[FINALS] Asuna Kamakura & Javen vs Laser Frogman and Dr. Hecate [0-0-0]

[VeneficaAuthor]

This sort of just... works in asuna's favor then, considering that danger sense is asuna's instincts telling her that someone wants to or is about to harm her in some way. She learned from experience in her previous life really well This will essentially just help her see them coming better lol

This goes both ways, Frogman has his precog organ and his brain is one with Hecate's, essentially both of them have an even better danger sense. Hecate is capable of sifting through a sextillion simulations (yes that is the real number) and with the precognition organ she should be able to replicate that feat even without the Metal Titan. If she can even do a tiny fraction of that, which should be novice work for her, she'll be in good shape to find the right combinations and possibilities to win the match

Either way, Both asuna & Javen have the range to fight well outside of 4000km, so the battlefield mapping thing won't be a big deal. Plus, if asuna has [Supercharge] active then hecate will have less time to react to any incoming attacks she can see with it, reducing it's effectiveness greatly. I know that hecate can get faster too, but she has a much harder time controlling herself at max speed, so unlike cobalt i don't think it'd be as effective despite the gap being closed more.

Hecate has a 50 times speed amp so at best Asuna would have a two times speed, but Hecate also has an even greater version of Speed Boost which has been described similarly to teleporting and is spammable in any direction in her Golden mech, so Asuna isn't actually faster Plus Max Charge gets her to 125, surpassing Asuna's 100 times speed, so she's actually the fastest one here. But it is harder to control, this would mostly be for dodging. Frogman's cells and communication/precog should help her there though, and she may not need it since speed boost seems more than enough to dodge Asuna and javen's stuff

[Negate] Is basically a status effect, it doesn't really need to land, it's not a projectile lol

Bruh even after all this time it's still not clear what Negate actually is. If it's not a projectile, but a status effect, you still need to land the thing, how else is it gonna take effect? Unless it's automatic and in that case what is the range? And what is the proof it gets around Hecate's extremely advanced tech even if it is automatic? Even if it can get around her mechs natural coding, the Tomo Barriers have power null.

It's never specified how many golden-fire lasers there are, though. Unless there are more than tens-of-thousands of them i don't think they could hit even one asuna in this key, and this assuming she just dodges and doesn't use any of her skills to help her Even if it was for defensive purposes only, asuna can still bend her attacks around them to land hits, especially if she uses her speed amps to get much faster than hecate could react to stop them

• Homing Attack (All adventurers can manipulate their magic in any way they like/are capable of, Including changing an attacks direction.)

Even if there weren't that many, this underestimates Hecate pretty hard lol. All of her lasers have super homing tech/anti-dodge tech stacked on top of it, which I said even Class Z Tk is incapable of diverting, Frogman's precog assisting Hecate alongside Hecate's impossible intelligence and scanning systems should be very capable of hitting Asuna. In the Golden Mech, Hecate's danmaku surpasses all of her previous Mechs and is simply more advanced overall, even the Slimy Mk. 1 is equal to a one woman army, which is bare minimum thousands of attacks. But in the Golden Mech, tens of thousands is easily possible, this is how she starts the Golden Tornado Flarathon. The real kicker, however, is that Tomo using this mech was able to hit Blood Sea Soldiers (AND FOR THE LAST TIME, THEY HAVE PRECOG TOO, LITERALLY ABLE TO SEE ALL ATTACKS IN THEIR MINDS BEFORE THEY OCCUR, IT'S BASICALLY EXACTLY WHAT ASUNA DOES), and he again is just a regular dude, literally thousands of times lesser than Hecate in all ways. The only thing similar was the mech speed but Hecate is able to persoanlly curve these even further to hit opponents. Even Danger Sense will hardly help Asuna.

Asuna's danger sense can cover for her and javen if hecate is about to use the sound waves. Even if she can't resist or willpower through it, she'll have time to avoid them, so they won't exactly be the most useful here if they never land, or if javen uses his imagination manifestation to make some noise-cancelling earmuffs for both of them to mitigate the effects of it by drowning out the noise of it. And there are many earmuffs out there that specifically drown out high-frequency noises like hecate's ability specifies. This is definitely something that Javen's Imagination Manifestation can do, and probably better. I think asuven will be able to get around this easily.

Precog will tell Hecate and Frogman about this (plus Hecate knows all of Javen's abilities immediately anyway), so she's more than able to just look for the proper opening. It's almost impossible to overstate how much smarter Frogate is than Asunaven they will be more than cappable of planning around nearly all possibilities, even if they lacked Frogman's precognition.

Plus, as far as i know, the spagmatrons lack any resistance to javen's corruption, so if he unleashes a flurry of attacks with the crimson sword, they would instead corrupt the digi-shilds, and thus the spagmatrons with them

• Homing Attack (All adventurers can manipulate their magic in any way they like/are capable of, Including changing an attacks direction.)
• Corruption, Statistics Amplification (Type 1) (Via; The crimson sword, A sword originally from his ancestors, who put it in a magic stone to prevent anyone from picking it up other than the family bloodline, The crimson sword is a powerful weapon that corrupts anyone's physical body and depending on the way you use it you might either use the corruption to your will and gradually make you stronger, or fall to it as your demise, Luckily for the Everywhere hero he knows how to control it! and uses it as his primary weapon when it comes to it, the attacks it does can also corrupt people as long as it comes from the sword itself)

Not if Hecate were to use Golden Bubbles, which these could only pass through if they could affect things at a level even beyond sub-atomic. Golden Bubbles also protect from Blood Sea Soldiers so arguing that the slashes would corrupt them wouldn't work either

Mostly valid, but there are several ambiguities here:
Jack could barely overcome it with willpower as he was over million of times stronger in stats than Frogman, combined with the fact he was a low sin-meter. This means only Super Javen can do something similar here (with the extreme effort put into moving), yet Asuna will still be held back by a solid interference of the fear at the molecule level and stunning

I noticed a distinct lack of mentioning of this here. It'll be difficult for Asuna and Javen to move at all even when they are low-sin meter and all that. The nearly equal stats with Asuna makes even the slightest movements for her extreme, it'll feel like she's being intensely weighted down.

Also, adding onto what Rayfire said, similar with what was mentioned about Cobalt, if all else were to fail, Javen could probably just plop giant stars down and boil Frogate. I'm not entirely sure if they have as good of resistances or ways around Javen spawning stars like what he did with Cold Destiny. Heck. I don't think Frogman has a reliable counter to that given that, from what I've seen of his profile, he doesn't have a solid resistance to it. Best I saw was a flame that permanently burns and destroys a person's body, but that isn't too impressive, and sounds more Hax based rather than temperature based.

There are reasons why this wouldn't work, but that's for Froggy to explain

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Fair. I'm just saying that it's technically a wincon for them. But if we can find more wincons for Asunaven, the method I mentioned would end up backing up the other wincons for justifying an Asunaven W.

If Asuna and Javen win you need to take back everything you said about Frogate lol

 

[SSB64]

If Asuna and Javen win you need to take back everything you said about Frogate lol

Yeah. I'll definitely concede on that point if Asunaven win, but it's unlikely. After all, if Frogate can counter a literally undefeated character+ backup in Javen in practically every way shape and form, I feel like that's grounds for a Frogate DQ, especially due to what I mentioned back in the Semi-Finals with them having no real counters other than Dio + Clover.

 

[Rayfire]

Hecate has a 50 times speed amp so at best Asuna would have a two times speed, but Hecate also has an even greater version of Speed Boost which has been described similarly to teleporting and is spammable in any direction in her Golden mech, so Asuna isn't actually faster Plus Max Charge gets her to 125, surpassing Asuna's 100 times speed, so she's actually the fastest one here. But it is harder to control, this would mostly be for dodging. Frogman's cells and communication/precog should help her there though, and she may not need it since speed boost seems more than enough to dodge Asuna and javen's stuff

Hecate wouldn't really have any significant speed advantage in this way though, it's only 1.25x, nowhere near enough to blitz, plus it's made pretty clear that it's harder for her to control Plus, RE could come in handy here, as asuna would now have something to adapt to, and even if she couldn't do this for whatever reason, asuna is already used to fighting people faster than her, though in more extreme cases like with haruka she does need precog to carry her, although hecate shouldn't be this quick. So this wouldn't be anything new to the duo, at least for asuna.

