First LN profile Upgrade for MGK

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'd appreciate that. If you could also summarize the focal points in a neutral way and explain the counter arguments too (doing your best to be fair to them) that would save me a lot of time.

I'd appreciate you check @Elizhaa @DarkGrath & @Dereck03 replies. Fuji being neutral is not possible

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

To clarify, Elizhaa and Dark's responses were before a lot more points were made from both sides. Do with that what you will.

Also, if you could at least warn Elde to tone down the hostility, that would be great.

 

[Tatsumi504]

To clarify, Elizhaa and Dark's responses were before a lot more points were made from both sides. Do with that what you will.

I swear your hypocrisy is mind blowing. Says the person who used staff votes that happened before there were even any counter arguments.

Also, if you could at least warn Elde to tone down the hostility, that would be great

Really now, says the one who joined a staff to actually slander my name despite what I said being right and doesn't even have the decency to apologize?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Jesus. I'm taking this to the RVR, it's late and I have 0 patience for your bullshit. Stop detailing and let Deagon respond.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

To clarify, Elizhaa and Dark's responses were before a lot more points were made from both sides. Do with that what you will.

Elizha already Knowledgeable staff on the verse unlike glass. She doesn't need to state her vote repeatedly.
Even still atleast Elizha gives better explanation than whatever Glass can spam random bullshit gg.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip.

Don't go over complete Crap whatever Fuji said regarding gods and other things which doesn't work like that. Especially she claiming God of destruction died. That shit never happened complete Headcanon. This is why I suggested to check other staffs replies

CM type 1 for Order and Jerga @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless replies.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5699526

@Elizhaa Reply

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5700264

@DarkGrath replies

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5700670

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5701264

My final conclusion

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5701328

As for others arguments they can make a summary. But i am not free to summarise them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Abernyu dying/being destroyed isn't really a headcanon. I forgot to highlight "erasing that order from this world", but that would also fall under death/destruction.

 

[DarkGrath]

Okay, so, I will need a bit more time to give a thorough response to the new information brought up. However, because one particular quote of mine was a large point of argument earlier in this thread, I'll quickly address this before I evaluate everything else.

There were a lot of arguments about this particular quote from one of my earlier posts:

"Furthermore, the quotes that are clearly literal like "The fate determined by the Gods is absolute" are just lacking in relevancy - even if this quote is 100% true and literal, how does this mean that someone gets Resistance to Fate Manipulation by walking in a time-stopped world?"

People have understandably been confused about whether I was saying the quote in question was literal or not - the first part implies it clearly was, and the latter implies I don't know. I'm normally careful about my phrasing as to not let confusions like this occur, but I evidently made a mistake here - my apologies for the problems this has caused.

To clarify what I meant here; what I was trying to say was that the quote in question appeared to be literal to me. From the scans presented, I saw no reason to think that they weren't referring to "fate" in the traditional use of the term. This was why I referred to it as an example of a "literal statement", in comparison to the prior statement in that comment (which I was confident was not literal), hence the former part of my sentence. However, I could not say this with 100% certainty, and even if I could, my problem with the argument was not about whether or not the statement was literal - it was about whether the statement was even relevant, hence the latter part of my statement.

Had I rephrased that comment, I would have changed "clearly literal" to something along the lines of "likely literal". I didn't pay much mind to that aspect of the reply, because I didn't see it as very important - whether the statement was literal or not, without relevancy, it proves nothing.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip

I am fine with giving up on fate manipulation for now for Eugola Raviaz. But Venozdonor has statement for destroying fate by removing the Logic of fate itself and Order of destruction is what sealed inside Venozdonor So for those 2 I will keep those as fate manipulation

Dark Could you check this ? my current proposal. I don't want to drag this thread forever and I guess we can conclude on certain parts if you evaluate this.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5701328

 

[Dereck03]

I know that it was already proven in the RVT that fuji's scan saying that Aberneyu is dead is cropped and being used in a wrong way even clarifying that she is dead.

She was transformed into Delsogade, and her current form is Sasha, Aberneyu is still in a lethargic state because she is Delsogade but later it is proven that she is still alive when sasha awakens her divine powers where we can see Aberneyu again (Here the image, Aberneyu is the one with the black dress).

She is not dead since she is delsogade, she reincarnated in sasha and when sasha recovered her divinity she appears again, that proves that she is not dead.
If she were really dead there would be no way to revive her since the only way would be with Agronemt but that was millions of years ago and it is not known where her source is nor has she been re-created by Eques or Nosgalia.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh my god you can't be serious

The point remains that Abernyu is inert or inactive in some way. The fact that I used "dead" to convey that isn't some attempt at misinformation on my end, you people are insane.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Deagonx @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X any input here is appreciated

What exactly is needed?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What exactly is needed?

Could you read this recap post and give your thoughts on it?

