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Final Fantasy XIII tier 1, explanations and other things
- Thread starter Zer00Negativo
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I respect the effort you put into organizing this. However...the upgrade proposed here is no different than the one for Magi long ago...
You are not 1-A for simply being in a 1-A realm.
A world outside Space and Time, even if outside "all space and time" is not 1-A. Caius blatantly says "In Valhalla, time does not flow as it should", not "the concept of time in any matter does not exist whatsoever". Even if it did, we have no evidence it exceeds that of even multiple universes, likely just one physical universe. Infinite possibilities does not even remotely suggest infinite timelines. Otherwise Bhunivelze would've been rated 2-A from the jump.
There are not even higher dimensions to even suggest otherwise. In order for 1-A to be applied to anything, one needs higher dimensions or absolutely definitive proof such a realm is beyond all concepts of physics. The latter is a very rare, almost nonexistent case in any notable work of fiction I can name (which is a lot). Even Masadaverse, which has Tier 7s jumping to 1-A, has mentioned higher dimensions on top of literally using terms like hyperdimensional (written to mean something different than higher dimensional, like in Tenchi Muyo) so there is enough evidence for 1-A in that verse.
In Final Fantasy XIII however...
"There is no space or time, but there is form".
Dimensionless = no physics a.k.a formless. 1-A cannot have any true form or physicality. If it did, it belongs to the realm of physics. There is not a single true 1-A on this wiki that is bound to the concept of form or physics. All of them are formless abstractions and being a formless abstract, isn't even 1-A, there's Low 2-Cs that fit that bill nicely.
Chaos is nothing more than a formless abstract substance beyond the space, time, and matter of a universe. Remember when I said 1-A is hetter assigned to verses with higher dimensions in the cosmology? Well FFXIII doesn't even have countless parallel universes.
It's just not enough information, and I'm well versed in FFXIII, so was The Everlasting. Yet neither of us ever proposed a 1-A rating in all the years we've been here. This is why.
You are not 1-A for simply being in a 1-A realm.
A world outside Space and Time, even if outside "all space and time" is not 1-A. Caius blatantly says "In Valhalla, time does not flow as it should", not "the concept of time in any matter does not exist whatsoever". Even if it did, we have no evidence it exceeds that of even multiple universes, likely just one physical universe. Infinite possibilities does not even remotely suggest infinite timelines. Otherwise Bhunivelze would've been rated 2-A from the jump.
There are not even higher dimensions to even suggest otherwise. In order for 1-A to be applied to anything, one needs higher dimensions or absolutely definitive proof such a realm is beyond all concepts of physics. The latter is a very rare, almost nonexistent case in any notable work of fiction I can name (which is a lot). Even Masadaverse, which has Tier 7s jumping to 1-A, has mentioned higher dimensions on top of literally using terms like hyperdimensional (written to mean something different than higher dimensional, like in Tenchi Muyo) so there is enough evidence for 1-A in that verse.
In Final Fantasy XIII however...
"There is no space or time, but there is form".
Dimensionless = no physics a.k.a formless. 1-A cannot have any true form or physicality. If it did, it belongs to the realm of physics. There is not a single true 1-A on this wiki that is bound to the concept of form or physics. All of them are formless abstractions and being a formless abstract, isn't even 1-A, there's Low 2-Cs that fit that bill nicely.
Chaos is nothing more than a formless abstract substance beyond the space, time, and matter of a universe. Remember when I said 1-A is hetter assigned to verses with higher dimensions in the cosmology? Well FFXIII doesn't even have countless parallel universes.
It's just not enough information, and I'm well versed in FFXIII, so was The Everlasting. Yet neither of us ever proposed a 1-A rating in all the years we've been here. This is why.
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watch up to 0:57 and then skip to 11:30
There you have a speech about the unseen Chaos and how it cant be fully controlled.
There you have a speech about the unseen Chaos and how it cant be fully controlled.
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That doesn't mean it's 1-A.
Let me map out something real quick.
>4-dimensional spacetime encompassing all time and matter
>Adding one dimension allows the previous structure to be duplicated an infinite number of times. (5-D)
>Lack of all concepts of 4D/5-D spacetime, matter, concepts, form, etc., is just a 6-D hyperdimensional blah blah.
Space, time, and even form are not the only concepts in realm of physics. So to be 1-A (beyond all concepts of physics) requires so much more.
Let me map out something real quick.
