Fist of the North Star General CRT

[Silvervigilant]

The idea of this just being an art oversight is absolutely inconceivable once you look at Hara as a person, he personally supervises every single piece of media that is FotNS related to judge the aesthetic, even the mobile games, and is a notorious pain in the ass when it comes to graphical fidelity for FotNS media.

Yeah this true, and this is something that i wanted to talk about.

Musou Tensei doesn't grant Existence Erasure to the user anymore despite the fact that in Fist of the North Star: Ken's Rage, Muso Tensei is described as having the ability to erase someone's body from existence. Buronson and Tetsuo Hara themselves were deeply involved with the project and have gone on record to express enthusiasm and support for the game.(he'll Tetsuo Hara even made a promo video sponsored by koei for the game.) So the games provide clear cut "canon" definitions for the moves and gives them names and description as to what each move does. And within the game the description for musou tensei is it's able to erase people from existence (Both the first and sequel to the game have the exact same definition) so why they word doesn't matter in this case ?

Is also worth mentioning that One of the the producers of the game, said in an interview about the how the game will be made and I quote " Hisashi Koinuma, the game's producer said that the staff aim to create a "new realistic feel" for the Fist of the North Star series while still being faithful to the original's roots.

Also shouldn't Musou Tensei grant Nonexistent Physiology to the user instead of just Intangibility Since it literally makes the user made of nothing

 

[Silvervigilant]

Kaioh can cover the entire sky in thick black clouds in a matter of a few frames

Yeah this feat from Kaioh needs to be calculated. this scene in the anime is even more absurd (Kaioh was heavily suppressed when he did this)

 

[Silvervigilant]

Ken is heavily, HEAVILY implied to be a reincarnation of Kasumi, also Kasumi is outright stated to be the strongest Hokuto successor by an omniscient character. It's already shown that the "the successor is always better than the predecessor" rule Hokuto has doesn't work with Kasumi, as a prime Ryuken states that Kasumi was stronger than him.

I think Kasumi is stronger than Raoh and Toki, i mean he was the successor, and not only was Kasumi able to use Musou Tensei, he also did the initiation ritual something that nor Toki or Raoh did it. That said i think that Kenshiro is stronger or at least comparable to Kasumi, due to the fact that Kenshiro was the only one to fully master Musou Tensei and is implied to be Kasumi's reincarnation

 

[Jasonsith]

Update:

1. Something is stopping me in real life from using my go-to desktop computer to do the calculations and evaluations. (It sucks to use a mobile phone to do calculation evaluations.)

Kindly throw any calculation requests up to the request thread.

Making a cloud over a visible range in a second from behind the pov should be yielding cloud spreading speed (20000 * 2) m / 1 s =~ Mach 116.

2. Kasumi should be "more skilled" than Kaioh and Raoh but given not even Kasumi has fully mastered Musou Tensei and while Pre-seal lifted Kenshiro had a hard fought victory over Raoh and was defeated by Kaioh, ... I would say they are very comparable in strength and speed in general and will be a matter of skill and on-time performance.

Thanks for your attention.

 

[Antvasima]

Twellas seems to make sense to me as well.

What do you think @Qawsedf234 and @SamanPatou ?

Also, do you need me to ask any other calc group members to help with calculations here Jasonsith?

 

[Twellas]

Yeah this true, and this is something that i wanted to talk about.

Musou Tensei doesn't grant Existence Erasure to the user anymore despite the fact that in Fist of the North Star: Ken's Rage, Muso Tensei is described as having the ability to erase someone's body from existence. Buronson and Tetsuo Hara themselves were deeply involved with the project and have gone on record to express enthusiasm and support for the game.(he'll Tetsuo Hara even made a promo video sponsored by koei for the game.) So the games provide clear cut "canon" definitions for the moves and gives them names and description as to what each move does. And within the game the description for musou tensei is it's able to erase people from existence (Both the first and sequel to the game have the exact same definition) so why they word doesn't matter in this case ?

Is also worth mentioning that One of the the producers of the game, said in an interview about the how the game will be made and I quote " Hisashi Koinuma, the game's producer said that the staff aim to create a "new realistic feel" for the Fist of the North Star series while still being faithful to the original's roots.

Also shouldn't Musou Tensei grant Nonexistent Physiology to the user instead of just Intangibility Since it literally makes the user made of nothing

ye, MT should 100% give nonexistent physiology, Ken's rage is a shot for shot retelling of the manga, it's absolutely usable, and it makes no sense for MT to be mere intangibility, if it were, everyone in the verse would be able to counter it via touki or straight up touching it like Kasumi does with the wolf.

 

[Twellas]

Wow, when did this happen ?

here's the feat and the calc

 

[Twellas]

The deal with Kasumi is that, there's no way around it, he has the better skill feats, just look at how he deals with stuff like shifted tsubos and life-drain, Ken almost died to both, Kasumi found a way around in a matter of a few pannels, he's also just a general freak, the guy is casually eons above everyone else in SNK barred Liu, who's the only guy who actually forced him to use Tenryu Kokyu Oh.