I couldn't sleep and I have a crippling soda addiction so I decided to knock this out at 1AM. I tried to keep this unbiased, though MG supporters are free to add more context if I missed any. That said, I excluded things which weren't really pertinent to the discussion at hand, so some previously posted scans will be missing.

Order as a Type 1 Concept

To begin, I accept that Jerga's order - that of the hatred of demons - is type 1. @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless explained it very well in this post, so I won't contest it. However, the issue starts with attempting to scale all other instances of order to Jerga. Jerga's whole deal is very unique, considering he isn't like other gods in that he is/is the embodiment of order; Rather, he had to turn his own source into order, which is something no other character does. This makes scaling the orders of other gods to Jerga's order very questionable, since his order was created under special circumstances.

There are then two arguments that run counter to that. The first is this statement, which is that Jerga's order was second only to that of the gods, implying gods' orders are superior in some way. There is also a statement that Jerga had become a shard of the world's order, implying that his type 1 concept was only a fragment of a greater concept. The first statement is quite vague; We do not know how or why Jerga's order is inferior, so it's difficult to infer that this can be translated to "Jerga's order is type 1, and gods' orders are superior, so they have to be type 1 too". The second scan is odd, since it isn't saying that Jerga's order is a fragment of a greater order, just that Jerga's magic had become a fragment of the order of the world (which is Jerga's source).

In short, it is the OP's belief that the two statements comparing Jerga's order indicate all other order is superior to a type 1 concept, while I believe both statements should not be used in this way as they do not elaborate on the nature of the superiority. Thus, in my opinion it would be best to index each individual order separately, rather than attempting to generalize all of them.

Order as Fate

The OP originally proposed fate manipulation as an extension order because of this, where order is equated with providence. The OP also said they'd remove this part from the original proposals, but they still haven't done that?

There is also the repeated idea that gods control the fates of those below them, as shown here and here. The scans speak for themselves, I think, so there's not much I can add here.

Finally, it is stated that when Abernyu died, the order of destruction fell alongside her. This caused destruction itself to halt, preventing those who should have died from dying, and those who should've fallen to ruin survived. The idea here is that, because these people were destined to die, and that the alteration of order changed their fate, order should constitute fate manipulation.

My issues are as follows. First is that "providence" just refers to divine protection, not any sort of manipulation of fate.

Secondly, I'll start with the second batch of scans. These mostly state that the order of the gods is the absolute, unchangeable force. While that may support fate manipulation, they fit law manipulation equally well, so from my perspective it seems more like it's talking about the laws gods impose on the world. The first scan is definitely fate manipulation, but the big issue is that at no point does it say that order and fate are the same thing, just that gods control fate.

For the final part, it's a simple matter of the concept of destruction ceasing, thereby preventing things from being destroyed. This is not fate manipulation, it's more akin to someone dropping a plate and then "changing the future" by not being able to eat off the plate after the fact. If a concept doesn't exist, then the things relying on that concept will not work, extending into the future, though this is by no means controlling fate.

I'm also aware that Dereck has posted scans debunking this point. However, these come from the web novel version of Maou Gakuin, and as the page currently indexed is exclusively for the light novel version, those scans should not be used.

Power Modification

This hasn't been discussed at all, so no defense from the OP has been made. In this scan, Anos was able to make the order of destruction his own, by taking the power leaking from Abernyu and creating Venuzdonoa with it. The issue is, Abernyu is dead, so this is more like taking an ambient magical phenomena and manipulating it, not modifying someone else's power.

Resisting Order via Resisting Time Stop

In these scans, Anos is able to resist Ivis' time stop. The argument from the OP is that, since Ivis utilises the order of time, then Anos would have to be resisting the effects of order as well (granting resistance to CM1/2, fate hax, law hax, and so on). This is further supported by the statement that Ivis created a new world where time is frozen, implying the institution of a new reality with differing laws, and Anos was able to resist the laws being imposed on him.

My contentions are twofold. For the latter, it is a common turn of phrase to say a time stop creates a "world where time has frozen" (even my own verse does this, for example). This is not intended as a way of saying a new reality with different laws was created, so it shouldn't really apply here. Of course, it isn't really a "world" at all, just a bubble shaped AoE. The former is more complicated, since we don't typically give resistances to the mechanisms of a power source, rather, we give resistances based on the actual applications of the power source. For example, characters in Guilty Gear and Digimon use information manipulation as a basis for magic, but not every character who resists a magical attack also resists information manipulation. Or for another example, characters in Touhou (please do not derail this thread talking about Touhou again, this is just an example) create attacks by giving concepts to them, but that doesn't mean every character who resists a regular attack would resist concept manipulation.

