation is mostly just avatar thing

 

[Furina003]

This is the issue in particular:

The description said that Souls contained fundamental information, but it was only mentioned that Aether information merged with the already inherent information in the embedded citation, which isn't anything universally fundamental. This will only be information type 1 since its only information exclusive to certain objects and concepts.

Remove Type 2 information and keep Type 1 instead for this line, and the same with the last line as I have now given an explanation why the so-called "fundamental information" isn't universal fundamental information.

And yeah, as said before, souls don't contain universal type 2 information. Replace type 2 with type 1.

The same description and reasoning for the Type 2 Information hax resistance on the Aeons Physiology page. Souls aren't said to have consisted of fundamental information. Replace Type 2 Information hax with Type 1.

Next will be the downgrade thread for HSR scaling chains, and certain feats that are currently deemed valid but should be questioned.

can anyone explain why this is getting manipulated information & memory manipulation? I don't see any manipulation nformation & memory manipulation there, let alone any resistance. if it only manipulates the soul then it will only get soul manipulation. Manipulating the soul which contains information and memories will not result in information manipulation. because basically souls contain information and memories of the individuals they support that is normal. so this will not get information manipulation if it only manipulates souls that contain information because manipulating information must be proven where he is able to manipulate that information directly.

 

[Voidnether]

can anyone explain why this is getting manipulated information & memory manipulation? I don't see any manipulation nformation & memory manipulation there, let alone any resistance. if it only manipulates the soul then it will only get soul manipulation. Manipulating the soul which contains information and memories will not result in information manipulation. because basically souls contain information and memories of the individuals they support that is normal. so this will not get information manipulation if it only manipulates souls that contain information because manipulating information must be proven where he is able to manipulate that information directly.

If the soul contains information, you don't need to prove that they should manipulate that same information directly. The essence here is that, if you manipulate the soul it's the same like manipulating the information inside it. You should try re-reading the scans again. Plus, this is the unconventional resistance that everyone gets outside of Honkai: Star Rail like Honkai Impact 3rd and Genshin Impact so I wouldn't understand why you'd have to make this statement.

 

[Voidnether]

I disagree with downgrading Information Type 2 to Type 1, the justification for Type 2 mostly is from Silver Wolf since Aether Editing is possible and that she could manipulate reality with data in which it's basically information themselves.

 

[Aernasilver]

Not sure with other powers but the info 2 is based on Silver Wolf's Aether Editing which allows her to edit reality's Aether Information.

 

[Furina003]

If the soul contains information, you don't need to prove that they should manipulate that same information directly. The essence here is that, if you manipulate the soul it's the same like manipulating the information inside it. You should try re-reading the scans again. Plus, this is the unconventional resistance that everyone gets outside of Honkai: Star Rail like Honkai Impact 3rd and Genshin Impact so I wouldn't understand why you'd have to make this statement.

Obviously this must be proven, information is more basic than the soul, you manipulating the soul may not necessarily be able to manipulate the information directly.
as I explained before, the soul contains information and memory is normal, so will all characters who manipulate souls get information manipulation? obviously not.

 

[Furina003]

Not sure with other powers but the info 2 is based on Silver Wolf's Aether Editing which allows her to edit reality.

Has it ever been shown they manipulated the information directly?

 

[Voidnether]

Not even a description was given for the Nonduality section. And Type 1 Nonduality wasn't even mentioned anywhere else on the page.

Nonduality NEP should be removed unless someone is going to provide an acceptable description with proper indexing approved by staff members.

HooH was accepted to be Nonduality Type 1 and NEP stems from IX, if you want to remove this then you should remove the NPI justification as a whole.

I'm rather looking at the Type 2 Information hax in particular here. I suppose that Type 2 Information is listed because IX's presence can shatter the minds and break the spirit of those around his environment, which also includes their souls which is where Type 2 Information stems from. Though, I'll go through further to a similar resistance as to why it is wrong.

This is the issue in particular:

The description said that Souls contained fundamental information, but it was only mentioned that Aether information merged with the already inherent information in the embedded citation, which isn't anything universally fundamental. This will only be information type 1 since its only information exclusive to certain objects and concepts.