On the other hand, it's stated that Ken is the strongest successor in the history of Hokuto and that by obtaining MT you become "the most powerful man in the history of Hokuto", meaning that Raoh would also scale above Kasumi. Toki is also stated to have an incomplete MT from the get-go in the Raoh Gaiden series.

This being said, there's a Souten no Ken vs Hokuto no Ken guidebook around somewhere, but I can't for the life of me find any scans from it

 

[Jasonsith]

here's the feat and the calc

I commented despite my busy day job.

 

[Eseseso]

That calc is insane.

Speaking of calcs, I wonder if Kaioh moving the clouds is an island-country level feat?

 

[Antvasima]

I commented despite my busy day job.

Thank you for helping out. I suppose that the calculation probably cannot be used then.

 

[Silvervigilant]

The deal with Kasumi is that, there's no way around it, he has the better skill feats, just look at how he deals with stuff like shifted tsubos and life-drain, Ken almost died to both, Kasumi found a way around in a matter of a few pannels, he's also just a general freak, the guy is casually eons above everyone else in SNK barred Liu, who's the only guy who actually forced him to use Tenryu Kokyu Oh.

On the other hand, it's stated that Ken is the strongest successor in the history of Hokuto and that by obtaining MT you become "the most powerful man in the history of Hokuto", meaning that Raoh would also scale above Kasumi. Toki is also stated to have an incomplete MT from the get-go in the Raoh Gaiden series.

This being said, there's a Souten no Ken vs Hokuto no Ken guidebook around somewhere, but I can't for the life of me find any scans from it

Yeah i agree with you, Kasumi is the most skilled. During most of the HNK series, Kenshiro wasn't as skilled as Kasumi, but near end of the series of the series, Kenshiro did the initiation ritual which makes him live through the lives of every successor in the history of Hokuto and thus gaining Kasumi experience.

 

[Twellas]

Yeah i agree with you, Kasumi is the most skilled. During most of the HNK series, Kenshiro wasn't as skilled as Kasumi, but near end of the series of Kenshiro did the initiation ritual which makes him live through the lives of every successor in the history of Hokuto and thus gaining Kasumi experience.

on this note, statements-wise, what Ken went through was different from what Kasumi went through, it's probably just a retcon, but it's still possible that Ken's initiation ritual was different from Kasumi and gave him less experience

 

[Silvervigilant]

here's the feat and the calc

That's good, also this would scale to the top tiers of the series since Kaioh was able to fight Shachi (possessed by the goddess of Hokuto) to a standstill.

 

[Antvasima]

So what do we currently need to do here?

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's good, also this would scale to the top tiers of the series since Kaioh was able to fight Shachi (possessed by the godness of Hokuto) to a standstill.

Why would a travel speed feat scale to combat speed?

 

[Silvervigilant]

on this note, statements-wise, what Ken went through was different from what Kasumi went through, it's probably just a retcon, but it's still possible that Ken's initiation ritual was different from Kasumi and gave him less experience

I think it was the same ritual, it's just that in HNK the ritual was left a little vague, while in SNK they went more into the details.

 

[Twellas]

That's good, also this would scale to the top tiers of the series since Kaioh was able to fight Shachi (possessed by the godness of Hokuto) to a standstill.

That's not really sound scaling imo, Shachi wasn't being powered up by the goddess or anything, he was being used as a meat puppet

 

[Silvervigilant]

That's not really sound scaling imo, Shachi wasn't being powered up by the goddess or anything, he was being used as a meat puppet

No, Shachi was indeed powered up the goddess, just the fact that he was able to fight Kaioh for more than a few seconds it's more than enough proof, not to mention the fact that pressure points attacks were not affecting him, and the fact that Kaioh outright says that the goddess was fighting FOR Shachi and Kaioh also said that he wasn't fighting Shachi but the goddess herself

 

[Twellas]

No, Shachi was indeed powered up the goddess, just the fact that he was able to fight Kaioh for more than a few seconds it's more than enough proof, not to mention the fact that pressure points attacks were not affecting him, and the fact that Kaioh outright says that the goddess was fighting FOR Shachi and Kaioh also said that he wasn't fighting Shachi but the goddess herself

It's stated in the Sekimatu Haou Retsuden guide that Kaioh broke every single bone in Shachi's body with a single punch during that fight, and did so casually as well. It's also stated that Shachi effectively died before the goddess even came into the frey and she just kept him alive (as I said, like a meat puppet). Kaioh giving that statement doesn't mean much, he was actually fighting the goddess, just through a proxy

 

[Eseseso]

So what do we currently need to do here?

Maybe take a look at Kaioh and the clouds, like what I, @Twellas , and @Silvervigilant have suggested?

 

[Silvervigilant]

It's stated in the Sekimatu Haou Retsuden guide that Kaioh broke every single bone in Shachi's body with a single punch during that fight, and did so casually as well. It's also stated that Shachi effectively died before the goddess even came into the frey and she just kept him alive (as I said, like a meat puppet). Kaioh giving that statement doesn't mean much, he was actually fighting the goddess, just through a proxy

Yeah that not really contradicts what i said, but the way i interpreted was that she kept Shachi alive by possessing him to fight Kaioh, and i also think that Kaioh's statements are valid as well.

the thing is that i'm completely fine with FTL to MFTL for HNK top tiers

 

[Qawsedf234]

the thing is that i'm completely fine with FTL to MFTL for HNK top tiers

Why would a travel speed feat scale to combat speed?