So this would only be resistance to time stop, and not resistance to order, since order is just a mechanism through which the time stop is used. By the way, as a side note, Anos currently has resistance to law manipulation and CM1 based on this:

Law Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1. Can resist abilities that stems purely from Order)

If the above logic is rejected, this would need to be removed from his profile.

This is a summary of most of what's been discussed so far.

 

[Fixxed]

This is a summary of most of what's been discussed so far.

*your summary

 

[Qawsedf234]

*your summary

They're summary would still be a summary. So I don't think you need to needle them.

For the recap and speed reading through the first page

For Jerga Type 1 wouldn't be proving that Jerge needs humanity to survive for Type 1, but that the idea of demon hatred can be destroyed without effecting the concept of demon hatred being destroyed. I don't know if those scans really do that.


Fate Manipulation seems like it exists but not yet in the LN version, so I'm not really sure what to do about it. I guess if we're confident in that explanation not changing then just keep Fate Manipulation as a thing and just expand it out later.

The Power Modification going by your explanation doesn't seem to work since he's not modifying and active thing.

For Time Manipulation it depends. AoE it's time resistance. If they edited the order of time to be 0 then it would be time resistance and a specific time of Law resistance or acasual.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They're summary would still be a summary. So I don't think you need to needle them.

For the recap and speed reading through the first page

For Jerga Type 1 wouldn't be proving that Jerge needs humanity to survive for Type 1, but that the idea of demon hatred can be destroyed without effecting the concept of demon hatred being destroyed. I don't know if those scans really do that.


Fate Manipulation seems like it exists but not yet in the LN version, so I'm not really sure what to do about it. I guess if we're confident in that explanation not changing then just keep Fate Manipulation as a thing and just expand it out later.

The Power Modification going by your explanation doesn't seem to work since he's not modifying and active thing.

For Time Manipulation it depends. AoE it's time resistance. If they edited the order of time to be 0 then it would be time resistance and a specific time of Law resistance or acasual.

Bro she is lying about that power modification scan even we had Rvt on that shit

I know that it was already proven in the RVT that fuji's scan saying that Aberneyu is dead is cropped and being used in a wrong way even clarifying that she is dead.

She was transformed into Delsogade, and her current form is Sasha, Aberneyu is still in a lethargic state because she is Delsogade but later it is proven that she is still alive when sasha awakens her divine powers where we can see Aberneyu again (Here the image, Aberneyu is the one with the black dress).

She is not dead since she is delsogade, she reincarnated in sasha and when sasha recovered her divinity she appears again, that proves that she is not dead.
If she were really dead there would be no way to revive her since the only way would be with Agronemt but that was millions of years ago and it is not known where her source is nor has she been re-created by Eques or Nosgalia.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They're summary would still be a summary. So I don't think you need to needle them.

For the recap and speed reading through the first page

For Jerga Type 1 wouldn't be proving that Jerge needs humanity to survive for Type 1, but that the idea of demon hatred can be destroyed without effecting the concept of demon hatred being destroyed. I don't know if those scans really do that.


Fate Manipulation seems like it exists but not yet in the LN version, so I'm not really sure what to do about it. I guess if we're confident in that explanation not changing then just keep Fate Manipulation as a thing and just expand it out later.

The Power Modification going by your explanation doesn't seem to work since he's not modifying and active thing.

For Time Manipulation it depends. AoE it's time resistance. If they edited the order of time to be 0 then it would be time resistance and a specific time of Law resistance or acasual.

For fate manipulation, those scans come from a different medium and use a different translation. So it's probably best to toss it for now and just add it again if more evidence comes up.

Bro she is lying about that power modification scan even we had Rvt on that shit

I posted the full scan, so he can check for himself. The point remains that Abernyu was inert/inactive, which wouldn't change Qaws' evaluation

Also, stop slandering me, thanks.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

For fate manipulation, those scans come from a different medium and use a different translation. So it's probably best to toss it for now and just add it again if more evidence comes up.

I posted the full scan, so he can check for himself. The point remains that Abernyu was inert/inactive, which wouldn't change Qaws' evaluation

Also, stop slandering me, thanks.

Gonna send this to RVR for again you spreading misinformation. She was not inactive. There no statement for that. You are still being dishonest here.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

She was stated to have been felled, vanquished, erased, usurped, and turned into a castle. Sounds pretty inactive to me. Also, if Abernyu was 100% fine, then why was the order of destruction - the order that Abernyu literally is according to you - stated to have been "distorted" and "removed"?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

They're summary would still be a summary. So I don't think you need to needle them.

For the recap and speed reading through the first page

For Jerga Type 1 wouldn't be proving that Jerge needs humanity to survive for Type 1, but that the idea of demon hatred can be destroyed without effecting the concept of demon hatred being destroyed. I don't know if those scans really do that.


Fate Manipulation seems like it exists but not yet in the LN version, so I'm not really sure what to do about it. I guess if we're confident in that explanation not changing then just keep Fate Manipulation as a thing and just expand it out later.

