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- #81
fal'Cie already has feats to consider them high 2-A, although not even they can access the places inside the void like crux history and extradimensions, it is said that only those with affinity with chaos can access
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Final Fantasy XIII tier 1, explanations and other things
- Thread starter Zer00Negativo
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- #82
it does not make sense to fal'Cie to be high 2-A and can not access high places 2-A which in turn gets inside something infinitely higher than this high 2-A and continue being high 2-A which in turn is only one shadow of something also high 2-A which in turn is just a simple city from a place also high 2-A.
this more seems to me that you can not admit that it is 1-A because its definition beats with the definition of 1-A of wikia.
this more seems to me that you can not admit that it is 1-A because its definition beats with the definition of 1-A of wikia.
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- #83
summarizing everything I've said so far:
FF series has infinite universes, Fabula universe would be one of them (XIII and Type 0 separately) and all those universes were born from void.
Only the world of Type 0 already contains infinite universes in which it has already reset literally 600 million times.
FFXIII which is a separate universe of type 0 has infinite timelines extradimensional time and spaces.
These extradimensional spaces exist within the void in which neither the fal'Cie that has the ability to reset a multiverse and its existence is beyond multidimensional life forms, space, and time are able to access those locations.
And even the void that gave rise to everything I said and is said to possess infinite size is just a mere shadow of valhalla.
Void beings are said to transcend both the material and the abstract worlds.
And valhalla inhabits the invisible world that transcends ALL concepts of space-time (not only 4 or 5 but all) and this is quoted more than once because in the light novel Lightning cites that the visible world is where the general concepts of space and time (said exactly "general") and invisible World beyond oficial general concepts
it is not necessary to have infinite dimensions in the verse to be 1-A as you are suggesting, it is enough only to transcend the concepts themselves.
And the director knows well about dimensionality because in FFXIIIs he works with tesseracts, life form 4D and multidimensional space
FF series has infinite universes, Fabula universe would be one of them (XIII and Type 0 separately) and all those universes were born from void.
Only the world of Type 0 already contains infinite universes in which it has already reset literally 600 million times.
FFXIII which is a separate universe of type 0 has infinite timelines extradimensional time and spaces.
These extradimensional spaces exist within the void in which neither the fal'Cie that has the ability to reset a multiverse and its existence is beyond multidimensional life forms, space, and time are able to access those locations.
And even the void that gave rise to everything I said and is said to possess infinite size is just a mere shadow of valhalla.
Void beings are said to transcend both the material and the abstract worlds.
And valhalla inhabits the invisible world that transcends ALL concepts of space-time (not only 4 or 5 but all) and this is quoted more than once because in the light novel Lightning cites that the visible world is where the general concepts of space and time (said exactly "general") and invisible World beyond oficial general concepts
it is not necessary to have infinite dimensions in the verse to be 1-A as you are suggesting, it is enough only to transcend the concepts themselves.
And the director knows well about dimensionality because in FFXIIIs he works with tesseracts, life form 4D and multidimensional space
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- #85
Again let's check the settings with 1-A
"1-A: Outerverse level Characters that have no dimensional limitations.
Basically, being an object which is outside and beyond all dimensions of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. "
Ok lets go for parts
"1-A: Outerverse level Characters that have no dimensional limitations.
Basically, being an object which is outside and beyond all dimensions of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. "
Ok lets go for parts
- "outside and beyond all dimensions of time and space": yeah this is mentioned in the games, transceded all concepts of time and space of infinite universes http://imgur.com/a/c6Ftmbp
- "completely formless": yeah also has mention of it both in the games and in the guide on the chaos to be formless http://imgur.com/a/c6Ftmbp
- "abstract, metaphysical": also has it in the games, void entity transcend the corporeal realm and the abstract http://imgur.com/lxCkTvc
- "transcedental": again also has it in the games, to pass through the gate of Etro a is necessary to obtain the transcedence http://imgur.com/a/mCqsnXD
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You dont prove to be beyond dimensionality by existing outside time and space.