Remove Type 2 information and keep Type 1 instead for this line, and the same with the last line as I have now given an explanation why the so-called "fundamental information" isn't universal fundamental information.

And yeah, as said before, souls don't contain universal type 2 information. Replace type 2 with type 1.

Type 2 for Soul is simply because it's stated that it's a fundamental information and at this point you would be ignoring the fact that Aether information is the fundamental information that qualifies for Type 2 Information and it's merged with the Information for Soul, it should be self-evident. Data makes up life, and data is information themselves based on the previous scan I gave you earlier.

For IX's profile:

I suppose Nature Type 2 NEP is fine if IX is considering nothingness beyond the Imaginary Space, which is already "absolute nothingness" by itself. As well as the coin description expresses that IX exists as the antithesis of everything, which includes the Imaginary that serves as the fundamental building blocks of reality while also referred to as "absolute nothingness". However, I personally don't have much confidence in evaluating NEP Nature Type 2 so other staff members who are adept with the topic are free to refute it if there is an issue.

Nature Type 3 looks rather iffy, I don't see any scans saying that IX acts as if he exists with a certain property that is perceivable yet is non-existent in nature, or a similar statement that supports Nature Type 3 NEP; only says that he exists as nothingness and beyond the "absolute nothingness" of the Imaginary Space, but not something like [he exists as the "absolute nothingness" of the Imaginary Space yet exists beyond it simultaneously].

NEP Nature Type 3 should be removed.

NEP2 is fine, but NEP3 probably scales from Acheron since I plan on making her NEP3 due to her physiology refered as something that shouldn't exist and the fact that she stands between existence and nonexistence in which she should be erased from reality a long time ago but she doesn't. But yeah, it could be removed at the moment.

 

[Voidnether]

Obviously this must be proven, information is more basic than the soul, you manipulating the soul may not necessarily be able to manipulate the information directly.
as I explained before, the soul contains information and memory is normal, so will all characters who manipulate souls get information manipulation? obviously not.

Soul contains information means soul is information themselves, it's not that hard.
Manipulating the soul means you're required to manipulate the information and the memory inside it too. And jeez, "obviously not" You can't even prove why it should be lined to your standards. No standards on VSBW does this because the problem is just you.
And mind you, this is unconventional resistance so obviously those who wants to manipulate their soul, they should be proven to manipulate their information too. And who was talking about information manipulation again? It's an unconventional resistance lmao, it should be other fiction that should be doing this. You don't even know what you're saying.

To affect the soul, you must affect the fundamental information inside of it too. Hence, why it's called unconventional resistance. I don't think you even understand what you're saying (2 times I said this).

 

[Voidnether]

And a note for the OP, I think this should be discussed with the supporters before trying to downgrade it. Some of the things here are self-evident but obviously the justification lacks it so for those who don't play Honkai: Star Rail: They're gonna be confused.

Saying this because you knew clearly the first part was what Enryu is doing, but he's busy with real life atm so this could be considered a bad timing. Honestly. I don't think a thread like this should even be considered a downgrade simply the lack of communication that exists (for me, personally, I don't know if you talked it with other supporters).

 

[Furina003]

Soul contains information means soul is information themselves, it's not that hard.
Manipulating the soul means you're required to manipulate the information and the memory inside it too. And jeez, "obviously not" You can't even prove why it should be lined to your standards. No standards on VSBW does this because the problem is just you.
And mind you, this is unconventional resistance so obviously those who wants to manipulate their soul, they should be proven to manipulate their information too. And who was talking about information manipulation again? It's an unconventional resistance lmao, it should be other fiction that should be doing this. You don't even know what you're saying.

To affect the soul, you must affect the fundamental information inside of it too. Hence, why it's called unconventional resistance. I don't think you even understand what you're saying (2 times I said this).

manipulating souls containing information will not obtain manipulated information.

and where do you get the basis from which the soul contains information, meaning that the soul is information? it does not prove that the soul is information itself.

Information is the most basic thing, and more fundamentally in soul ties, souls definitely contain information.

This information forms our memories, personality or consciousness.

if it is only proven to manipulate the soul, then it will only get soul manipulation, unless it is proven to be able to directly manipulate the information contained in the soul.