The Power Modification going by your explanation doesn't seem to work since he's not modifying and active thing.

For Time Manipulation it depends. AoE it's time resistance. If they edited the order of time to be 0 then it would be time resistance and a specific time of Law resistance or acasual.

CM type 1 for Order and Jerga @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless replies.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5699526

@Elizhaa Reply

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5700264

@DarkGrath replies

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5700670

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5701264

My final conclusion

https://vsbattles.com/threads/first-ln-profile-upgrade-for-mgk.152961/post-5701328

As for others arguments they can make a summary. But i am not free to summarise them.

Check this instead where actually staff evaluated things instead of Fuji own words which aren't what others claimed.

As for Aberneyu scan literally states Anos Overwrote her name and converted her body into his castle and turned her power into his spell.

Additionally She fell down from heaven statement context is Anos removed her from the heavenly realm. If you read the scans it clearly states by Anos hands then he removed the order of destruction from the world by converting the goddess into his castles and power into his own spell.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No, it states he took the power leaking from the castle and made it his own. The order of events is turning Abernyu into a castle and then taking the order of destruction.

Also, let Qaws draw his own conclusions rather than bombard him with insults directed at me. He's probably not going to read what you have to say if you do it through the lens of "the other side is always biased and lying so you should only listen to me".

 

[Godsatoshi23]

What exactly is needed?

I know you might be busy with other stuff and asking your time might be too much. But It would be much better and good understanding what's happening here if you read the entire thread and there are only two pages so it won't take much time I guess.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

No, it states he took the power leaking from the castle and made it his own. The order of events is turning Abernyu into a castle and then taking the order of destruction.

Also, let Qaws draw his own conclusions rather than bombard him with insults directed at me. He's probably not going to read what you have to say if you do it through the lens of "the other side is always biased and lying so you should only listen to me".

Scan can state thousand things but each will have different contexts. You haven't even read the series you making up your own headcanons without even knowing what's the context behind the scans.

Goddess of destruction comes back in next part which translation will be releasing in July which already shows you are completely wrong about whatever you claiming. So stop trying to twist the context in the scans and let people like me or dereck who actually read the series explain Complete thing. Dereck even Clarified about Aberneyu not dying instead turning into Venozdonor.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I know you might be busy with other stuff and asking your time might be too much

I mean, I'll read through the thread when I get the chance but most of you need to chill out. It seems weirdly heated at the moment.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I mean, I'll read through the thread when I get but most you all need to chill out. It seems weirdly heated at the moment.

Okay and also thanks.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I mean, I'll read through the thread when I get but most you all need to chill out. It seems weirdly heated at the moment.

I will apologize for the behaviour. i just got pissed by constant misinformation from Fuji.

Going back into real discussion If God of destruction was erased then Anos wouldn't be able to convert into his castle* how will a erased character will be converted into something? Additionally if Order is erased how will Anos manipulates the erased order ? Also how will he make erased order into his own spell?

God of destruction getting erased statement is taken out of context by Fujiwara. Here erased is not meaning erased instead removed by converting order of destruction into his castle. Order getting erased and converted into something else doesn't even make sense.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Guess I'll make my refutations here.

Rather, he had to turn his own source into order, which is something no other character does. This makes scaling the orders of other gods to Jerga's order very questionable, since his order was created under special circumstances.

He didn't turn himself into order. The Order of the world was rewritten converting him into magic and magic is Overseen by Order which is what makes him a part of it.

The first statement is quite vague; We do not know how or why Jerga's order is inferior, so it's difficult to infer that this can be translated to "Jerga's order is type 1, and gods' orders are superior, so they have to be type 1 too". The second scan is odd, since it isn't saying that Jerga's order is a fragment of a greater order, just that Jerga's magic had become a fragment of the order of the world (which is Jerga's source).

Except it is clearly known. Nosgalia is the God that gives birth to Gods. Turning a human into a God goes against his Order, hence he made him a lesser part of it which was in line with his Order to destroy the Demon King.

Gods are so bound to Order that their actions cannot deviate from it. A God cannot do what is against their Order. For example, Nosgalia cannot attack Anos directly because his Order is to give birth to Gods.
Their actions are entirely bound to and decided by their Order to the point that Gods don't possess emotions, they don't have a mind, they are nothing, just Order.

In what way is the second scan vague? It directly says his Order is a fragment of that of the world. Jerga directly became a fragment of the worlds Order (Magic- the spell <Aske> to be exact).

Secondly, I'll start with the second batch of scans. These mostly state that the order of the gods is the absolute, unchangeable force. While that may support fate manipulation, they fit law manipulation equally well, so from my perspective it seems more like it's talking about the laws gods impose on the world. The first scan is definitely fate manipulation, but the big issue is that at no point does it say that order and fate are

I fail to see how a scan that literally says "The fate determined by the Gods" is referring to Law manipulation. "From my perspective" "it seems" none of that matters when it literally mentioned Fate.