Oblivion is a Void that predates the creation of the Marvel multiverse (which is infinite dimensional), this is proof that Oblivion is above infinite dimensions (he is different from the dimensional space).
The Chaos/Unseen Realm doesnt trascend all dimensions.
Oblivion is a Void that predates the creation of the Marvel multiverse (which is infinite dimensional), this is proof that Oblivion is above infinite dimensions (he is different from the dimensional space).
The Chaos/Unseen Realm doesnt trascend all dimensions.
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- #87
dimensions would be the dimensions of time and space and space itself (since dimensions are composed of spatial and temporal dimensions).
And I will have to repeat again what I have said several times, it is not merely to exist beyond time and space but of all concepts of time and space itself, and for this reason it is not necessary that the verse has infinite dimensions since which transcends these concepts according to wikia's own tiering system.
again it is NOT necessary to have infinite dimensions, masadaverse is like 1-A even though it does not have infinite dimensions, since Warhammer has 1-A to be beyond the concepts of time and space, xenosaga characters were like 1-A (for that reason also currently there are no more profiles here in wika) luccifer among others (DC) are like 1-A for similar reasons.
I understood about the Oblivion but nothing is still nothing, it is prior to the very existence and concepts, concepts are abstract and cloud of darkness transcends the abstract.
And I will have to repeat again what I have said several times, it is not merely to exist beyond time and space but of all concepts of time and space itself, and for this reason it is not necessary that the verse has infinite dimensions since which transcends these concepts according to wikia's own tiering system.
again it is NOT necessary to have infinite dimensions, masadaverse is like 1-A even though it does not have infinite dimensions, since Warhammer has 1-A to be beyond the concepts of time and space, xenosaga characters were like 1-A (for that reason also currently there are no more profiles here in wika) luccifer among others (DC) are like 1-A for similar reasons.
I understood about the Oblivion but nothing is still nothing, it is prior to the very existence and concepts, concepts are abstract and cloud of darkness transcends the abstract.
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Only going to talk about the 1-A stuff, for now.
"since Warhammer has 1-A to be beyond the concepts of time and space"
I'll use this to segway into an example. In this example, we'll use Tzeentch and some random Lord of Change who we'll call "Derek, Exarch of Explanations".
The true form of Derek, being a daemon, exists without any dimensional limitations of physical space. He is unaffected by time and comes from a world where the concepts of time and distance do not exist, and space holds no actual meaning. Derek's true self is inherently "dimensionless", but he is not "beyond dimensions". These parts of his nature are due to the fact that he is a being composed of thought, metaphor, and unreality; as opposed to anything remotely close to what inhabits physical space. This on its own does not give him complete transcendence to all aspects of any sort of reality with any number of dimensions, meaning Derek would need more to qualify for 1-A.
Tzeentch, on the other hand, is an entirely different story. Like Derek, his form is one of thought and metaphor that is unrestricted by time and space. However, Tzeentch and his fellow Chaos Gods have the distinct advantage of being able to control the Warp on a fundamental level. The same Warp that has shown to be able to fully simulate infinite-dimensional space and has been expressed to be beyond higher-dimensional physics. Not just a dimensionless void, but one which demonstrates explicit transcendence of all forms of physical reality.
If the Warp was only inhabited by creatures like Derek and did not show off the qualities mentioned above, it wouldn't be a void that transcends dimensions, space, and time. Just one without dimensions, which means it does not have the same restrictions as normal space, but also is not inherently superior to it in all its forms.
Sources: Everything relevant is right here.
"since Warhammer has 1-A to be beyond the concepts of time and space"
I'll use this to segway into an example. In this example, we'll use Tzeentch and some random Lord of Change who we'll call "Derek, Exarch of Explanations".
The true form of Derek, being a daemon, exists without any dimensional limitations of physical space. He is unaffected by time and comes from a world where the concepts of time and distance do not exist, and space holds no actual meaning. Derek's true self is inherently "dimensionless", but he is not "beyond dimensions". These parts of his nature are due to the fact that he is a being composed of thought, metaphor, and unreality; as opposed to anything remotely close to what inhabits physical space. This on its own does not give him complete transcendence to all aspects of any sort of reality with any number of dimensions, meaning Derek would need more to qualify for 1-A.