Speed Boost sounded like a good option on paper, but after checking hecates profile it's not exactly constant. It's only for "brief bursts" which kinda implies that it doesn't really last that long at all, so it's not a very good long-term option, and even then, an advantage is an advantage

With Lightning Boosters, which are all across her body, which vastly boost her speed for brief bursts, up to 50 times speed.

Plus, hecate's ally, frogman, would still be much slower without any amps of his own, so asuven will see him and the spagmatrons like snails. So hecate will be on her own unless she has power bestowal in the way that asuna does to help javen out.

Even if there weren't that many, this underestimates Hecate pretty hard lol. All of her lasers have super homing tech/anti-dodge tech stacked on top of it, which I said even Class Z Tk is incapable of diverting, Frogman's precog assisting Hecate alongside Hecate's impossible intelligence and scanning systems should be very capable of hitting Asuna. In the Golden Mech, Hecate's danmaku surpasses all of her previous Mechs and is simply more advanced overall, even the Slimy Mk. 1 is equal to a one woman army, which is bare minimum thousands of attacks. But in the Golden Mech, tens of thousands is easily possible, this is how she starts the Golden Tornado Flarathon. The real kicker, however, is that Tomo using this mech was able to hit Blood Sea Soldiers (AND FOR THE LAST TIME, THEY HAVE PRECOG TOO, LITERALLY ABLE TO SEE ALL ATTACKS IN THEIR MINDS BEFORE THEY OCCUR, IT'S BASICALLY EXACTLY WHAT ASUNA DOES), and he again is just a regular dude, literally thousands of times lesser than Hecate in all ways. The only thing similar was the mech speed but Hecate is able to persoanlly curve these even further to hit opponents. Even Danger Sense will hardly help Asuna.

I have to ask, is it even in-character for hecate to use them this quickly? I know i tend to consider all possibilities but i don't find this likely. I don't think asuna or javen are anything like the people who sent her to the institution

Either way, i think you've forgotten that moving around at higher speed and precog aren't asuna's only methods of dodging, i mentioned before that this is assuming she only does that Not only do skills like [Intangible] make asuna impossible to touch even with non-physical interaction (Although it only lasts for a brief period of time to compensate like other skills) but asuna can also use skills like [Fortune] to improve her and javen's odds of dodging it, as well as simply sending the lasers through riftways, likely back towards herself or frogman in the process, Etc. Even if asuna's precog is inferior, she still has it at the end of the day and knows when she simply can't dodge something and will use other methods to work around it instead.

I noticed a distinct lack of mentioning of this here. It'll be difficult for Asuna and Javen to move at all even when they are low-sin meter and all that. The nearly equal stats with Asuna makes even the slightest movements for her extreme, it'll feel like she's being intensely weighted down.

Jack could still move as a low-sin meter even without supernatural willpower or resistance to fear. Froggy said this. Considering that asuna has massively more willpower than conventional supwill combined with already having a fear resistance (Which on it's own doesn't help much, but it adds up) I think asuna should still be able to move pretty much normally. Froggy literally said that it can be "Mostly" overcome with strong willpower already, which implies that it helps massively. And asuna has much more than just strong willpower lol

He would still end up itchingly paralyzed and likely slowed down in movement from Conceptual Fear, but he should move. Can he use wind manip to consistently reflect the air balls getting reflected again at faster speeds/rewinded in time, in this state?

Plus, i feel like this also works in their favor, as it makes javen in particular more likely to use lethal methods, so if anything the conceptual fear just tempts them to do this more. Jack didn't have supwill but could still move according to froggy, even if difficult. Meanwhile Willpower will make it easier for javen in comparison.

 

[SSB64]

asuna is already used to fighting people faster than her, though in more extreme cases like with haruka she does need precog to carry her, although hecate shouldn't be this quick. So this wouldn't be anything new to the duo, at least for asuna.

The issue with this is that Hecate has handled Precog from people that are superior in Precog to Asuna (As Venefica mentioned before), so that might partly nullify its usefulness for the fight. Asuna will have to purely rely on instinct to dodge and counter for this it seems.

 

[SSB64]

Not to mention, if Hecate is as smart as it's stated, would that not just mean that Hecate could end up predicting Asunaven's moves while also having the sheer intellect to mostly counter whatever move Asuna tries to pull?

 

[Rayfire]

Precog will tell Hecate and Frogman about this (plus Hecate knows all of Javen's abilities immediately anyway), so she's more than able to just look for the proper opening. It's almost impossible to overstate how much smarter Frogate is than Asunaven they will be more than cappable of planning around nearly all possibilities, even if they lacked Frogman's precognition.

They might know about [Playback], but again neither of them actually have type 1 acausality or any feats of remembering time reversals at all like asuna does. Frogman and hecate might be able to make complex plans, but they can only go for one plan of attack at a time. So there's no reason to think that asuna couldn't fix her mistake with this like usual if she can't immediately get herself and javen out of a sticky situation despite their defensive ailities

The issue with this is that Hecate has handled Precog from people that are superior in Precog to Asuna (As Venefica mentioned before), so that might partly nullify its usefulness for the fight. Asuna will have to purely rely on instinct to dodge and counter for this it seems.

I did mention that asuna in particular has numerous other ways of avoiding things beyond speed and precognition above, lol, she has javen to help her out as well and his imagination manifestatio nis pretty versatile, plus his explosive aura can blow attacks away whenever.

Not to mention, if Hecate is as smart as it's stated, would that not just mean that Hecate could end up predicting Asunaven's moves while also having the sheer intellect to mostly counter whatever move Asuna tries to pull?

Hecate won't consistently be faster though. Her speed amps are either not very long-lasting or hard to control too which limits it's effectiveness too. Imagine trying to track two people who are much faster than you, and one of them can get faster in response to any speed advantage you do get Making hundreds or thousands of clones will also split hecates prowess too, since she'd have lots to keep track of, plus frogman won't really be able to help her unless he can overcome the speed gap somehow.

It's also entirely possible that javen just... absorbs some of their powers too. Without any resistance to power mimicry, let alone absorption as far as i can remember, so if hecate's speed amps are gone this will make it even harder. Asuna can also make pseudo-versions of hecate and frogmans' abilities too which will help too, even if they aren't as good, so the immediate info analysis won't help them the entire fight because of this, as Asuna & Javen would constantly be adapting.

• Power Mimicry(In Volume 1, Chapter 3, Asuna was able to reverse-engineer Shizu’s thunder magic mid-fight, despite having limited knowledge of magic itself, to create her own personal and ‘better’ versions of the skills within it, such as being able to upgrade turbocharge to supercharge. Asuna has also demonstrated the ability to mimic complex skills, like chidori’s playback, although a more limited version of it, and is often regarded as a ‘quick learner’.)
  • Power Creation (Commonly being inspired from her friends’ skills or other outside sources, Asuna can create various new skills, and even learn new magic types in the middle of a fight or on the spot. Though this is typically for basic skills only, due to asuna’s relative inexperience. However, Asuna has shown the capability to learn much more complex skills, such as [Playback] or [Fortune] before over slightly longer periods of time.)
• Power Absorption (Absorbed An villains Power of Mind Control)

 

[SSB64]

Asuna can also make pseudo-versions of hecate and frogmans' abilities too which will help too, even if they aren't as good, so the immediate info analysis won't help them the entire fight because of this, as Asuna & Javen would constantly be adapting.

In Asuna's case, based on what I've seen, it seems to only copy magic techniques seeing as it's described as copying magic. Hecate's technology isn't magic or desires like Willpower, so I'm not sure if Asuna's power copying translates to non-magic based attacks and abilities. Maybe Frogman's stuff can get copied though.

 

[Rayfire]

In Asuna's case, based on what I've seen, it seems to only copy magic techniques seeing as it's described as copying magic. Hecate's technology isn't magic or desires like Willpower, so I'm not sure if Asuna's power copying translates to non-magic based attacks and abilities. Maybe Frogman's stuff can get copied though.

