Final Fantasy IX levels

[Zer00Negativo]

This information I already wanted to bring some time ago, which is intended to update the FFIX characters to universal level based on information that I will show.

After traveling through Memoria and viewing their memories and the memories of the planet, the party arrives at the Gate to Space (which in context and according to Databook "space" refers to the universe) and find Kuja who is about to destroy the 'Crystal' , this crystal in the game is described to be the origin of all creation, source of all life and that gave rise to all things, and Kuja destroying it would destroy Terra, Gaia, the universe and all that exists.

I have seen people saying that this is a translation error and that the Japanese translation does not mention this, but I checked the Japanese version of the game and as you can see as much the English translation as the Japanese original is mentioned that the universe would be destroyed.

• ÒÇîÕà¿ÒüªÒü«ÕºïÒü¥ÒéèÒÇéµ£ÇÕêØÒü«Òé»Òâ¬Òé╣Òé┐Òâ½
• "The beginning of everything. The first crystal

• ÒÇîÒüôÒüôÒüïÒéëÕà¿ÒüªÒüîÞ¬òþöƒÒüùÒüƒÒéôÒüáÒéê
• Everything was born from here

• ÒÇîÒüØÒüåÒÇüÒüôÒéîÒüîþ▓ëÒÇàÒü½þáòÒüæµòúÒéîÒü░ÒÇüÕà¿ÒüªÒü»þäíÒüÅÒü¬ÒéïÒéôÒüá…
• Yes, if it breaks up into pieces, everything is gone ...

• ÒÇîÒé¼ÒéñÒéóÒéé, ÒâåÒâ®ÒééÒÇüÕ«çÕ«ÖÒéé…
• Terra, Gaia, the universo too...

Some may argue that this would be an outlier but this is impossible because minutes after you defeat Kuja Necron arises and sends the party to another dimension, from there Necron also mentions that it would destroy all existence and return the world to the Zero World, where nothing exists.

I've already seen people saying that the zero world refers only to a world with no one, I've also seen people saying that Necron wanted to rebuild their lifeless world and that's why it's called the world zero, but in FF's wikia the zero world refers to The Void, but despite the wikia being trustworthy I again checked the Japanese version of this scene to be sure, and at no time is it mentioned "zero world" but rather "nothing", Necron says precisely that it would return all existence to nothingness.

• ÒüôÒü«Õ«çÕ«ÖÒü½Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÒüÖÒü╣ÒüªÒü«ÒééÒü«Òü«þø«þÜäÒü»ÒÇüµ╗àÒü│ÒéïÒüƒÒéüÒüáÒüæÒü½ÒüéÒéïÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÒüôÒü¿Òüî
• The purpose of everything that exists in this universe is that it is just to perish.

• þºüÒü«Õ¢╣þø«Òü»Òü▓Òü¿Òüñ'
• My role is one

• õ¢òÒééþöƒÒéÇÒüôÒü¿Òü«Òü¬Òüäõ¢òÒééÚÇ▓ÕîûÒüÖÒéïÒüôÒü¿Òü«Òü¬ÒüäÒé»Òâ¬Òé╣Òé┐Òâ½ÒüÖÒéëþöƒÒü¥ÒéîÒéïÒüôÒü¿Òü«Òü¬ÒüäþäíÒü«õ©ûþòîÒü½ÒüÖÒü╣ÒüªÒéÆÚéäÒüÖÒüôÒü¿
• Return everything to the world of nothing, there is nothing to created, nothing to evolve, even the crystal that never evolves, nothing.'

• þäíÒü½ÚéäÒéîÚÇåÒéëÒüåÒüôÒü¿Òü»Òü¬ÒüäÒüØÒéîÒüîþöƒÒüìÒéïÒüÖÒü╣ÒüªÒü«ÒééÒü«Òü«ÚíÿÒüä
• Return to nothing, the desire for all living things

Notice that in this scene the kanji þäí (Mu) is used, which means literally nothing or void, and this is the same kanji used in the series to refer to The Void in other games of the franchise as in FFIII and FFV.




Conclusion: Zero World is only a translation error, in the original it refers all the time to void, and in the franchise it is common characters that control the void have powers to destroy universes, so it would not be inconsistent.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Neutral, but prefer to here input from other FF experts.

Edit: Everlasting spoke, and it basically sounds more like a chain reaction rather than a feat according to him. The Crystal being destroyed would cause universal destruction, but it's most likely a glass cannon. And there's no proof that anyone manipulates the Void to the same extent Exdeath or other characters do.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

the very existence of the crystal is what keeps the universe standing, the crystal to have created the universe must have generated the equivalent energy and that energy should be contained in the crystal before it is released, so the crystal must have sufficient strength to withstand a universal energy, and we are talking about a universe that precedes void and there is no time in void, so its space-time was also generated by the crystal, and for something 4D to be generated then the crystal would need to be 4D.

And even if it was a chain reaction (something you're going to have to prove) it would not change anything because the energy generated would still be the same, after all you do not destroy the universe with your time only with an energy 5-A.