Tzeentch, on the other hand, is an entirely different story. Like Derek, his form is one of thought and metaphor that is unrestricted by time and space. However, Tzeentch and his fellow Chaos Gods have the distinct advantage of being able to control the Warp on a fundamental level. The same Warp that has shown to be able to fully simulate infinite-dimensional space and has been expressed to be beyond higher-dimensional physics. Not just a dimensionless void, but one which demonstrates explicit transcendence of all forms of physical reality.
If the Warp was only inhabited by creatures like Derek and did not show off the qualities mentioned above, it wouldn't be a void that transcends dimensions, space, and time. Just one without dimensions, which means it does not have the same restrictions as normal space, but also is not inherently superior to it in all its forms.
Sources: Everything relevant is right here.
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- #89
Although in this blog does not explicitly say be beyond the concepts of space and time itself, still less beyond all concepts of space and time I understood that this void has mentions that places it as 1-A unlike FF void (despite of transcending the abstract not only the physical), then only the invisible world would be 1-A, since the void with everything that was shown would be at least low 1-C?
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Double check. I included stuff like Chaos making the very concept of time cease to exist.
"In the centre, time not only does not flow, but also does not exist as a concept, save for when such trivialities might please the Dark Gods themselves." ― Index Chaotica
Though like I said above, this isn't as relevant without proper context.
The full extent of the realm is 1-A because it being beyond the laws of space & time is explicitly shown to mean that a dimensional structure of any size can exist within it, and that it is fully transcendent of these things. These are the kinds of things to look for to differentiate between something just being formless and something actually completely and utterly transcending any dimensional level of space-time.
"In the centre, time not only does not flow, but also does not exist as a concept, save for when such trivialities might please the Dark Gods themselves." ― Index Chaotica
Though like I said above, this isn't as relevant without proper context.
The full extent of the realm is 1-A because it being beyond the laws of space & time is explicitly shown to mean that a dimensional structure of any size can exist within it, and that it is fully transcendent of these things. These are the kinds of things to look for to differentiate between something just being formless and something actually completely and utterly transcending any dimensional level of space-time.
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So is this an upgrade yes or no..?
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I disagree with 1-A, and I also don't see much of a reason for High 2-A either.
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- #93
Wow this is so much like the FF chaos that I even got a little confused about which chaos you were talking about.
It is basically this also the chaos / invisible world in FFXIII, time not only does not flow in valhalla as it has no concept
the very ocean of time exists within the void as a tiny object compared to its entirety.
time itself is measured by the goddess who in turn is devoid of such concepts, and being deprived of it she is able to simultaneously see and hear everything in space-time.
Even the fal'Cie high dimensional beings that exist beyond space-time and are able to reset an entire infinite multiverse are not able to access the crux Historia that is said to be a surreal dimensional plane, and the Crux story is just a parecela infinitely smaller than the void that also encompasses extradimensional space-time.
and the void is only a shadow of valhalla, a city that inhabits the invisible world, and the invisible world is not limited to any dimensional concept / level of space-time
õ©ìÕŻުûõ©ûþòî µÖéÚûôÒÇüþ®║ÚûôÒÇüÕ¢óþèÂÒü«µªéÕ┐ÁÒüîÒüÖÒü╣ÒüªÒü¬ÒüäÒÇéÕ«îÕà¿Òü¬µÀÀµ▓î
" Invisible World
There is not any concept of time, space, and form. Perfect chaos. "
It is basically this also the chaos / invisible world in FFXIII, time not only does not flow in valhalla as it has no concept
the very ocean of time exists within the void as a tiny object compared to its entirety.
time itself is measured by the goddess who in turn is devoid of such concepts, and being deprived of it she is able to simultaneously see and hear everything in space-time.