I more-so meant she'd be inspired by hecate and frogman's abilities, similair to how she was with shizu's thudner magic. It'd obviously be fairly basic at first given she still has trouble with luck/time magic, but with accelerated development i don't find it unlikely they'd get better overtime. Asuna is obviously a lot smarter than me in terms of battle iq so i don't entirely know what she'd make, but it's still something that could prove useful unless either of them also have RE to even the odds. I'll probably elaborate on this further later on

I've been reminded by vene of their power mimicry resistances, so javen can't absorb their abilities, but if asuna develops any inspired skills enough, she can alow javen to absorb them so he can use them at a stellar/4-A scale, making it even more potent

 

[SSB64]

I more-so meant she'd be inspired by hecate and frogman's abilities, similair to how she was with shizu's thudner magic. It'd obviously be fairly basic at first given she still has trouble with luck/time magic, but with accelerated development i don't find it unlikely they'd get better overtime. Asuna is obviously a lot smarter than me in terms of battle iq so i don't entirely know what she'd make, but it's still something that could prove useful unless either of them also have RE to even the odds. I'll probably elaborate on this further later on

I've been reminded by vene of their power mimicry resistances, so javen can't absorb their abilities, but if asuna develops any inspired skills enough, she can alow javen to absorb them so he can use them at a stellar/4-A scale, making it even more potent

Aight. We'll see with what Froggy and/or Venefica have to say about it.

 

[Froggytron]

The issue with this is that Hecate has handled Precog from people that are superior in Precog to Asuna (As Venefica mentioned before), so that might partly nullify its usefulness for the fight. Asuna will have to purely rely on instinct to dodge and counter for this it seems.

Frogman's precog is blurrily and can be roughly comparable to Bill Cipher's in in-character aspect, Frogman doesn't use it unless really desperate / there are notably high sin-meters in front of him / he sees with Energy Vision a RE user powering up every micro-second which soon would outgrow him. There are not much participants fulfilling these, and if, many would push Frogman into this later in the fight.

 

[Froggytron]

Before any reply to this, got to make some admiration for Rayfire taking this brutal 1v2 on himself Both Colonel and Peppy did withdraw just after a few messages (which were a fraction of what this is), and I had serious troubles taking 1v2 with Stage3/Gunnix against Diamond Drone + Vene arguing (where as well the arguments were bellow third/half of what this is), Ray still keeps going

Unless frogman remembers other time reversals, i don't think he'll remember asuna using them.

Frogman doesn't even have though, even when not pushed to use precog, his observation capabilities, analytical precog (trained in reading opponents for over 20K+ years of constant battles), and Red Laser eyes (capable of literally reading through characters when he stares at them, like advanced X-ray) are sufficient to read whenever Asuna instantly gets some knowledge, and read how much knowledge she has => how many playbacks did she take (namely as Hecate granted him the knowledge of her arsenal at the fight start), Frogman can work with this and make calculated moves absolutely terrible to Asuna

Asuna won’t be the only one attacking though. Her attacks might become minuscule if this happens, but Javen, on the other hand, should definitely still be able to harm frogman massively. His ap is way too huge of a gap for this

That's for what the Digi-Shield reflection is useful though

For the above reasons asuna will remember the rewinds and find a way around it. Unless it's just rewinding specific things, in which case, all it will take is a 3-second use of [Negate], and the cooldowns will stick on the spagmatrons once it's out of the scope of frogman's rewind.

What [Negate] does and how, with which feats? The entire point of Red Laser is being ‚undeniable‘, further with its strongest spell (where 2/3 sec rewind is the perfect example of a KEY spell), this [negate] simply aims to do this. Given that it’s extremely in character for KEY Red Laser spells to adapt superhard even to affect beings with dimensional gaps of powers (viz peak strengths on the Red Laser Manip page), I see no point why Red Laser wouldn‘t adapt to [Negate] to simply not be influenced by it. It's especially these 100% denying powers the entire FU story shows Red Laser being resistant to.

It's also possible that asuna could just... Throw them away with Class Z TK or Gravity Magic, and into space. I imagine frogman has some way to teleport them back, but having to do that frequently would probably hamper his ability to fight, even if just a little.

Frogman can teleport them back / rewind their positions with 2/3-sec-rewinds/hold them with their own class Z TK, such a repetitive task wouldn't tire Frogman.

This also brings me to the fact that asuna could probably tell that stopping time drains frogman of his energy, similair to how she identifies kedrons weaknesses despite having no knowledge of him. So im fairly confident that she could take advantage of this to weaken frogman as well. And If she can master time magic better over the course of this fight with reactive evolution then she could make it last somewhat longer too. It's kind of limited because time magic is fairly complicated for asuna, but i have no doubt her RE wil come into play here for other reasons i've mentioned later as well. This won't work on hecate, but frogman will definitely feel an effect at least somewhat overtime.

It doesn't weaken him, it simply makes body movements more energy-demanding in stopped time. All Frogman has to do is not move and attack with an entire arsenal left of mind-summoning spells, which will be more than sufficient when Asuna cannot stop time for an infinite time.

Again, asuna and javen have type 1 acausality, so she'll still remember any information she has on hecate and frogman at the time. There's also no evidence i can find that frogman can spam this, (In which case i don't think he'd be allowed lol) so it's not like he could put her and javen in a time loop or something even if she couldn't remember time reversals

Frogman can spam smaller 2/3-sec-rewind through his clones, which he has plenty

If that's how it works, then all that's really needed is another usage of [Playback] to prevent that from ever happening if it goes wrong. As explained above the rewind thing wouldn't really work so asuna should be able to get this off and fix her mistake. If there are any gaps in the digi-shilds at all, asuna could bend her attacks to slip through and hit frogman anyway as well, since they are a product of her will and imagination If asuna gets much faster such as using skills like [Supercharge] she'd be able to blitz the spags and frogman too and reach their commander before they can react.

It would be extremely FU story accurate for 2-sec-rewinds to get past Acausality (namely as they can rewind knowledge of Purple skeleton big tier mages, which are masters of many similar spells), yet it's fair there is nothing concrete about acausality-negation of FU pages right now. It’s likely that 2-sec-rewind gets its own section on the Red Laser page sometime to really define its potential.

How can Asuna correct the mistake of throwing attacks? You clearly mentioned that practically all her spells should be like energy^2, meaning the only method she has is to not attack, which leaves Frogman way more room to do dangerous stuff. Digishileds have no gaps, and about speed, suddenly using amps when so close to Spagms and Frogman equals a clear death when most of them use this the moment that happens:

• R.L.Speed Stealing Mode+ - Stage 3 Frogman shows an advanced version of Red Laser Speed Stealing, where he can actually turn the tables to his favour. Accumulating Red Laser projectiles around their speed superior opponent while being within the range enables to 50% divide target's speed multiple times for additional projectiles, to the point bullets/Frogman originally stealing 50% speed show blitzing greatly. This 'table turning' gets further stronger, its range farther and in Stage 2 mentioned 'catching up' way sooner with each additional Frogman stage mastering this further, and showed enabling even the mediocre FU forces to deal with massively faster Purple Skeleton space dragons.

To reduce her speed to an insignificant amount enabling to spam durability negation hits on her (for example for hundreds of Spagms to layer thousands of Laser Bubbles on her with guaranteed hits due to summoning hundreds of "Digi-Shild"s on her) so hard and fast, she doesn't use playback / rifts in time at all (which also has a notable cooldown). Unlike in the battle with Spagm, an extremely experienced Frogman, a master with portals stands here, non-stop having some charged one-hit weapon ready (charged Red Laser spiked glove / Red Saber to be drawn out) to use through a portal once he sees a sufficient opening. He can block Riftways with Red Laser Portals (which in the entire FU story show to negate other portal/teleportation means) and even has a counter to using Playback when it wouldn't be in cooldown:

• limited Mind Manipulation reduces up to 40% of the opponent's brain-power by focusing on them, adding 20% with each minute passed (this effect gets slower with more AP the opponent has and strongly speeds up otherwise, this debuff cannot be cured instantly and mind manipulation immunities only slowes it)

Through this he can delay Asuna using Playback for the instakill from portal/thousands of Laser Bubbles to simply slay her, when being movement-stopped in this position (and to not forget, this is a Stage3 spell, it's greatly buffed in Stage4)
I see this as a decently likely wincoin against Asuna, leaving just Javen standing.