What I want to see is just one thing, proof that they are really manipulating information, not just souls. If there is, please show it to me, I just want to see evidence of this from the start.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Acheron was capable of interacting with a manifestation of IX, why shouldn't the Aeons be also capable of doing the same thing that a mere Emanator did? Besides that, IX wasn't portrayed as an overly special Aeon, but still special when compared to the others due to the Nothingness stuff, I am not denying that, and IX wasn't excluded from the statement that only Aeons are being capable of killing other Aeons

I didn't see this post. I'm gonna say it doesn't mean anything. Manifestation is not the true form and it's the true form that has the NEP so yeah without interaction with the true form their NEP 2, 3 NPI should be nuked.

Also IX is portrayed as an unapproachable Aeon because of his nature that will just wipe everything out before you can interact with him and he outscales everyone else so much.

 

[Digital_Franz]

After a casual reading of NEP2 for IX i disagree with it, cause NEP2 mean you need to be nonexistent to the pooit of not even existent and nonexistent, IX is stated by the justification that he still a nonexistent that oppose existent, which mean he is still nonexistent that is 0 and oppose the existent that is 1, mean that IX still a part of this duality of existent and nonexistent, NEP2 need IX to not be a part of this duality opposition. So IX is just NEP1, him being beyond even normal existent can't help anything, however the later half do stated he is undetectable and unidentifiable, so this could be an evidence for deeper layer of NEP1

I read it after your comment. It says that IX is the void itself and that it opposes existence and a whole bunch of stuff by also presenting Imaginairy Space. I agree that it is indeed not NEP 2, when TENSURA's NEP 2 was nuked, Dereck said that there is layered NEP 1. I think IX falls into layered NEP 1.

 

[Voidnether]

I didn't see this post. I'm gonna say it doesn't mean anything. Manifestation is not the true form and it's the true form that has the NEP so yeah without interaction with the true form their NEP 2, 3 NPI should be nuked.

Also IX is portrayed as an unapproachable Aeon because of his nature that will just wipe everything out before you can interact with him and he outscales everyone else so much.

Yeah, there's something called "Shadow of IX" though and it pretty much represents IX.

I wouldn't get why we should nuke those, because it would mean that they don't have the passive abilities like IX had despite most of the feats come from Simulated Universe (Aeons Projection, so this is obviously not their True Form).

 

[Voidnether]

I read it after your comment. It says that IX is the void itself and that it opposes existence and a whole bunch of stuff by also presenting Imaginairy Space. I agree that it is indeed not NEP 2, when TENSURA's NEP 2 was nuked, Dereck said that there is layered NEP 1. I think IX falls into layered NEP 1.

What's the standard for NEP2 then? I thought it would be as simple as being deeper than nothingness, no? But you wouldn't get the Nonduality qualities.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Yeah, there's something called "Shadow of IX" though and it pretty much represents IX.

It represents him does not mean that it has the same physiology as him. Until proven otherwise, its physical manifestation does not have his physiology.

I wouldn't get why we should nuke those, because it would mean that they don't have the passive abilities like IX had despite most of the feats come from Simulated Universe (Aeons Projection, so this is obviously not their True Form).

No, not at all. There is nothing indicating that they can interact with IX. It is not a question of simulated Universes. The Aeons have NEP 1 NPI because they have interacted with the true form of the other Aeons. Without that they would not have NEP 1 NPI. Same with IX. Without interaction they have nothing.

 

[Digital_Franz]

What's the standard for NEP2 then? I thought it would be as simple as being deeper than nothingness, no? But you wouldn't get the Nonduality qualities.

No. Layered NEP 1 . The character must be a non-existent that lacks the non-existent. So a non-existent that is not non-existent.

 

[Voidnether]

It represents him does not mean that it has the same physiology as him. Until proven otherwise, its physical manifestation does not have his physiology.

The feats about him being deeper than absolute nothingness in the first place comes from Simulated Universe though, and Simulated Universe in itself is a projection of Aeons.

No, not at all. There is nothing indicating that they can interact with IX. It is not a question of simulated Universes. The Aeons have NEP 1 NPI because they have interacted with the true form of the other Aeons. Without that they would not have NEP 1 NPI. Same with IX. Without interaction they have nothing.