Even the fal'Cie high dimensional beings that exist beyond space-time and are able to reset an entire infinite multiverse are not able to access the crux Historia that is said to be a surreal dimensional plane, and the Crux story is just a parecela infinitely smaller than the void that also encompasses extradimensional space-time.
and the void is only a shadow of valhalla, a city that inhabits the invisible world, and the invisible world is not limited to any dimensional concept / level of space-time
õ©ìÕŻުûõ©ûþòî µÖéÚûôÒÇüþ®║ÚûôÒÇüÕ¢óþèÂÒü«µªéÕ┐ÁÒüîÒüÖÒü╣ÒüªÒü¬ÒüäÒÇéÕ«îÕà¿Òü¬µÀÀµ▓î
" Invisible World
There is not any concept of time, space, and form. Perfect chaos. "
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Also you can't cross-scale Type-0 to XIII as far as I know. They are mostly independent outside of sharing the same Creation Myth.
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- #95
for me it seems to be enough reason that I quoted.
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- #96
in some interviews confirm that the gods are the same in all games.
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I agree with Matt; and just a note, I never quite said anything about agreeing with High 2-A. Was just pointing out that 1-A. Sometimes the term, "Upper-dimensional" can be hyperbolic in general.
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- #98
How can you agree with someone who did not even give his reason?
and it is not simply "upper-dimensional" ha many and many deeds and quotation that put it on that level that I have already mentioned and I have shown many times.
and by then most had agreed, we were only discussing whether the void would also be 1-A.
and it is not simply "upper-dimensional" ha many and many deeds and quotation that put it on that level that I have already mentioned and I have shown many times.
and by then most had agreed, we were only discussing whether the void would also be 1-A.
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That would mean Lightning would have to move up since she's stronger than them. She at best has shown universal feats. so idk
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- #100
his universal festa are based on defeating Bhunivelze, which is wrong because Bhunivelze is not only universal level he is the supreme god of the game superior to mwynn who created the fabula universe, superior to the gods like Etro who rules the chaos and logically superior to the fal 'Cie who has talents 2-A and high 2-A
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Well, he has shown proof that there are infinite worlds. And if Bhunivelze created it, it is a 2-A upgrade for the god at the very least.
About 5D Fal'Cie:
1) Proof that they use avatars to interact with the lower dimensional world.
2) Proof that they come from a higher dimension.
3) Proof that they cannot be comprehended by 4D entities (and no, humans dont count here, they are still 3D even if they can create space time).
Note: multidimensional fodder are meaningless without context.
About 5D Fal'Cie:
1) Proof that they use avatars to interact with the lower dimensional world.
2) Proof that they come from a higher dimension.
3) Proof that they cannot be comprehended by 4D entities (and no, humans dont count here, they are still 3D even if they can create space time).
Note: multidimensional fodder are meaningless without context.
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Im not very familiar with the series. but i do admit this was some great research you put in regardless of whether it is right or wrong
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,150
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I think that if the infinite worlds tnings is really real, and created by Bhunivelze, then 2-A should be good. And it wouldn't be too faroff with FF lore; the FFV Void and villain Neo Exdeath is already Multiverse+; so 2-A seems fine; unless we got proof against it.
Still, 2-A FF means we can have some SMT VS FF stuff; finally...
Still, 2-A FF means we can have some SMT VS FF stuff; finally...
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- #107
I do not understand how they can agree with matthew if he did not give his reasons, I gave enough evidence for 1-A or at least 1-C that follows all criteria of wikias, denying that would deny the system itself.
On fal'Cie, humans are able to create 4D life forms, they have created a 4D duplicate based on Amodar data that is also human, the original Amodar exists in the coliseum and it is inferior to Snow being that the snow is vastly inferior to fal'Cie to cactuar even the cactuar being weakened and "without power" due to the defeat of the Orphan follows Fragments After.
The random enemies of the game are described as multi-dimensional life form and it is not a hyperbole since those who catalog the monsters of the game is the Academy which has a great knowledge about space time and study about paradoxes.
the fal'Cie would not be 5D just by transcoding the humans but the knowledge of them in themselves, Amodar is also a human and this includes him, the proto fal'Cie himself able to create and manipulate space times and create duplicates is just a copy of an incomplete prototype based on tiny pieces of a fal'Cie, already the body of the fal'Cie Eden is a dimension composed by many other dimensions quoted as being Tesseract.