Plus, as far as i know, the spagmatrons lack any resistance to javen's corruption, so if he unleashes a flurry of attacks with the crimson sword, they would instead corrupt the digi-shilds, and thus the spagmatrons with them

• Homing Attack (All adventurers can manipulate their magic in any way they like/are capable of, Including changing an attacks direction.)
• Corruption, Statistics Amplification (Type 1) (Via; The crimson sword, A sword originally from his ancestors, who put it in a magic stone to prevent anyone from picking it up other than the family bloodline, The crimson sword is a powerful weapon that corrupts anyone's physical body and depending on the way you use it you might either use the corruption to your will and gradually make you stronger, or fall to it as your demise, Luckily for the Everywhere hero he knows how to control it! and uses it as his primary weapon when it comes to it, the attacks it does can also corrupt people as long as it comes from the sword itself)

Javen also doesn't have the same situation with the energy^2 thing, so even if asuna is limited to seeing opportunities only for attacks, javen can keep pressure on the duo by attacking with zero risk of upgrading the spagmatrons.

Javen mentioned that corruption doesn't work on objects/robots, and unlike Frogmen, Spagamtrons are robots. DigiShields are objects.

Plus, once the digi-shilds are actually down, asuna can target them to destroy their soul crystals with her magic, which is certainly similair to energy^2 as far as i can tell at the moment. And with asuna's impossible levels of willpower and sheer AP i don't find it unlikely that she can one-shot a lot of them and get rid of a lot of frogman's defenses that way, especially since they would not resist time stop for example
It's also very likely that asuna could take out the vast majority of spagmatrons with THIS skill, where their commander wouldn't be able to help them...

• Spatial Manipulation & Pocket Reality Manipulation (Via [Barrier of Chaos] Skill. A mimicked version of haruka's Void of Despair. When in adequate range, asuna can entrap opponents in a white space that she can control to her whim. Typically, asuna will unleash a flurry of skills and attacks at random into it, entrapping the target with danmaku-like attacks that are near-impossible to dodge. Like Haruka's [Void of Despair], it is likely that a target must require an incredibly strong will to cancel it out, or otherwise they will face attacks the whole time it is active. However, this is not effective against massively stronger opponents.)

Before Digi-shields are down, 2-sec-rewinds are cast to rewind them, with this teamwork there are hardly any openings (as why coop of Frogmen and FU Androids shows in FU Lore to be as powerful as Jotaro crushing other stands in part3). Even if destroyed, 2-sec-rewinds can return Spagms to an undestroyed state. Mind spells (as 2-sec-rewind) work even in stopped time, timestop doesn't help much here.

With a lack of supernatural willpower on spagmatrons page, even if they survive the onslaught of attacks from asuna & javen in here, then they still won't be able to get out, so it could effectively work as BFR in this case. So what looks like a good way for Frogman to turn things around would instead be an advantage for asuven, as they would find a way around the spagmatrons... BECAUSE THAT'S HOW A DRILL WORKS!

But it needs to be in range and trap into white space. Are you supposing the Spagms will stand here like stones to get captured by it?

Maybe i'm just mis-interpeting it, but energy^2 definitely seems like a pretty top-tier thing especially when it's stated that willpower is an aspect in FU that cannot be simply negated

Not misinterpreting it, but you don't see that only limited species/plant of top tiers of the verse can use it, and with extreme prep time

Well, without willpower you literally can't use magic at all in PoW, so it's pretty much the source of it

It would still help asuna greatly against Frogman even if she can't get rid of him for good, though. You mentioned that energy^2 can also be used for defensive abilities, so if asuna made a forcefield for example, i have a hard time believing frogman could bust through it for this reason, especially given their roughly equal stats

Nope, willpower is an elegant short-term energy^2 source (which can help you to grow in stats and use bigger attacks), there is nothing about making attacks superior ever mentioned. Energy^2 can be used to make defensive abilities with millions of years of prep time when either Red Laser or Shadow/Light sides are included, the 2 strongest powers in FU reality. That was written in the original reply too
These are giant drawbacks of Red Laser being so undeniable, the price for it's power

Moreover, With asuna's power bestowal, It's possible that javen's moves could be imbued with asuna's own, as in PoW it's essentially a combination of skills. Making it even less likely for frogman to get through if javen puts a forcefield of corruption around them. plus it's sheer durability.

So far Frogman didn't do any offensive moves tho-,

yet Vene is likely to layer on this with some

I should probably ask how well frogmen deal with people that are faster than them. Cause with asuna's amps, her movement and reaction speed will benefit her team greatly, and she can give this to javen temporarily too. Although, i should mention that laser frogman doesn't exactly have higher reaction speeds despite his impressive processing speed, so while that'll help him in intelligence im currently under the assumption that frogman will be blitzed

As mentioned above ^, they absolutely obliterate them with speed-Stealing-Modes+ and uno reverse card speed amps, further with hundreds of Spagms able to use this being so close.

Phew, this was very long, I think it'll be better to rI espond to the key points rather than everything at once, otherwise this'll be very slow and wear everyone out lol

I tried to reply shorter, but not sure if I really succeeded

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Hecate wouldn't really have any significant speed advantage in this way though, it's only 1.25x, nowhere near enough to blitz, plus it's made pretty clear that it's harder for her to control Plus, RE could come in handy here, as asuna would now have something to adapt to, and even if she couldn't do this for whatever reason, asuna is already used to fighting people faster than her, though in more extreme cases like with haruka she does need precog to carry her, although hecate shouldn't be this quick. So this wouldn't be anything new to the duo, at least for asuna.

Speed Boost sounded like a good option on paper, but after checking hecates profile it's not exactly constant. It's only for "brief bursts" which kinda implies that it doesn't really last that long at all, so it's not a very good long-term option, and even then, an advantage is an advantage

Being used to fighting faster people doesn’t mean it’s applicable to all cases. Hecate is in the same boat of being ‘used to’ fighting faster opponents, considering that she fought Mechanical Supreme Neso’s ‘Jet Mode’ which makes him WAY faster (in addition to some other methods he has to counter things like Max Charge, which doesn’t have reliable offense anyway, especially against other speed amped enemies) plus fighting groups of opponents like Neso at once, including Neired (extraordinary genius robot) and Despina and Sao. She can control the 50 times amp well enough to fight, at least. How well can Asuna fight someone who is likely better than her at doing that based on feats? Hecate also has adaptation and the starry slimy system constantly scans massive swaths of data and applies instant small improvement across the mech, although likely slower than Asuna’s, but forcing Hecate to regenerate at all makes her durability skyrocket.

Plus Speed Boost is a massive help lol. It’s only in brief bursts because otherwise Hecate could move at 1000+ times speed permanently, it’s an INSANE boost, that’s why it’s basically called teleporting by others who’ve seen it. If she’s speed boosting, even without using any other amps, she’d be blitzing at an insane rate. With her intellect for sheer prediction of movement, insane precision and frogman’s precog combined into her brain through the frogman cells (even if blurry), she can use speed boosting not just for avoiding stuff but also putting herself in perfect position to exploit both Asuna and (especially) javen. She can easily tell the real version of either of them and ignore their clones through her scanners and having marked them using battlefield mapping prior.

They might know about [Playback], but again neither of them actually have type 1 acausality or any feats of remembering time reversals at all like asuna does. Frogman and hecate might be able to make complex plans, but they can only go for one plan of attack at a time. So there's no reason to think that asuna couldn't fix her mistake with this like usual if she can't immediately get herself and javen out of a sticky situation despite their defensive ailities

They can totally go for a bunch of plans at once, Hecate’s brain is literally insane and frogman’s battle ability is capable of reaching high into extraordinary genius and he himself has dozens of clones (not to mention the few of them which are capable of immense damage transferal abilities). Hecate can also manipulate golden fire lasers to basically make clones of herself too (although pretty limited in their movesets since they would be manifested lasers), spamming these and forming hundreds of them is possible and they’ll be physically made of the lasers, so anything which comes close feels their effects. There’s a lot Hecate could do with golden fire laser clones though despite this when utilizing her mind.