"At no point does it say Order and Fate are the same". What is Order and what are Gods?
The beings who maintain Order- the beings who embody that Order- the beings that are the highest Order of natural law. That is a God. A God's power comes from Order, Gods are Order and their power is Order. If Gods have fate manipulation, that fate is Order.

Anos was able to make the order of destruction his own, by taking the power leaking from Abernyu and creating Venuzdonoa with it. The issue is, Abernyu is dead, so this is more like taking an ambient magical phenomena and manipulating it, not modifying someone else's power.

The Order of Destruction is the end (MGK version of yogiiri)- it is death and destruction. As I've outlined above, a God's power cannot go against or do anything outside the jurisdiction of their Order.

Anos took away the Order of Destruction, turned it into something that destroys logic. The power to destroy logic isn't something the Order of destruction is capable of. So yes, the power of the Order of destruction was modified

So this would only be resistance to time stop, and not resistance to order, since order is just a mechanism through which the time stop is used. By the way, as a side note, Anos currently has resistance

A God's power is Order. This isn't giving resistance to the mechanisms of an ability, that mechanism is their ability. A God has no power of their own that isn't Order.

Eugo la Raviaz uses alters Order to stop time. Time stop isn't a separate application of Order, it is Order. Time wasn't just stopped. Concepts, Laws, Fate were altered directly to make time stop. To resist that requires directly resisting the other 3.

 

[Tatsumi504]

They're summary would still be a summary. So I don't think you need to needle them.

For the recap and speed reading through the first page

For Jerga Type 1 wouldn't be proving that Jerge needs humanity to survive for Type 1, but that the idea of demon hatred can be destroyed without effecting the concept of demon hatred being destroyed. I don't know if those scans really do that.


Fate Manipulation seems like it exists but not yet in the LN version, so I'm not really sure what to do about it. I guess if we're confident in that explanation not changing then just keep Fate Manipulation as a thing and just expand it out later.

The Power Modification going by your explanation doesn't seem to work since he's not modifying and active thing.

For Time Manipulation it depends. AoE it's time resistance. If they edited the order of time to be 0 then it would be time resistance and a specific time of Law resistance or acasual.

Guess I'll make my refutations here.

He didn't turn himself into order. The Order of the world was rewritten converting him into magic and magic is Overseen by Order which is what makes him a part of it.

Except it is clearly known. Nosgalia is the God that gives birth to Gods. Turning a human into a God goes against his Order, hence he made him a lesser part of it which was in line with his Order to destroy the Demon King.

Gods are so bound to Order that their actions cannot deviate from it. A God cannot do what is against their Order. For example, Nosgalia cannot attack Anos directly because his Order is to give birth to Gods.
Their actions are entirely bound to and decided by their Order to the point that Gods don't possess emotions, they don't have a mind, they are nothing, just Order.

In what way is the second scan vague? It directly says his Order is a fragment of that of the world. Jerga directly became a fragment of the worlds Order (Magic- the spell <Aske> to be exact).

I fail to see how a scan that literally says "The fate determined by the Gods" is referring to Law manipulation. "From my perspective" "it seems" none of that matters when it literally mentioned Fate.

"At no point does it say Order and Fate are the same". What is Order and what are Gods?
The beings who maintain Order- the beings who embody that Order- the beings that are the highest Order of natural law. That is a God. A God's power comes from Order, Gods are Order and their power is Order. If Gods have fate manipulation, that fate is Order.

The Order of Destruction is the end (MGK version of yogiiri)- it is death and destruction. As I've outlined above, a God's power cannot go against or do anything outside the jurisdiction of their Order.

Anos took away the Order of Destruction, turned it into something that destroys logic. The power to destroy logic isn't something the Order of destruction is capable of. So yes, the power of the Order of destruction was modified

A God's power is Order. This isn't giving resistance to the mechanisms of an ability, that mechanism is their ability. A God has no power of their own that isn't Order.

Eugo la Raviaz uses alters Order to stop time. Time stop isn't a separate application of Order, it is Order. Time wasn't just stopped. Concepts, Laws, Fate were altered directly to make time stop. To resist that requires directly resisting the other 3.

I've addressed the refutations as well as your own issues here

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I will respond to this later, there's a lot wrong here.