I mean, we don't really know about IX's True Form other than Shadow of IX. This would also nuke Sunday being AE1 and it would be replaced with AE2 (it's still metaphysical though). I mean, there are other cases where Harmonious Choir is simply an embodiment of Xipe but it's more like an incarnation tbh <- The reason why Sunday is considered an Emanator.

 

[Voidnether]

No. Layered NEP 1 . The character must be a non-existent that lacks the non-existent. So a non-existent that is not non-existent.

Jeez.. So Nonduality is required..

 

[Voidnether]

At the moment, I probably can't refute all of Garrixian's point. So it would be best to wait for other supporters to come in other than me (I just hope this wouldn't be concluded fast, so we know what's actually downgraded and what's not since some of these downgrade just lack the justifications and the proper explanations).

 

[Digital_Franz]

manipulating souls containing information will not obtain manipulated information.

I have to agree with this. Just because the body contains the brain, doesn't mean a character with Biological Manipulation would also get Data Manipulation and other stuff for example.

and where do you get the basis from which the soul contains information, meaning that the soul is information? it does not prove that the soul is information itself.

Cut and dry. The Soul isn't Information.

Information is the most basic thing, and more fundamentally in soul ties, souls definitely contain information.

This information forms our memories, personality or consciousness.

if it is only proven to manipulate the soul, then it will only get soul manipulation, unless it is proven to be able to directly manipulate the information contained in the soul.

Agree.

What I want to see is just one thing, proof that they are really manipulating information, not just souls. If there is, please show it to me, I just want to see evidence of this from the start.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Digital_Franz]

The feats about him being deeper than absolute nothingness in the first place comes from Simulated Universe though, and Simulated Universe in itself is a projection of Aeons.

Sucks.

I mean, we don't really know about IX's True Form other than Shadow of IX.

So yeah, bye bye NEP 2 & 3 NPI.

This would also nuke Sunday being AE1 and it would be replaced with AE2 (it's still metaphysical though). I mean, there are other cases where Harmonious Choir is simply an embodiment of Xipe but it's more like an incarnation tbh <- The reason why Sunday is considered an Emanator.

If it's wrong then yes it should be nuked.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Jeez.. So Nonduality is required..

Yeah.

 

[Voidnether]

I have to agree with this. Just because the body contains the brain, doesn't mean a character with Biological Manipulation would also get Data Manipulation and other stuff for example.

Cut and dry. The Soul isn't Information.

Agree.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I mean, it's not about "manipulation" but rather it's more of like Unconventional Resistance. Just don't want people to misinterpret it cause it's how everyone gets Soul & Information Manipulation when in reality it's just their Unconventional Resistance. Should be self-evident enough if you want to manipulate the Soul then you are required to manipulate the information inside simply because it's how Unconventional Resistances work.. <- This was used in most versus threads, lmao

The feats are described in the OP, OP just wanted to change Type 2 to Type 1 Information. Unconventional Resistances are still self-evident and honestly things like these should be discussed outside this thread because it's unnecessary.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I mean, it's not about "manipulation" but rather it's more of like Unconventional Resistance. Just don't want people to misinterpret it cause it's how everyone gets Soul & Information Manipulation when in reality it's just their Unconventional Resistance.

Not really, no. Look for example at TENSURA. Information makes everything in the world and souls are made up of Information Particles which are Information Type 2.

Should be self-evident enough if you want to manipulate the Soul then you are required to manipulate the information inside

No. As manipulating a person's body doesn't require the ability to manipulate blood.

simply because it's how Unconventional Resistances work.. <- This was used in most versus threads, lmao

Some have contexts like the core in GoH otherwise they fooled you.

 

[Voidnether]

Not really, no. Look for example at TENSURA. Information makes everything in the world and souls are made up of Information Particles which are Information Type 2.

They don't have Soul & Information Manipulation, it's just Unconventional Resistance

No. As manipulating a person's body doesn't require the ability to manipulate blood.

Unconventional Resistance is the opposite of this, you're required to manipulate the Soul & Information to finally affect them.. And mind you, it's not just the Soul & Information but also the mind / consciousness.

Some have contexts like the core in GoH otherwise they fooled you.

Ironic how I used HSR's Information Type 2 and GoH as an example of Information Type 2 back in Ben 10 threads..