I did mention that asuna in particular has numerous other ways of avoiding things beyond speed and precognition above, lol, she has javen to help her out as well and his imagination manifestatio nis pretty versatile, plus his explosive aura can blow attacks away whenever.

Did I not ever mention blood sea soldiers also warp and use portals? Even at an interdimensional range via sending things to the sea of blood, they are actually more similar to Asuna than just the precog these guys are also considered blood sea fodder, and Tomo could land lasers on them despite it all due to the anti-dodge tech which will curve all lasers and missiles or whatever in nearly impossible ways to avoid diversion (constantly swapped around at rapid pace even when blood sea soldiers spammed portals before the lasers even started their twisting movement) also, not sure if the explosive aura is actually gonna be that effective. Hecate is more than able to deal with passive enemy auras, since the Mk. 2 has the ability to actually literally steal enemy auras, like afterwards they just don’t have the aura anymore and she has it. In the Mk. 2, you had to look into its eyes, but the golden mech can sort of just do it immediately, especially if Javen uses it early when they would be close together. Ap difference won’t matter since Javen doesn’t resist that.

Hecate won't consistently be faster though. Her speed amps are either not very long-lasting or hard to control too which limits it's effectiveness too. Imagine trying to track two people who are much faster than you, and one of them can get faster in response to any speed advantage you do get Making hundreds or thousands of clones will also split hecates prowess too, since she'd have lots to keep track of, plus frogman won't really be able to help her unless he can overcome the speed gap somehow

Thousands of things isn’t remotely difficult at all for Hecate, that would be light work even if she was 2 years old her current self can comprehend and go through a sextillion different simulations. Thats 21 zeroes. There’s no amount of moving parts Javen and Asuna can make that Hecate can’t handle, and the same goes for frogman since they are brain connected. Plus again there’s Spagmatron’s, frogman’s own clones, Hecate’s golden fire lasers (of which can be in the tens of thousands and have CRAZY ways to counter being avoided, sent away, and diverted in general, including feats against Class Z TK, teleporting, and portals). Frogman does have ways to overcome the speed gap, as said above.

It's also entirely possible that javen just... absorbs some of their powers too. Without any resistance to power mimicry, let alone absorption as far as i can remember, so if hecate's speed amps are gone this will make it even harder. Asuna can also make pseudo-versions of hecate and frogmans' abilities too which will help too, even if they aren't as good, so the immediate info analysis won't help them the entire fight because of this, as Asuna & Javen would constantly be adapting.

• Power Mimicry(In Volume 1, Chapter 3, Asuna was able to reverse-engineer Shizu’s thunder magic mid-fight, despite having limited knowledge of magic itself, to create her own personal and ‘better’ versions of the skills within it, such as being able to upgrade turbocharge to supercharge. Asuna has also demonstrated the ability to mimic complex skills, like chidori’s playback, although a more limited version of it, and is often regarded as a ‘quick learner’.)
  • Power Creation (Commonly being inspired from her friends’ skills or other outside sources, Asuna can create various new skills, and even learn new magic types in the middle of a fight or on the spot. Though this is typically for basic skills only, due to asuna’s relative inexperience. However, Asuna has shown the capability to learn much more complex skills, such as [Playback] or [Fortune] before over slightly longer periods of time.)
• Power Absorption (Absorbed An villains Power of Mind Control)

We talked about this on discord, neither of Asuna or Javen can copy Hecate or frogman. Making inspirations of anything they do is also a stretch (at least, making anything truly comparable would be) and I don’t think I they’re lasting long enough to get to any point where they’d be similar in prowess. Hecate’s moves are WAY too complex and frogman has an entire rabbit hole of stuff about why red laser abilities can’t be copied by any means, so unless froggy chimes in or if necessary I’ll leave it at that for now.

 

[Yoriichi999]

This really makes me wonder how the teams that I had prepared would have fared.

 

[SSB64]

This really makes me wonder how the teams that I had prepared would have fared.

Considering how OP The Big Four are, In inclined to guess..... Not too well, especially against Frogate.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Before any reply to this, got to make some admiration for Rayfire taking this brutal 1v2 on himself Both Colonel and Peppy did withdraw just after a few messages (which were a fraction of what this is), and I had serious troubles taking 1v2 with Stage3/Gunnix against Diamond Drone + Vene arguing (where as well the arguments were bellow third/half of what this is), Ray still keeps going

Yes I agree, any argument where you are alone against 2+ is super hard

(trust me I know I'm rooting for bowser in the db even when surrounded by eggman fans)

Frogman doesn't even have though, even when not pushed to use precog, his observation capabilities, analytical precog (trained in reading opponents for over 20K+ years of constant battles), and Red Laser eyes (capable of literally reading through characters when he stares at them, like advanced X-ray) are sufficient to read whenever Asuna instantly gets some knowledge, and read how much knowledge she has => how many playbacks did she take (namely as Hecate granted him the knowledge of her arsenal at the fight start), Frogman can work with this and make calculated moves absolutely terrible to Asuna

Hecate won't be able to tell unless Frogman informs her, which I don't know why he wouldn't, be using this he doesn't even need to remember the playback as said, he is more than capable of inferring that it took place, and along with Hecate's mind and ability to go through simulations, the calculated moves from both combatants are very far above Asunaven's intellectual limit so far.

It doesn't weaken him, it simply makes body movements more energy-demanding in stopped time. All Frogman has to do is not move and attack with an entire arsenal left of mind-summoning spells, which will be more than sufficient when Asuna cannot stop time for an infinite time.

Hecate could possibly move him with concentrated air manipulation (specifically used in ways to deal no damage), since all of her abilities work in stopped time as normal. This would be good for getting into better defensive positions if necessary.

How can Asuna correct the mistake of throwing attacks? You clearly mentioned that practically all her spells should be like energy^2, meaning the only method she has is to not attack, which leaves Frogman way more room to do dangerous stuff. Digishileds have no gaps, and about speed, suddenly using amps when so close to Spagms and Frogman equals a clear death when most of them use this the moment that happens:

• R.L.Speed Stealing Mode+ - Stage 3 Frogman shows an advanced version of Red Laser Speed Stealing, where he can actually turn the tables to his favour. Accumulating Red Laser projectiles around their speed superior opponent while being within the range enables to 50% divide target's speed multiple times for additional projectiles, to the point bullets/Frogman originally stealing 50% speed show blitzing greatly. This 'table turning' gets further stronger, its range farther and in Stage 2 mentioned 'catching up' way sooner with each additional Frogman stage mastering this further, and showed enabling even the mediocre FU forces to deal with massively faster Purple Skeleton space dragons.

Or to simply focus efforts on Hecate, but even that much is unwise when she will always be close to Spagmatrons/Frogman, where RL Speed Stealing would remain viable. Suddenly, hitting Asuna is way easier for insane precision Hecate (Threw a needle into a scientist's eye from across the Monarch Institution's main lab, which is a 150 by 150 meter complex and managed to snipe guards from an exceedingly far distance of 4 and a half kilometers with a gun she had not trained with and only had limited experience with, back when she was a kid at Monarch, with these capabilities multiplied basically 1000+ times in Golden Mech, capable of sniping at far longer long range if necessary)

Further with connected minds, Hecate sharing IQ rawpower and data/Starry Slimy System recordings with Frogman can achieve a trump card ability. Using Frogman's limited Power Mimicry (Stage 2: can recreate most of the opponent's weapon effects on own laser weapons upon seeing them), Stage 4 Frogman advancing this way beyond stage 2's utmost limit can gain the means to wield/apply golden fire laser effects himself, using the combined intelligence and sheer ability of Frogman's arsenal to barley get around Hecate's power mimicry resistance. With Golden Fire Laser effects and Frogman possessing a much more superior danmaku attack than anything Hecate has, further combined with RL Speed Stealing Mode and his mind reduction placed on Asuna, Frogman's Laser Storm becomes a good wincon against both enemies.