>4-dimensional spacetime encompassing all time and matter
>Adding one dimension allows the previous structure to be duplicated an infinite number of times. (5-D)
>Lack of all concepts of 4D/5-D spacetime, matter, concepts, form, etc., is just a 6-D hyperdimensional blah blah.
Space, time, and even form are not the only concepts in realm of physics. So to be 1-A (beyond all concepts of physics) requires so much more.
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Actually, it wouldn't even be 6D unless it was a dimensional plane above the 5D one. Its like how the "nothingness before creation" in most verses doesn't put it above the dimensional hierarchy if that verse.
The lack of something is just that. It's empty. Not above or below anything. The universe before the big bang wasn't 1-A, then the big bang happened as an expansion of spacetime and now we have our 4D universe. The universe was nothing. Not even 4D. Not 1-A, just nothing. So for the purpose of this wiki, we can't just rank lacking concepts of space and time as 1-A. There is a massive difference between lacking and transcending. First of all, the former could be 11-C. A zero-dimensional singularity lacks all concepts of space and time...and that's 11-C.
I hope I explained it properly, it's pretty late here.
The lack of something is just that. It's empty. Not above or below anything. The universe before the big bang wasn't 1-A, then the big bang happened as an expansion of spacetime and now we have our 4D universe. The universe was nothing. Not even 4D. Not 1-A, just nothing. So for the purpose of this wiki, we can't just rank lacking concepts of space and time as 1-A. There is a massive difference between lacking and transcending. First of all, the former could be 11-C. A zero-dimensional singularity lacks all concepts of space and time...and that's 11-C.
I hope I explained it properly, it's pretty late here.
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- Thread starter
- #55
it is not necessary to have ifinitas dimensions when the place is beyond the concepts themselves of space and time, and not only of one concept but ALL.
infinite possibilities refer to timelines because in the context Caius wanted to destroy all possibilities in order to have only one possibility in which Yeul lives, and several times the parallel worlds are referred to as possibilities, in addition to the fact that in Type 0 the infinite worlds.
There are reasons to consider extradimensional spaces as a higher dimension because they are said to be places that not even the "powerful" fal'Cies are able to access.
they are not 1-A merely by existing in these places, they are 1-A by being able to affect such places as controlling or destroying.
The Chaos is 1-A, a small part of it or infinite will still be 1-A, which defines if the person itself is 1-A is if he knows how to control his chaos inteirior, in terms of playing that chaos would be the crystarium because according to the myths the chaos should grant magic abilities to the humans and in the game the magical abilities are in their crystarium, besides the fact the characters were able to plunge into the chaos ocean in its purest form and not be affected.
Caius was able to control not only the inner chaos but the chaos of the invisible world because he possesses the chaos heart that would be the very essence of the goddess, but his heart is destroyed by Noel in FFXIII-2 so he does not control the whole Chaos in LRFFXIIII.
The invisible world / chaos exists prior to void itself and in FFIIII it is said that void exists before all existence.
what you said about laws of physics does not make sense because the laws of physics are dissolved only with the presence of the chaos of the VISIBLE world and I believe that I have already posted it.
infinite possibilities refer to timelines because in the context Caius wanted to destroy all possibilities in order to have only one possibility in which Yeul lives, and several times the parallel worlds are referred to as possibilities, in addition to the fact that in Type 0 the infinite worlds.
There are reasons to consider extradimensional spaces as a higher dimension because they are said to be places that not even the "powerful" fal'Cies are able to access.
they are not 1-A merely by existing in these places, they are 1-A by being able to affect such places as controlling or destroying.
The Chaos is 1-A, a small part of it or infinite will still be 1-A, which defines if the person itself is 1-A is if he knows how to control his chaos inteirior, in terms of playing that chaos would be the crystarium because according to the myths the chaos should grant magic abilities to the humans and in the game the magical abilities are in their crystarium, besides the fact the characters were able to plunge into the chaos ocean in its purest form and not be affected.
Caius was able to control not only the inner chaos but the chaos of the invisible world because he possesses the chaos heart that would be the very essence of the goddess, but his heart is destroyed by Noel in FFXIII-2 so he does not control the whole Chaos in LRFFXIIII.
The invisible world / chaos exists prior to void itself and in FFIIII it is said that void exists before all existence.
what you said about laws of physics does not make sense because the laws of physics are dissolved only with the presence of the chaos of the VISIBLE world and I believe that I have already posted it.
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Any physicist will tell you the laws of physics don't even encompass all of physics. There's a reason M-theory is...well...a theory.