 

[Dog3352]

Is it really being "discussed" whether gods abilities use order? A God using an ability that is 100% linked to his order (Eugo using time stop, and being a God of time). Saying that a god doesn't use order in his abilities is like saying the sun of destruction doesn't use order of destruction.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Each gods realms has different rules. I will address that if Staff aren't satisfied with current proof

 

[Deagonx]

Order as a Type 1 Concept

To begin, I accept that Jerga's order - that of the hatred of demons - is type 1. @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless explained it very well in this post, so I won't contest it. However, the issue starts with attempting to scale all other instances of order to Jerga. Jerga's whole deal is very unique, considering he isn't like other gods in that he is/is the embodiment of order; Rather, he had to turn his own source into order, which is something no other character does. This makes scaling the orders of other gods to Jerga's order very questionable, since his order was created under special circumstances.

There are then two arguments that run counter to that. The first is this statement, which is that Jerga's order was second only to that of the gods, implying gods' orders are superior in some way. There is also a statement that Jerga had become a shard of the world's order, implying that his type 1 concept was only a fragment of a greater concept. The first statement is quite vague; We do not know how or why Jerga's order is inferior, so it's difficult to infer that this can be translated to "Jerga's order is type 1, and gods' orders are superior, so they have to be type 1 too". The second scan is odd, since it isn't saying that Jerga's order is a fragment of a greater order, just that Jerga's magic had become a fragment of the order of the world (which is Jerga's source).

In short, it is the OP's belief that the two statements comparing Jerga's order indicate all other order is superior to a type 1 concept, while I believe both statements should not be used in this way as they do not elaborate on the nature of the superiority. Thus, in my opinion it would be best to index each individual order separately, rather than attempting to generalize all of them.

Unfortunately I have to disagree, even without those scans I would be inclined to think that different orders are generally the same "type" of concept but the scans, for me at least, seal it.

Order as Fate

The OP originally proposed fate manipulation as an extension order because of this, where order is equated with providence. The OP also said they'd remove this part from the original proposals, but they still haven't done that?

There is also the repeated idea that gods control the fates of those below them, as shown here and here. The scans speak for themselves, I think, so there's not much I can add here.

Finally, it is stated that when Abernyu died, the order of destruction fell alongside her. This caused destruction itself to halt, preventing those who should have died from dying, and those who should've fallen to ruin survived. The idea here is that, because these people were destined to die, and that the alteration of order changed their fate, order should constitute fate manipulation.

My issues are as follows. First is that "providence" just refers to divine protection, not any sort of manipulation of fate.

Secondly, I'll start with the second batch of scans. These mostly state that the order of the gods is the absolute, unchangeable force. While that may support fate manipulation, they fit law manipulation equally well, so from my perspective it seems more like it's talking about the laws gods impose on the world. The first scan is definitely fate manipulation, but the big issue is that at no point does it say that order and fate are the same thing, just that gods control fate.

For the final part, it's a simple matter of the concept of destruction ceasing, thereby preventing things from being destroyed. This is not fate manipulation, it's more akin to someone dropping a plate and then "changing the future" by not being able to eat off the plate after the fact. If a concept doesn't exist, then the things relying on that concept will not work, extending into the future, though this is by no means controlling fate.

I'm also aware that Dereck has posted scans debunking this point. However, these come from the web novel version of Maou Gakuin, and as the page currently indexed is exclusively for the light novel version, those scans should not be used.

I agree, I do not think that the evidence provided is enough to indicate that the Gods can manipulate fate in order to dictate how events will play out.

Power Modification

This hasn't been discussed at all, so no defense from the OP has been made. In this scan, Anos was able to make the order of destruction his own, by taking the power leaking from Abernyu and creating Venuzdonoa with it. The issue is, Abernyu is dead, so this is more like taking an ambient magical phenomena and manipulating it, not modifying someone else's power.

I agree. This doesn't seem to fit the intention described on the Power Modification page.

Power Modification is able to change the function of an ability in some shape or form, such as turning superhuman strength into superhuman speed. It should be noted that users must be able to interfere with the nature of the ability itself for this to be listed in their profile.

He didn't do any of those things, he just sealed someone's power in an item.

Resisting Order via Resisting Time Stop

In these scans, Anos is able to resist Ivis' time stop. The argument from the OP is that, since Ivis utilises the order of time, then Anos would have to be resisting the effects of order as well (granting resistance to CM1/2, fate hax, law hax, and so on). This is further supported by the statement that Ivis created a new world where time is frozen, implying the institution of a new reality with differing laws, and Anos was able to resist the laws being imposed on him.

My contentions are twofold. For the latter, it is a common turn of phrase to say a time stop creates a "world where time has frozen" (even my own verse does this, for example). This is not intended as a way of saying a new reality with different laws was created, so it shouldn't really apply here. Of course, it isn't really a "world" at all, just a bubble shaped AoE. The former is more complicated, since we don't typically give resistances to the mechanisms of a power source, rather, we give resistances based on the actual applications of the power source. For example, characters in Guilty Gear and Digimon use information manipulation as a basis for magic, but not every character who resists a magical attack also resists information manipulation. Or for another example, characters in Touhou (please do not derail this thread talking about Touhou again, this is just an example) create attacks by giving concepts to them, but that doesn't mean every character who resists a regular attack would resist concept manipulation.