Combat Stage 4 is superior to Gunnix, who even when non-serious can launch tens of thousands of projectiles (which was stated to be necessary to hit Asuna given her feats of dodging thousands of attacks), and Hecate has this danmaku as well, even Spagmatron can reach these numbers when serious, but a serious Gunnix can launch into the hundreds of thousands. Experienced Stage 4 is the master of Gunnix's, however, scaling well beyond even the serious Gunnix rate of fire, reaching into the millions via Laser Storm, way past the amount of projectiles which Asuna and Javen have the capacity for dodging naturally (I see riftways as the only viable option here), but when combined with RL Speed Stealing and potentially other methods of slowing movement as mentioned above (mind manipulation, perhaps Hecate's Grand Down as well), it's entirely possible to land this Golden Laser hurricane upon both enemies even before a playback. Frogman could also cast DRAGON Sabers through portals as extra pressure, large enough to bite them and tons of clones in a single hit (easily devastating to no precog Javen) and utilizing portals for Hecate's own attacks too. Hecate may not even need her hard to control speed amps (even with movement being only slightly hard to control, the speed of so many projectiles coming from Hecate may lose their effectiveness at homing since she can personally curve them to assist their natural homing abilities, which is why Frogman primarily leads this section of the offensive)

As well during this, Hecate has another power which gives herself abilities from FU, just as she would be giving Frogman the effects of the Golden Fire Lasers. Clearly, Red Laser itself simply cannot be copied, however, Spagmatron, a robot, is on the field. Hecate's Purple Copy scanner can be used to power mimic robots, even their bodies, and when used on one of the hundreds of Spagm grant herself their regenerating shadow liquid limbs, gaining new tentacles and granting her elastic power similar to that of Slimy Mk. 1 and 2, as her copied powers surpass that of the original right away, further with Frogman's instruction and her own smarts/the sheer technological nature of her mech make Hecate much more versatile after copying Spagm. She's basically a 'super Spagmatron' and an honorary member of the FU force

The issue with this is that Hecate has handled Precog from people that are superior in Precog to Asuna (As Venefica mentioned before), so that might partly nullify its usefulness for the fight. Asuna will have to purely rely on instinct to dodge and counter for this it seems.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Even regular human Tomo using the mech could harm precog/portals/teleporting Blood Sea Soldiers, now imagine what giga smart and precise Hecate can do with the same lasers? It becomes extraordinarily hard to dodge, especially when spammed, Asuna has yet to face attacks with anywhere near these homing capabilities, and things like Class Z Tk are already proven practically useless to stop the lasers too, as Hecate's lasers have feats of overcoming it through anti-dodge tech. But as I said if she uses speed amps such projectiles become harder to land (especially at Max Charge, she basically only sends them straight forward at that point), so it's a good thing Frogman is here, or else Hecate is very likely cooked.

 

[SSB64]

(trust me I know I'm rooting for bowser in the db even when surrounded by eggman fans)

Don't worry. I'm rooting Bowser too, though if Eggman wins, I won't mind.

Combat Stage 4 is superior to Gunnix, who even when non-serious can launch tens of thousands of projectiles (which was stated to be necessary to hit Asuna given her feats of dodging thousands of attacks), and Hecate has this danmaku as well, even Spagmatron can reach these numbers when serious, but a serious Gunnix can launch into the hundreds of thousands. Experienced Stage 4 is the master of Gunnix's, however, scaling well beyond even the serious Gunnix rate of fire, reaching into the millions via Laser Storm, way past the amount of projectiles which Asuna and Javen have the capacity for dodging naturally (I see riftways as the only viable option here), but when combined with RL Speed Stealing and potentially other methods of slowing movement as mentioned above (mind manipulation, perhaps Hecate's Grand Down as well), it's entirely possible to land this Golden Laser hurricane upon both enemies even before a playback.

Also, from what I'm reading of Laser Frogman, what's stopping Frogman from negging Asuna's portals directly with the Red Laser Portals? This would lead to Asuna having quite literally no way to dodge millions of projectiles that both home in on her and negate her abilities which would one shot he- Yeah and people probably question why I think Frogate should be booted with Dio/Clover, their only actual counter and who is less broken than them overall and who are three tiers below both of them meaning they should be granted better Hax anyways, also booted.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Also, from what I'm reading of Laser Frogman, what's stopping Frogman from negging Asuna's portals directly with the Red Laser Portals? This would lead to Asuna having quite literally no way to dodge millions of projectiles that both home in on her and negate her abilities which would one shot he- Yeah and people probably think why I think Frogate should be booted with Dio/Clover, their only actual counter and who is less broken than them overall, also booted.

Asuna's riftways stomp in range (interdimensional), would she be able to react on time/defend, despite it being very difficult (it is true red laser portals can counter riftways), she can reach a point which is out of reach for Laser Storm. Just like in the Cobalt match, she can also send clones from this place to carry on the fight for her and she could bring Javen to do the same, she also has Fortune (good probability manipulation, might help in getting a playback off). If this were a guaranteed combo, I would have voted on it.

Plus this is pretty mean to Asuna and Javen, to assume that there is no way out, sure it looks unlikely to escape but Asunaven has survived to this point, if they weren't at least similarly op they'd have lost within the first few messages. You're basically arguing both these teams should be dq'd, but that's not going to happen because it isn't necessary. Clover is basically Asuna but far more op and Dio could blitz every enemy in the tourney and kill them with The World with basically zero resistance, Stands have layered intangibility (no one in the tourney can touch them), etc, there were good reasons why Leo made that decision. Also even Rayfire agreed to and has defended the decision, we've even discussed it privately on discord.

Plus if you were here earlier, I'm sure you'd have had a problem with Dark Delta's ability to send opponents to an inescapable place with no oxygen where they are instantly reduced to dust, yet Asuna and Javen beat him and his teammate. You didn't complain about Max's Help Button (can literally alter the outcome of a battle as a whole), which stomps Hecate in a 1v1 and was a very high-diff match for Frogate, basically only winning because of Frogman's core resistances, plus Asunaven basically cheesed Cobalt with stars despite her immense hax (SURPASSING HECATE) and having a 5-A teammate, and you didn't complain about her either. Again Asunaven can literally spawn stars and defeat most other enemies in a femtosecond just with that alone they don't even need to move! Neither of Frogate can pull such a feat, yet you don't complain about the ones who can.

 

[Rayfire]

I’ll be a minute cause gym & school, but I’ll try to reply as soon as I can

 

[SSB64]

Asuna's riftways stomp in range (interdimensional),

Would they though? Given the nature of the Froggy Universe with its Multiversal conquest, then unless the characters have beyond infinite speed, I would assume that they use interdimensional portals. So when they can negate portals with their own, it's likely that it's referring to interdimensional portals. Even without it, the portals seem to negate other portals by superimposing itself on top of that portal, so Asuna's effective portal range probably wouldn't matter.

Clover is basically Asuna but far more op

Clover would get utterly squished by Asuna similar to how Dio would get roasted alive by Javen, so IDK what point you're trying to make here. If anyone is a superior Asuna, it's Max since he basically has Fortune on steroids, and yet Frogate could beat that.

and Dio could blitz every enemy in the tourney and kill them with The World with basically zero resistance,

Again. Javen, Max, Cobalt, and Laser Frogman all smoke Dio. Plus, I'm pretty sure it was established that The World is of relative speed to Dio, as shown in his profile since both are MFTL normally. Also, uh. Dio was the weakest in the tournament at High 8-C, so he was warranted of that Hax as per the rules, and the same with Clover since they were the second weakest at 8-B.

You didn't complain about Max's Help Button

Okay. This is just a straight up lie. One of the arguments I brought up for Frogate being too OP was Max being a better Clover whom Frogate could beat (And Dio + Clover was the one counter that, so it made no sense to me when Clover was eliminated when Max could do something similar, if not worse.