Yes you don't need infinite dimensions. But FFXIII doesn't even have six. The less dimensions, the harder it is to prove something is beyond-dimensional, as we describe it.
Yes you don't need infinite dimensions. But FFXIII doesn't even have six. The less dimensions, the harder it is to prove something is beyond-dimensional, as we describe it.
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- Thread starter
- #57
the void exists before everything and after it because everything that ends goes to void, the void is the beginning of all things and the end of all things, everything is destined to return to void when it reaches its end, including the extradimensional spaces are said to exist within the voidSera Loveheart said:
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the fal'Cie by what I said of to consider them 5D, the extradimensions in which they neither have access could then be 6D and the void itself even moreSera Loveheart said:
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Oblivion and paralaya have this description and are 1-A.
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Marvel is a Type 3 Multiverse at bare minimum and is a Composite Hierarchy. Not the best comparison, I'm afraid.
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I am not comparing the multiverse to the nature of the character that is made of nothing, there is nothing greater than the other, since nothing is composed of literally nothing, without time, space, matter, nothing, if nothing is composed of something the least it is then this nothingness is really nothing.
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the multiverse of FF is infinite, Type 0 and XIII would be one of these universes, however only the world of Type 0 is already described to contain infinite worlds, and XIII also, besides the multiverse of the franchise itself has the void that even covers even extradimensional spaces in which neither the fal'Cie are able to access, and in Type 0 it is said that to reach the invisible world the person must literally obtain the transcendence
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Dissidia and Gilgamesh confirm, Gilgamesh himself of FFXIII-2 is quoted in Ultimania omega having passed by different places such as the world of FFVI, IX etc, besides the coliseum of FFXIII-2 being said that connects different realities so omega and Gilgamesh appear over there
and cloud of darkness has a higher level, the point is that void entities do not manifest in the corporeal realm directly according to FFXIV, instead they use their manifestations, and cloud of darkness is said to be the supreme entity of void with a force immeasurable, by logic then superior to Exdeath.
and Cloud does not transcend just the material but even the abstract http://imgur.com/a/MRYa8
and cloud of darkness has a higher level, the point is that void entities do not manifest in the corporeal realm directly according to FFXIV, instead they use their manifestations, and cloud of darkness is said to be the supreme entity of void with a force immeasurable, by logic then superior to Exdeath.
and Cloud does not transcend just the material but even the abstract http://imgur.com/a/MRYa8
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Ok. Let me process one thing at a time. I am aware of Gilgamesh who appears occasionally in other FF games. I also am not vehemently opposed to the idea of multiversal FF, since it's something I've considered in the past. (1-A remains a no-no for me, though).
This might end up becoming more of a FF as a whole deal than just XIII, so I want to hold off until Reppuzan steps in.
This might end up becoming more of a FF as a whole deal than just XIII, so I want to hold off until Reppuzan steps in.
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- #69
the question of FFXIII / type being a multiverse itself is because at the end of the thirteenth chaos escaped into the visible world and destroyed its time (past and future, leaving only an eternal present as Caius wanted), all parallel time lines were also (otherwise it would be enough for the characters to live there rather than waiting for Bhunivelze to create a new universe) and those universes that were destroyed were not restored they are still destroyed, if these universes actually indicated the universes of the franchise then it would mean that the entire FF franchise was destroyed which is not the case.
already in type 0, if the infinite universes represented the universes of the franchise then it would indicate that all the franchise is inside the spiral and not only orience, and airs it resigns the spiral million times.
already in type 0, if the infinite universes represented the universes of the franchise then it would indicate that all the franchise is inside the spiral and not only orience, and airs it resigns the spiral million times.