In Type 0 it says that the true Arecia exists outside the spiral on the throne of Pulse so the one that appears in the game is not the real one.
And it was not Bhunivelze who created an infinite multiverse but Arecia, and she is able to reset this multiverse casually, so much so that she has done it literally 600 million times
On fal'Cie, humans are able to create 4D life forms, they have created a 4D duplicate based on Amodar data that is also human, the original Amodar exists in the coliseum and it is inferior to Snow being that the snow is vastly inferior to fal'Cie to cactuar even the cactuar being weakened and "without power" due to the defeat of the Orphan follows Fragments After.
The random enemies of the game are described as multi-dimensional life form and it is not a hyperbole since those who catalog the monsters of the game is the Academy which has a great knowledge about space time and study about paradoxes.
the fal'Cie would not be 5D just by transcoding the humans but the knowledge of them in themselves, Amodar is also a human and this includes him, the proto fal'Cie himself able to create and manipulate space times and create duplicates is just a copy of an incomplete prototype based on tiny pieces of a fal'Cie, already the body of the fal'Cie Eden is a dimension composed by many other dimensions quoted as being Tesseract.
In Type 0 it says that the true Arecia exists outside the spiral on the throne of Pulse so the one that appears in the game is not the real one.
And it was not Bhunivelze who created an infinite multiverse but Arecia, and she is able to reset this multiverse casually, so much so that she has done it literally 600 million times
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I'm with Matt in that you can't exact cross-scale FF Type-0 and XIII because they make no references to each other aside from the presence of Fal'Cie and l'Cie.
I'm neutral on the XIII-2 and Lightning Returns matters. I haven't played through either game enough to properly judge the validity of this.
I'm neutral on the XIII-2 and Lightning Returns matters. I haven't played through either game enough to properly judge the validity of this.
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- #110
It is reported by the director of FFXIII that the goddess Etro appearing in different games refer to the same entity, only this fact already connects all games
http://m.ign.com/articles/2013/10/28/final-fantasy-15-may-be-linked-to-final-fantasy-13
http://m.ign.com/articles/2013/10/28/final-fantasy-15-may-be-linked-to-final-fantasy-13
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- #113
What is old or not the interview will change into something? the director is the same and Etro also appears in FFXV even in his film, the myth is not as worked up as in other games, and would not say it is old because the interview is 2013, the game is 2016 (although was finalized in 2015).
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Let's say for all intents and purposes that the Voids described in Final Fantasies V, VIII, XI, XIII, and XIV are the exact same void. The place before all the worlds. Assuming we take World of Final Fantasy into consideration, that is a mere High 2-A at best, hence why I am ok with it. That is only assuming the Void is universal across all games.
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- #115
Forgot to mention that void also appears in III but ok, void entities do not have the same level of power always because they never manifest in the corporeal world directly according to XIV and in Dissidia Exdeath mentions that it (he) was only an image he created using void, so Cloud of Darkness in FFIII has power to destroy only two universes despite its true form being superior to Exdeath.
If we consider that void this beyond all universes of the franchise that are infinite is High 2-A we also have to take into account that the universes themselves are not always limited to a single universe, type 0 and XIII are passed in different universes but both have infinite timelines, this would leave the void as at least low 1-C
If we consider that void this beyond all universes of the franchise that are infinite is High 2-A we also have to take into account that the universes themselves are not always limited to a single universe, type 0 and XIII are passed in different universes but both have infinite timelines, this would leave the void as at least low 1-C
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- #117
In fact though it does not appear in IV it has connection to the game, because in FFIIII it is said that void was born the crystals that gave rise to the whole existence, and in FFIV there is a character called The Creator that the creator of the crystals, having Although FFI, FFIII, FFIV and FFV have the crystals same affinity, the same root, in another word the same creator, that in the case would be The Creator that appears in FFIV and possibly in FF legendads.
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- #118
although the creator was unstable and weakened in FFIV.
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- #120
PaChi2 said:
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