 

[Twellas]

Yeah that not really contradicts what i said, but the way i interpreted was that she kept Shachi alive by possessing him to fight Kaioh, and i also think that Kaioh's statements are valid as well.

the thing is that i'm completely fine with FTL to MFTL for HNK top tiers

got proof of the Goddess actually powering up Shachi to the point where Kaioh could be said to have fought her? otherwise it's all headcanon

 

[Silvervigilant]

got proof of the Goddess actually powering up Shachi to the point where Kaioh could be said to have fought her?

i'll just repeat what i said earlier.

Kaioh outright says that the goddess was fighting FOR Shachi and Kaioh also said that he wasn't fighting Shachi but the goddess herself

 

[Qawsedf234]

As before:

Why would a travel speed feat scale to combat speed

 

[Silvervigilant]

As before:

I personaly belive that this feat serve to backup the Tento Kogai Sho feat

 

[Twellas]

i'll just repeat what i said earlier.

Kaioh outright says that the goddess was fighting FOR Shachi and Kaioh also said that he wasn't fighting Shachi but the goddess herself

and I'll repeat what I said, none of these prove that the Goddess herself was fighting or that she powered up Shachi so much that Kaioh scales to her, Kaioh can say "i fought the goddess" and he'd technically be right, because he fought Shachi while it was being piloted by Goddess, Rin can say "she was fighting for him" and he'd be right, because she's piloting his corpse, none of these prove that Shachi was as strong as the goddess. Even if we agree that she gave him a power boost, you literally have no way of proving that Shachi at that moment was as strong as the goddess herself

 

[Silvervigilant]

and I'll repeat what I said, none of these prove that the Goddess herself was fighting or that she powered up Shachi so much that Kaioh scales to her, Kaioh can say "i fought the goddess" and he'd technically be right, because he fought Shachi while it was being piloted by Goddess, Rin can say "she was fighting for him" and he'd be right, because she's piloting his corpse, none of these prove that Shachi was as strong as the goddess. Even if we agree that she gave him a power boost, you literally have no way of proving that Shachi at that moment was as strong as the goddess herself

Well there's no proof that Shachi was being "piloted" by the goddess. also if she were piloting Shachi then Kaioh would say that he was fighting Shachi powered up by the goddess or something like that , but he cleary says that he fought the goddess herself.

 

[Twellas]

Well there's no proof that Shachi was being "piloted" by the goddess. also if she were piloting Shachi then Kaioh would say that he was fighting Shachi powered up by the goddess, but he cleary says that he fought the goddes herself.

which he didn't, because he's demonstrably fighting Shachi and not the goddess who is, at most, possessing his body. Yeah there's no evidence that she was piloting him, so it might just be that she didn't even have anything to do with the fight at all and she just kept Shachi alive.
This is way too vague to lead to any kind of significant scaling

 

[Silvervigilant]

which he didn't, because he's demonstrably fighting Shachi and not the goddess who is, at most, possessing his body. Yeah there's no evidence that she was piloting him, so it might just be that she didn't even have anything to do with the fight at all and she just kept Shachi alive.
This is way too vague to lead to any kind of significant scaling

I kinda agree that the scene is vague, but the reason i interpret that the goddess was possessing Shachi's body, is because of what Kaioh says, but that's it.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Jasonsith]

More likely it is mataphors visualised. Both the Shachi goddess thing and the ritual.

 

[Eseseso]

Everyone be fighting over the Shachi Goddess statement, all the while I'm just hoping someone will make a good calc for Kaioh messing up the clouds.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind me about/provide an explanation for the arguments here please?

 

[Twellas]

Ok, I'm back to finish what I've started, I feel like I have an obligation to help out with this verse I love and worked on so much

I've also been keeping up with the REGENESIS sequel, which contains some new abilities and scaling, so ask away for anything you might need to know, it also has some feats (A guy is also stated by the narrator to be capable of "obliterating stars"...)

On top of this, I also made a comprehensive DOC regarding the skill of the verse, upgrading pretty much every High Tier to Extraordinary Genius and almost every character in the verse to Genius, I guess

I personally buy into the FTL scaling for multiple reasons, which I can get into if y'all are interested

It would also be cool if anyone checked the DOC, I guess that would count as a skill CRT for the verse

 

[Eseseso]

It would also be cool if anyone checked the DOC, I guess that would count as a skill CRT for the verse

I already checked it out and thought that it was really good.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind me about/provide an explanation for the arguments here please?

If this is done, I might also be able to get other staff members to help out here if necessary.

 

[Eseseso]

If this is done, I might also be able to get other staff members to help out here if necessary.

Would it be possible for you to maybe find someone to calc Kaioh messing up those clouds?

 

[Antvasima]

If you provide all of the visual evidence, I can ask somebody to calculate it, yes.