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somehow i feel like it's look the same way as Nasuverse Void Shiki upgrade threads
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Yeah, 1-A seems iffy, at best, High 2-A sounds like the best that can be assumed, but even I'm unsure about that. Let's wait for someone like Reppuzan or Matt to respond. Too bad Everlasting isn't here to respond, his input would have been really helpful
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high 2-A would merely transcend space-time, these locations are beyond all space-time concepts so it is in accordance with the requirements of wikia, and this is quoted in both ultimania omega and light novel final fantasy XIII- 2 fragments after (in light novel is quoted general concepts of space-time)
high 2-A would not be consistent because fal'Cie already has requirements for this level and they can not even access the extradimensions / history Crux / Void
I honestly think you guys just can not see FF with a level higher than the default
" Outerverse level: Characters that are beyond all dimensional scale. There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained. "
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System
high 2-A would not be consistent because fal'Cie already has requirements for this level and they can not even access the extradimensions / history Crux / Void
I honestly think you guys just can not see FF with a level higher than the default
" Outerverse level: Characters that are beyond all dimensional scale. There are two options in order to qualify for this tier: There should either be a qualitative superiority over infinite dimensions; or the superiority over the concept of dimensions (in general) should be clearly explained. "
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System
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The everlasting? I think I've discussed it with him a few times but most of the time my knowledge was bigger, at least in some subjects
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Except not every author or verse knows what dimension actually means. Sometimes, people can use an "Infinite number of Dimensions" as a reference to a 2-A feat rather than a High 1-B feat. Unless there's and endless sequence of worlds containing an infinite number of worlds and those smaller worlds also containing an infinite number of worlds and so on, we can't really assume to much.
We know what 1-A means, but we do have heavily strict standards for it. There was a similar statement people used to get Mister Mxyzptlk upgraded to 1-A, but that was more so a confusion said author misinterpreted. Most that actually know what Dimensions mean clearly define Mr Mxy as being High 2-A. The Bravely Default god tiers are also High 2-A based on a quote related to being above, "Infinite number of dimensions." It's very common in fiction to not know what the difference between Dimensions or Parallel Universes are.
We know what 1-A means, but we do have heavily strict standards for it. There was a similar statement people used to get Mister Mxyzptlk upgraded to 1-A, but that was more so a confusion said author misinterpreted. Most that actually know what Dimensions mean clearly define Mr Mxy as being High 2-A. The Bravely Default god tiers are also High 2-A based on a quote related to being above, "Infinite number of dimensions." It's very common in fiction to not know what the difference between Dimensions or Parallel Universes are.
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Humility at its finest.Zer00Negativo said:
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but the question is not to be beyond infinite dimensions but of the concept itself, everything that is related to dimension is within the concept, be parallel, superior or negative that will be within the concept.
DC uses several scripts so it ends up contradicting itself, but the director of the scenario of both FFXIII and type 0 is the same, and in games they do not use the word dimension to refer to universes, not even in japanese, but "worlds" beings of the invisible world as Lightning and the eidolons use shadows to manifest in the human world, and even a shadow of the Odin in FFXIII-2 is said to transcend time while it exists over time, and another example of that is that in Type 0 the person must literally get the transcendence.
As I already said the fal'Cie has 5D capability and the doctor can casually reset the Type 0 multiverse (since it is a separate multiverse of the XIII) and even then the fal'Cie can not access the void that contains spaces extradimensional.
the requirements to be 1-A beyond transcending the concepts of space-time is to be formless and abstract, however all the time it is said that the invisible world and the chaos is formless, already in the matter be abstract the Cloud of darkness (original) is said to transcend the abstract and it is an entity of void and void is just a simple shadow of valhalla.
DC uses several scripts so it ends up contradicting itself, but the director of the scenario of both FFXIII and type 0 is the same, and in games they do not use the word dimension to refer to universes, not even in japanese, but "worlds" beings of the invisible world as Lightning and the eidolons use shadows to manifest in the human world, and even a shadow of the Odin in FFXIII-2 is said to transcend time while it exists over time, and another example of that is that in Type 0 the person must literally get the transcendence.
As I already said the fal'Cie has 5D capability and the doctor can casually reset the Type 0 multiverse (since it is a separate multiverse of the XIII) and even then the fal'Cie can not access the void that contains spaces extradimensional.
the requirements to be 1-A beyond transcending the concepts of space-time is to be formless and abstract, however all the time it is said that the invisible world and the chaos is formless, already in the matter be abstract the Cloud of darkness (original) is said to transcend the abstract and it is an entity of void and void is just a simple shadow of valhalla.
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Humility at its finest.
I'm not being arrogant but it's a fact that he had no knowledge about some databook like 25 universary, not even that the crystals of some games have the same affinity and root, according to some ultimania omega, or about FF mobius,after all nobody is omniscient I also am not saying that I know everything about the franchise yet another great franchise
I'm not being arrogant but it's a fact that he had no knowledge about some databook like 25 universary, not even that the crystals of some games have the same affinity and root, according to some ultimania omega, or about FF mobius,after all nobody is omniscient I also am not saying that I know everything about the franchise yet another great franchise
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I agree with High 2-A.
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