I agree, this doesn't appear sound to me. Particularly that "this is not a new reality with different laws" it is explicitly described as a spell that freezes time in a certain area.

"It was a greater magic spell to stop time."

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Unfortunately I have to disagree, even without those scans I would be inclined to think that different orders are generally the same "type" of concept but the scans, for me at least, seal it.

Also this is how it works Jerga CM type 1 who become a fragment of order < Other orders < Nosgalia who created Jerga and other orders < Creators and destruction Order

I agree, I do not think that the evidence provided is enough to indicate that the Gods can manipulate fate in order to dictate how events will play out.

I am fine to concede and drop the fate Manipulation argument for others order for now until LN catches up but Aberneyu should get fate manipulation. It's Clearly mentioned about she was cause of all death because her order was removed people who was supposed to die didn't die. It's clear cut statement

I agree. This doesn't seem to fit the intention described on the Power Modification page.

Power Modification is able to change the function of an ability in some shape or form, such as turning superhuman strength into superhuman speed. It should be noted that users must be able to interfere with the nature of the ability itself for this to be listed in their profile.

Order of destruction is concept, law manipulation but Anos turned into Logic Manipulation.

Anos took away the Order of Destruction, turned it into something that destroys logic. The power to destroy logic isn't something the Order of destruction is capable of. So yes, the power of the Order of destruction was modified

Gods were Never stated to manipulate Logic. It's specific ability only exists for Venozdonor.

I agree, this doesn't appear sound to me. Particularly that "this is not a new reality with different laws" it is explicitly described as a spell that freezes time in a certain area.

"It was a greater magic spell to stop time."

• Gods are order and has different order for each of them. As you can check each gods has their own order / Laws and Concepts.
• Anos himself can Manipulate Concepts of time and Can even mess with worlds Laws hence Eugola Raviaz appeared and tried to eliminate him and keep the Order of the world intact.
• Eugola Raviaz scythe can manipulate time better than Anos Rivide which is already stated to be capable of Manipulating Concepts of time.
• As for Eugola Raviaz has Order of time he should be capable of imposing Laws/Rules based on order of time
• The Bubble which he created is not AOE attack. In the scan it states as whoever enters that white world or whatever exists in the white world time gest frozen for eternity. It's clearly manipulating rules. Author doesn't always explicitly states That feat was done by order or this feat is don't by order. That time stop is done as Last resort by Eugola Raviaz and states to be ultimate spell from him who has the power to manipulate the order. I do believe this is logical to claim that was based on Law Manipulation.

 

[Dog3352]

I agree, this doesn't appear sound to me. Particularly that "this is not a new reality with different laws" it is explicitly described as a spell that freezes time in a certain area.

"It was a greater magic spell to stop time."

It's not about power mechanism (not like Digimon).
Gods' abilities are literally order, don't "have" order (like spells having information) or anything like that, abilities are literally order.

time stop of the the God of Time: Order
rewind Time of the of God Time: Order
Sun of Destruction of the God of destruction: Order
Abilities of Gods = Order

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Unfortunately I have to disagree, even without those scans I would be inclined to think that different orders are generally the same "type" of concept but the scans, for me at least, seal it.

I agree, I do not think that the evidence provided is enough to indicate that the Gods can manipulate fate in order to dictate how events will play out.


I agree. This doesn't seem to fit the intention described on the Power Modification page.

Power Modification is able to change the function of an ability in some shape or form, such as turning superhuman strength into superhuman speed. It should be noted that users must be able to interfere with the nature of the ability itself for this to be listed in their profile.

He didn't do any of those things, he just sealed someone's power in an item.


I agree, this doesn't appear sound to me. Particularly that "this is not a new reality with different laws" it is explicitly described as a spell that freezes time in a certain area.

"It was a greater magic spell to stop time."

Thanks for the evaluation. As for CM, it isn't so much a matter of orders being the same type or not, it's about what kind of superiority is being talked about here. Gods' orders being greater than Jerga's order could either be interpreted as being a higher degree of concept (which would be type 1), or be referring to the scope each order has, their importance to the world at large (a world will probably be fine without the hatred of demons, but a world without the concept of life or existence is doomed), or so on. So I'd prefer if more elaboration on how gods' orders are superior to Jerga's is given, though I won't push the issue further.

EDIT: I slightly misunderstood your point, so while I still think Jerga fusing with the world's order should single it out as unique, I'm not gonna force you to debate it or whatever.