Plus if you were here earlier, I'm sure you'd have had a problem with Dark Delta's ability to send opponents to an inescapable place with no oxygen where they are instantly reduced to dust, yet Asuna and Javen beat him and his teammate

Okay so Dark Delta could be beaten by Asunaven. Cool. Dio and Clover would lose to that, but cool. I don't see how this helps your case since it seems like it actually helps mine. At best, this just means that Asunaven and Frogate can both be DQ'd since they're both equally cheating, so the finals should've been the two losers of the previous rounds (Of which, Cold Destiny would likely win). My main issue is HOW Frogate got to the Finals. If the two teams want to fight with their OP cheated stuff, they can do it anytime outside of the Tournament. Furthermore, simply beating someone with an OP ability isn't enough grounds for a DQ since it could be that the Non-OP character had the specific counter needed. Frogman simply won because he could tank it.

plus Asunaven basically cheesed Cobalt with stars despite her immense hax (SURPASSING HECATE) and having a 5-A teammate, and you didn't complain about her either. Again Asunaven can literally spawn stars and defeat most other enemies in a femtosecond just with that alone they don't even need to move! Neither of Frogate can pull such a feat, yet you don't complain about the ones who can.

One. They didn't win. They stalemated Cobalt as has been the case before. Two, Javen spawning stars isn't actually that bad considering you said that characters like Cobalt have perfect counters to it (Not to mention, when I brought the star thing up for this fight, you hinted that Frogate counter this too, further proving my point). Not to mention that having modest Haxes is in line with a 4-A since they needs them to fight Tier 3 characters. Plus the fact that, as you mentioned, Dark Delta could simply send Cobalt to that realm you mentioned would get Delta DQ'd since it's that powerful.

 

[Froggytron]

I’ll be a minute cause gym & school, but I’ll try to reply as soon as I can

No need to rush though, I won't be able to properly reply soon, I just used free Monday today (as in this semester's schedule, the school week starts on Tuesday)

 

[Froggytron]

Asuna's riftways stomp in range (interdimensional), would she be able to react on time/defend, despite it being very difficult (it is true red laser portals can counter riftways), she can reach a point which is out of reach for Laser Storm. Just like in the Cobalt match, she can also send clones from this place to carry on the fight for her and she could bring Javen to do the same, she also has Fortune (good probability manipulation, might help in getting a playback off). If this were a guaranteed combo, I would have voted on it.

Plus this is pretty mean to Asuna and Javen, to assume that there is no way out, sure it looks unlikely to escape but Asunaven has survived to this point, if they weren't at least similarly op they'd have lost within the first few messages. You're basically arguing both these teams should be dq'd, but that's not going to happen because it isn't necessary. Clover is basically Asuna but far more op and Dio could blitz every enemy in the tourney and kill them with The World with basically zero resistance, Stands have layered intangibility (no one in the tourney can touch them), etc, there were good reasons why Leo made that decision. Also even Rayfire agreed to and has defended the decision, we've even discussed it privately on discord.

Plus if you were here earlier, I'm sure you'd have had a problem with Dark Delta's ability to send opponents to an inescapable place with no oxygen where they are instantly reduced to dust, yet Asuna and Javen beat him and his teammate. You didn't complain about Max's Help Button (can literally alter the outcome of a battle as a whole), which stomps Hecate in a 1v1 and was a very high-diff match for Frogate, basically only winning because of Frogman's core resistances, plus Asunaven basically cheesed Cobalt with stars despite her immense hax (SURPASSING HECATE) and having a 5-A teammate, and you didn't complain about her either. Again Asunaven can literally spawn stars and defeat most other enemies in a femtosecond just with that alone they don't even need to move! Neither of Frogate can pull such a feat, yet you don't complain about the ones who can.

I honestly believe this is the best description of this tourney's haxxes, and that SSB64 cannot get a more accurate reply to his claims than this. Leo is highly likely to like this too

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Would they though? Given the nature of the Froggy Universe with its Multiversal conquest, then unless the characters have beyond infinite speed, I would assume that they use interdimensional portals. So when they can negate portals with their own, it's likely that it's referring to interdimensional portals. Even without it, the portals seem to negate other portals by superimposing itself on top of that portal, so Asuna's effective portal range probably wouldn't matter.

Check Frogman's range, it doesn't say interdimensional, that's for sure

Clover would get utterly squished by Asuna similar to how Dio would get roasted alive by Javen, so IDK what point you're trying to make here. If anyone is a superior Asuna, it's Max since he basically has Fortune on steroids, and yet Frogate could beat that.

The World blitz/intangibility + Save and Load spam gg's every team with ease

Again. Javen, Max, Cobalt, and Laser Frogman all smoke Dio. Plus, I'm pretty sure it was established that The World is of relative speed to Dio, as shown in his profile since both are MFTL normally. Also, uh. Dio was the weakest in the tournament at High 8-C, so he was warranted of that Hax as per the rules, and the same with Clover since they were the second weakest at 8-B.

You still have to be beatable to most of the combatants in the tourney. You and chariot were bringing up stuff Leo never would have allowed if they'd been said before the tourney or even in match 1. Also The World blitz/intangibility + Save and Load spam gg's every team with ease. You are allowed to be op, duh, that's the point of this tourney, and if Dio and Clover had been paired differently maybe they are still allowed. But together is literally an impossible to stop combo, everyone agreed with this except you

Okay. This is just a straight up lie. One of the arguments I brought up for Frogate being too OP was Max being a better Clover whom Frogate could beat (And Dio + Clover was the one counter that, so it made no sense to me when Clover was eliminated when Max could do something similar, if not worse.

Save and loading destroys the help button plus The World blitzes and he can't even use it. The World blitz/intangibility + Save and Load spam gg again

Okay so Dark Delta could be beaten by Asunaven. Cool. Dio and Clover would lose to that, but cool. I don't see how this helps your case since it seems like it actually helps mine. At best, this just means that Asunaven and Frogate can both be DQ'd since they're both equally cheating, so the finals should've been the two losers of the previous rounds (Of which, Cold Destiny would likely win). My main issue is HOW Frogate got to the Finals. If the two teams want to fight with their OP cheated stuff, they can do it anytime outside of the Tournament. Furthermore, simply beating someone with an OP ability isn't enough grounds for a DQ since it could be that the Non-OP character had the specific counter needed. Frogman simply won because he could tank it.

Not true, The World blitz/intangibility + Save and Load spam gg's them too. Dark Delta wouldn't use it on time because The World negs him upon fight start. Plus arguing both teams are cheating is crazy, just because they are relative to each other in power. The thread has gone on this long, Leo is content with the decision, and Rayfire is clearly more than willing to continue this fight, so at this point even if it was actually fraudulent somehow, it's not that deep and needs to be let go. Further discussion on the matter is just adding more needless drama. i don't understand why tourney's can't just go cleanly through without drama going on, it sucks for everyone involved and nobody appreciates it.

One. They didn't win. They stalemated Cobalt as has been the case before. Two, Javen spawning stars isn't actually that bad considering you said that characters like Cobalt have perfect counters to it (Not to mention, when I brought the star thing up for this fight, you hinted that Frogate counter this too, further proving my point). Not to mention that having modest Haxes is in line with a 4-A since they needs them to fight Tier 3 characters. Plus the fact that, as you mentioned, Dark Delta could simply send Cobalt to that realm you mentioned would get Delta DQ'd since it's that powerful.

But they did win, they were voted to win, the match is added as a win on Asuna and javen's profile, and I conceded to them at the end. They won, there is no 'technically' about it, they just won. And it'll be the same with this match, even though it's starting to look like the same situation where more progress = win. Plus Dark Delta is literally Leo's own guy so I'm not sure why you assume Leo would break their own tourney's rules, but again, at this point it's just needless continued drama that needs to end. It's fine if you feel the way you do even now, but the rest of us still intend to finish out the tourney and we don't intend to leave with ill will towards the tourney or anyone involved.

 

[SSB64]

I honestly believe this is the best description of this tourney's haxxes, and that SSB64 cannot get a more accurate reply to his claims than this. Leo is highly likely to like this too

I already addressed why this makes no sense, and it actually makes Dio + Clover getting Eliminated even worse for Leo to defend.

 

[SSB64]

Check Frogman's range, it doesn't say interdimensional, that's for sure

It also doesn't say that they have beyond Infinite speed either. Plus, speed is equalized, and universes in the Froggy Universe are their own time-space continuums. So unless we want to try to debunk the entire Froggy Universe cosmology, Occam's Razor dictates that it is interdimensional Portal Creation that did it.

• Occam's razor: Explanations which require fewer unjustified assumptions are more likely to be correct; avoid unnecessary or improbable assumptions.