And Exdeath just controls the power of void, Necron is originally from void, plus he even mentions that he would return everything back to nothing and mention the universe during his talk.

 

[TartaChocholate]

I remember very little about IX so I can't speak in favour or against this proposal. However, some things need to be checked out to go through with. If what Everlasting is saying is true the Crystal doesn't need 3-A/low 2-C energy to work as it's just part of a larger process that would collapse as one of it's pieces is missing, so it's better to make sure that is not the case.

Regarding Necron, it's also important to know more of what he meant exactly. I mean, what he means about destroying may be a bit blurry: does he mean he can destroy all the universe at once? Will he destroy it gradually? He's from the void, but what is his connection actually? Being native from the Void doesn't necessarily mean Necron has control of it, so it's important to verify it.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

this would be impossible, the universe needs the crystal not the opposite, the crystal can survive without a universe, but the universe can not live without the crystal, the crystal was who gave rise to the universe so it would have to have produced an energy of 2.825x10 ^ 92 joules, which is the energy necessary to create / destroy all matter in the universe, not only that since even after the universe was created it still depended on the crystal, so every planet, every star of the universe depended on the crystal to exist and according to the inverse square law, the further away a body is from the other, the more energy between them is lost so to compensate for this loss a much greater energy needs to be generated, and to destroy the earth is a star on the edge of the universe is necessary generate energy equivalent to 4.4087x10 ^ 26 joules (universal level) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Assaltwaffle/New_GBE_Formula:_Revised_Attack_Potency

The crystal would need to generate an energy equivalent to these every second, yes every second, because if the crystal were destroyed the whole universe would perish at the same instant, then the stars need to be receiving that energy constantly at every moment so they could remain existing . But I am speaking only of matter, the crystal is not limited only to the creation of matter but also of time and space, in the game there is a place called Memoria, it is like the flow of time and keeps the memory of the whole universe, the more Zidane deepened in Memoria, more on time he returned, even witnessing the moment of the fusion of Terra and Gaia, an event that happened at least 1000 years before the beginning of the game, and the more he continued his journey through Memoria, more the universe was becoming empty, until it reached a point where there was no worlds, not even the space itself or even the Memoria, the only thing that existed was the Crystal.

And about Necron, you asked me what changes it to be a void entity, good basically Necron just like void before universes, time and space, that would put it to at least 4D, and it's practically impossible to know how long it would take to to do this because there is no time in void, besides that according to his dialago everything indicates that it would be destroyed instantly because until time would be destroyed, and can not divide a feat involving time and space because it is necessary an energy greater than infinite to reach low 2-C.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Crystal would be Low 2-C scale, so the 3-A levels of energy is irrelevant. And also, the Crystal is just a cog in the machine sort of scenario and doesn't really have that impressive durability. It holds up the universe with magic, but the crystal itself is a glass cannon.

As for Necron being born from the void, that seems a bit vague. I wouldn't use that as a Tier 2 feat, but waiting for Ever to elaborate on that. Existing before time if it's literal could be an Infinite speed feat at best.

Edit: He mentioned that some Final Fantasy games also have their own voids. Not every void is The Void that originated from FFV. Dissidia does have context of it being the same void as well as FFIII, but not sure if IX has proof.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

Crystal is just a cog in the machine sort of scenario

this would be impossible because the crystal exists before the "scenario" actually he who created the scenario, and as I said before, if it were just a gear then it would work in conjunction with the universe, but it can survive without the universe and the universe can not survive without it.

Glass canno

This would be contradictory, if the crystal can create something 4D then it tq be 4D so it does not make sense to have 3D resistance, and before the crystal created the universe the energy had to be contained inside the crystal, if the crystal had resistance less than his power, then he would have broken with his own energy.

Necron said it would destroy all existence, unless time and space to be classified as "non-existence" they are included in the speech of Necron.

And the Voids are the same, evidence of this is Gilgamesh appearing for Zidane, Gilgamesh uses the void to travel between the worlds, and that Gilgamesh is the same of all, proof of this is in FFXIII-2 where it is mentioned that every weapon he owns is from a FF world, including Excalibur that he claims to have picked up on the kingdom of Alexandria in FFIX, still on FFXIII-2 he is a character from the Colosseum that exists inside the void, and Gilgamesh was superior to the Amodar who has 4D avatars in the physical world. And in FF Mobius Gilgamesh says to have visited 15 FF games and including side storys, and he gives the various reference, and even after all I said, Gilgamesh was afraid of Zidane.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Physics aren't really the issue here, I mean what you're describing is in the case the Crystal is sustaining the Universe by itself. What I meant is that we need some backup to make sure that it's not as Everlasting describes and the Crystal is an entity in itself sustaining the universe and not just the foundations of it. Think of it as destroying the main pillars of a building so it will collapse under its own weight in a case where you can't just blow up the building on your own. If you have that proof then we're good to go with this revision.