That aside, I'll go back through the thread to try and get a tally on what staff opinions are.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Type 1 CM

Agree: @Deagonx, @Dereck03, @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Theglassman12, @Qawsedf234
Neutral: @DarkGrath

Power Modification

Agree: @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Deagonx, @Qawsedf234
Neutral:

Fate Manipulation

Agree: @Dereck03, @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Theglassman12, @Deagonx, @DarkGrath
Neutral: @Qawsedf234

Resistance to Order via Resistance to Time Stop

Agree: @Dereck03
Disagree: @Deagonx, @Theglassman12
Neutral: @Qawsedf234, @Elizhaa, @DarkGrath

A lot of people here have said things along the line of "if (x) is true, then I could accept ( y )", which I've listed as being neutral. Those in the neutral section should probably elaborate more on their opinions if they are willing. With all that said, more input is probably needed, except for maybe resistance to order.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Dereck agrees with CM type 1, Elisha said others things are fine means she also agrees. She was specifically agreed with Oblivion. I don't see a reason for to put her in neutral.

Dereck and Elizha should be put under CM type 1 agreed list as they agreed with UMR interpretation and explanation.
Dark is not disagreed she was literally arguing with us until yesterday. She also asked a question and I answered in otherwords that's still neutral for now.

I am pretty sure Dereck later Changed his agreement towards timestop. I will check that

Type 1 CM

Agree: @Deagonx
Disagree: @Theglassman12, @Qawsedf234, @DarkGrath(?)
Neutral: @Elizhaa

Power Modification

Agree: @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Deagonx
Neutral:

Fate Manipulation

Agree: @Dereck03, @Elizhaa
Disagree: @Theglassman12, @Deagonx, @DarkGrath
Neutral: @Qawsedf234

Resistance to Order via Resistance to Time Stop

Agree:
Disagree: @Deagonx, @Theglassman12, @Dereck03
Neutral: @Qawsedf234, @Elizhaa, @DarkGrath

A lot of people here have said things along the line of "if (x) is true, then I could accept ( y )", which I've listed as being neutral. Those in the neutral section should probably elaborate more on their opinions if they are willing. Elizhaa also said that Jerga's order would be type 1, but did not comment on if all order is type 1, so I have listed them as neutral as well. With all that said, more input is probably needed, except for maybe resistance to order.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dereck agrees with CM type 1, Elisha said others things are fine means she also agrees. She was specifically agreed with Oblivion. I don't see a reason for to put her in neutral.

Dereck and Elizha should be put under CM type 1 agreed list as they agreed with UMR interpretation and explanation.
Dark is not disagreed she was literally arguing with us until yesterday. She also asked a question and I answered in otherwords that's still neutral for now.

I am pretty sure Dereck later Changed his agreement towards timestop. I will check that

I missed Dereck, sorry about that. I know Elizhaa said other things were fine, which is why I put them down as agree for fate manipulation and power mod. They did not elaborate on whether or not they thought all order was type 1, since that's what's being debated, so until they do that, I will put them in neutral. Dark's most recent posts on the matter were somewhat unclear so I've moved her to neutral. She's free to elaborate more if she wants. Upon closer inspection, Dereck did in fact change his vote so I've updated the vote tally to reflect that.

 

[Deagonx]

I missed Dereck, sorry about that. I know Elizhaa said other things were fine, which is why I put them down as agree for fate manipulation and power mod. They did not elaborate on whether or not they thought all order was type 1, since that's what's being debated, so until they do that, I will put them in neutral.

@DarkGrath @Elizhaa can you clarify your views above so we can get a more accurate tally?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Snip.

I would like to hear your opinion for my refutal regarding power modification and fate manipulation only for Aberneyu. Venozdonor already has a statement in the profile it's just not updated so it shouldn't be controversial.

Also Eugola Raviaz a God who is narratively stated to be manipulate order = laws and concepts of time which anos can also use.

Order of destruction is concept, law manipulation but Anos turned into Logic Manipulation.

Gods were Never stated to manipulate Logic. It's specific ability only exists for Venozdonor.

• Gods are order and has different order for each of them. As you can check each gods has their own order / Laws and Concepts.
• Anos himself can Manipulate Concepts of time and Can even mess with worlds Laws hence Eugola Raviaz appeared and tried to eliminate him and keep the Order of the world intact.
• Eugola Raviaz scythe can manipulate time better than Anos Rivide which is already stated to be capable of Manipulating Concepts of time.
• As for Eugola Raviaz has Order of time he should be capable of imposing Laws/Rules based on order of time
• The Bubble which he created is not AOE attack. In the scan it states as whoever enters that white world or whatever exists in the white world time gest frozen for eternity. It's clearly manipulating rules. Author doesn't always explicitly states That feat was done by order or this feat is don't by order. That time stop is done as Last resort by Eugola Raviaz and states to be ultimate spell from him who has the power to manipulate the order. I do believe this is logical to claim that was based on Law Manipulation.