The World blitz/intangibility + Save and Load spam gg's every team with ease

I already proved why these wouldn't work (Dio would get whooped by any decent ability spam or Javen making a star to exploit Dio's key weakness, or Dark Delta simply whisking him away, or Max's Help Button ridding of him faster than Dio can even say "The World", and Clover's spam can easily be overidden by anyone with solid Willpower, Acausality, the ability to send someone to a different reality (Clover's power isn't shown to work on an interdimensional scale) or 100% success such as Asuna, Goku Black, and again, Dark Delta and Max. Heck. Dio and Clover combined only eliminate Goku Black from this list of counters. Simply repeating that they win with those abilities doesn't help seeing as I've given reasons why that would fail. And again, Dio and Clover are byfar the weakest ones here physically, being hundreds of thousands of times weaker than a single Level 3 Spagmatron, or heck, even a single Level 1 Android Soldier. As per Leo's rules, these Haxes are basically justified due to this absurd gap as well as the "Nature of Haxes in this Tournament." Once again, proving my point.

You still have to be beatable to most of the combatants in the tourney. You and chariot were bringing up stuff Leo never would have allowed if they'd been said before the tourney or even in match 1. Also The World blitz/intangibility + Save and Load spam gg's every team with ease. You are allowed to be op, duh, that's the point of this tourney, and if Dio and Clover had been paired differently maybe they are still allowed. But together is literally an impossible to stop combo, everyone agreed with this except you

I already said what I said before, and Frogate don't fall under the "Need to be beatable to most in the tourney" umbrella either. Let's move on.

Save and loading destroys the help button plus The World blitzes and he can't even use it. The World blitz/intangibility + Save and Load spam gg again

Everytime Clover does this, the Help Button is guaranteed to go off as established when they fought Frogate, and kill Clover the same way again due to its nature. It would be a Technical Win for Max under the ruleset of the Tourney.

But they did win, they were voted to win, the match is added as a win on Asuna and javen's profile

Technical Win because they didn't take out Cobalt. They took out Destiny which lead to their TW. It's only if they take out both which counts as a genuine W.

Plus Dark Delta is literally Leo's own guy so I'm not sure why you assume Leo would break their own tourney's rules

He's the owner of the Tourney. He can do whatever the heck he wants, even eliminate characters that he personally doesn't like (Which given there was Anti-Undertale bias brewing just before The SOUL got DQ'd, it's safe to assume it might've brushed off of Leo.

if you feel the way you do even now, but the rest of us still intend to finish out the tourney and we don't intend to leave with ill will towards the tourney or anyone involved.

Simply put, I have no ill will or intent towards anyone. I'm simply not content with the winner of the tournament being a duo that shouldn't even be in the Finals to begin with due to shenanigans, so when Frogate win the Tourney, I'm not going to count it due to that.

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

He's the owner of the Tourney. He can do whatever the heck he wants, even eliminate characters that he personally doesn't like (Which given there was Anti-Undertale bias brewing just before The SOUL got DQ'd, it's safe to assume it might've brushed off of Leo.

"He" -_-

 

[SSB64]

"He" -_-

Wait. Are you not He/Him? If you aren't, I'm sorry about messing it up. That's partly why I try to use They/Them before knowing someone's gender.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Wait. Are you not He/Him? If you aren't, I'm sorry about messing it up. That's partly why I try to use They/Them before knowing someone's gender.

Yeah it says they/them under their forum pfp

 

[SSB64]

Yeah it says they/them under their forum pfp

Yeah. That's completely my bad. :`D

 

[Froggytron]

Although being highly chaotic and just little diary art, I still thought it could add some graphical representation here As for what happens in the comic documentary (If I am catching the battle right):
1) In the first time fragment of battle, G.Hecate scans opponents while Frogman summons his Spagms + activates fear auras, while Asujaven mostly adapt to conceptual fear and make clones of themselves (inspired by waves of Spagms likely)

2) Here all the Javen + Asuna clones attack, but attacks get reflected or absorbed (Asuna uses Playback to avoid Gunnixes), nevertheless Frogman spamming rewind is sufficient for defenses to not drop completely while he scans Hecate's G.Laser attributes. G.Hecate meanwhile shoots Golden Lasers to reduce the number of opponent clones and prepares strategies + tells info to Frogman telepathically. The opponent clones are, however good at dodging, most of the Golden Lasers cannot hit them.

3) A while after the battle started, Frogman has his 81x rewinds for 2 seconds nearly depleted (and has to rewind some Spagms nuked by Asuna's whitespace), yet he already can spam the new Golden Laser Storm (the best defense is a deadly offense) while Hecate now launches golden lasers creating her clones from the golden projectiles themselves (as Vene mentioned) + her purple scanner copies some of Spagm's tech and main Hecate brainstorms imbutting it with her Golden mech. It's yet unknown how AsuJaven are replying to this, as to why they are drawn with question marks there with pencil (set to be redrawn once they reveal their reply)

 

[Rayfire]

Although being highly chaotic and just little diary art, I still thought it could add some graphical representation here As for what happens in the comic documentary (If I am catching the battle right):
1) In the first time fragment of battle, G.Hecate scans opponents while Frogman summons his Spagms + activates fear auras, while Asujaven mostly adapt to conceptual fear and make clones of themselves (inspired by waves of Spagms likely)

2) Here all the Javen + Asuna clones attack, but attacks get reflected or absorbed (Asuna uses Playback to avoid Gunnixes), nevertheless Frogman spamming rewind is sufficient for defenses to not drop completely while he scans Hecate's G.Laser attributes. G.Hecate meanwhile shoots Golden Lasers to reduce the number of opponent clones and prepares strategies + tells info to Frogman telepathically. The opponent clones are, however good at dodging, most of the Golden Lasers cannot hit them.

3) A while after the battle started, Frogman has his 81x rewinds for 2 seconds nearly depleted (and has to rewind some Spagms nuked by Asuna's whitespace), yet he already can spam the new Golden Laser Storm (the best defense is a deadly offense) while Hecate now launches golden lasers creating her clones from the golden projectiles themselves (as Vene mentioned) + her purple scanner copies some of Spagm's tech and main Hecate brainstorms imbutting it with her Golden mech. It's yet unknown how AsuJaven are replying to this, as to why they are drawn with question marks there with pencil (set to be redrawn once they reveal their reply)

Very cool Do keep in mind i have counterarguments to everything else still, plus some new ideas, but they'll probably be a while so stay tuned

 

[SSB64]

Very cool Do keep in mind i have counterarguments to everything else still, plus some new ideas, but they'll probably be a while so stay tuned

Cheers from the stands

 

[SSB64]

Although being highly chaotic and just little diary art, I still thought it could add some graphical representation here As for what happens in the comic documentary (If I am catching the battle right):
1) In the first time fragment of battle, G.Hecate scans opponents while Frogman summons his Spagms + activates fear auras, while Asujaven mostly adapt to conceptual fear and make clones of themselves (inspired by waves of Spagms likely)

2) Here all the Javen + Asuna clones attack, but attacks get reflected or absorbed (Asuna uses Playback to avoid Gunnixes), nevertheless Frogman spamming rewind is sufficient for defenses to not drop completely while he scans Hecate's G.Laser attributes. G.Hecate meanwhile shoots Golden Lasers to reduce the number of opponent clones and prepares strategies + tells info to Frogman telepathically. The opponent clones are, however good at dodging, most of the Golden Lasers cannot hit them.

3) A while after the battle started, Frogman has his 81x rewinds for 2 seconds nearly depleted (and has to rewind some Spagms nuked by Asuna's whitespace), yet he already can spam the new Golden Laser Storm (the best defense is a deadly offense) while Hecate now launches golden lasers creating her clones from the golden projectiles themselves (as Vene mentioned) + her purple scanner copies some of Spagm's tech and main Hecate brainstorms imbutting it with her Golden mech. It's yet unknown how AsuJaven are replying to this, as to why they are drawn with question marks there with pencil (set to be redrawn once they reveal their reply)

BTW, I know I mentioned this before, but I wish to ask again to get your permission. There's an 8-B to 8-A Tourney that needs slots filled out. Mind if I use a character or two of yours in it since you do have them?