The Void may not have time, but the main universe does. That's why I think some more info on Necron is needed (Ultimanias may shed more light on him). I mean, there's a difference between destroying everything in one go and having to lay waste to one planet/galaxy at a time. Which raises another question, does anything indicate that his presence will bring the properties of the Void with him and to which scale? That could help, I mean... will him being here cause the world decay, time to disappear or some ExDeath-y stuff like that?

 

[Zer00Negativo]

Literally everything you said I already replied:

• Crystal is not a piece of the universe because it exists before the universe, it created the universe and its existence keeps it existing.
• the Crystal does not depend on the universe to exist, but the universe yes.
• the crystal created the universe so it must have generated an equivalent energy.
• the crystal also spawned space-time so it must be 4D.
• Arguments like "glass cannon" is illogical because he created a 4D construct and his own existence kept space-time in existence, it is impossible to do something like that being merely a 3D (and before the universe was created the energy had to be contained within the crystal, if the crystal had resistance inferior to its energy it would have been broken with the own power, so this argument would be illogical)
• no existing time in void, so questions like "How long he will do this?" is irrelevant, it will just do, instantly. It would contradict an entity not limited by time to take time to do something (and it would do so within its own dimension).
• But if we want to use this argument of his not to specify the time, then we would have to downgrade in several characters of the franchise, like the own Cloud of Darkness.
• Yes, in the universe has time, and it would be equally destroyed by Necron and this is a 4D done, so Necron has to be 4D.
• There is nothing in void, so the only way for Necron to do this would be with nothing, because if he does this with "something" he would contradict Void's nature to be nothing at the moment it exits "something" in it.

But if you really want to check Ultimania does not have problem because I also have it:

"A being awoken by the fear, despair, and hated of Kuja, who discovered, with the fulfillment of his ambition near, that he had little time left to live. It rejects the cycle of life through the crystal and attempts to return every world , including Terra and Gaia, to nothing. The final enemy to confront."


https://thelifestream.net/forums/threads/ff-20th-anniv-ultimania-characters.94/page-2#post-6869


Honestly it's a bit annoying to make an argument based on official material and the only argument I get is "that person said that's it and that's it" as if you were an absolute and incontestable truth, all my arguments being based on material original, Japanese game and official sources like Ultimania, so using arguments that were not presented in these sources is just supposition without basis.

 

[TartaChocholate]

We're just bringing different variables to make sure what you're proposing is solid enough to go through and the evidence you have can back it up.

You need to understand though that we have to make sure that every single variable is checked before going with upgrades, we can't just slap a higher tier to a character just because we may interpret some bits of information in one way or another, especially given hyperboles and uncertain terms are pretty common in fiction. Asking for a throurough research is a minimal thing especially with huge upgrades such as this, so we can't just settle with "it sounds convincing, let's go with it" or "it says bring the end, so it totally means destroy the universe" without double checking as there are many users that try to upgrade verses they like enormously based on evidence that in the end doesn't cut it, this skepticism is necessary to try to keep things as accurate as possible.

If the Crystal indeed exists before the Universe, created the Universe and is sustaining it by itself then this could work out. My confusion also comes on how every planet has it's own crystal sustaining its life in a cycle (the crystal dies, returns to the cosmos, a new one is born and more life comes) and the belief that destroying the original crystal would actually wreck this entire system making it collapse. But if you have the quote or description stating the original Crystal works independently, or that it created and sustains the universe by itself then this could work (I did read your original post, but Kuja's descriptions mostly confirm the disastrous effects and how the original Crystal is the source of everything, but not quite the two points I mean).

I still have my doubts about Necron, but I have to admit I am pretty ignorant about beings like him, especially how a being from a timeless place interacts with beings that have time. How do their speeds measure up and all that? Though I was mistaken on one thing, he definitely is going for a space-time destruction (as the Void implies that), not just the matter of the universe as I first though...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I understand what the OP is trying to do, and the result of the crystals being destroyed is indeed a Low 2-C destruction feat, but the problem is the Crystals have no proof of being as durable as their magic. And furthermore, the crystals don't even remotely follow the laws of physics to begin with. Existing before the Universe has nothing to do with its durability, but that depending on context could be a speed or hax feat.

And as for Necron, him being born from the Void doesn't automatically make him Universal and is indeed much stronger than Kuja. But existing from the void or "Before time and space" wouldn't really effect his Tier. It could effect his speed though, granting him Infinite speed, but I'd prefer input from other staff first.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

yes the planets have crystals forming their nucleus, but the original crystal exists before the planets exist so it exists before any crystal, in the game itself says that the original crystal world / crystal exists from the worlds and before the universe itself


In the translation Garland cites "space" but in the original Japanese it says Õ«çÕ«Ö (universe)

 

[Zer00Negativo]

The crystal must have durability equal to its power, after all it has endured the creation of the universe, it would be illogical to contain a universal energy within itself but not enough resistance to withstand its own energy without breaking, you can disregard physics but not logic, it is kind says that a paper room can withstand a nuclear explosion, it is impossible the room has to have a resistance equal to or greater than the explosion, and the crystal using magic does not change at all because magic is just a form of energy and as it can be measured, in Ultimania itself it says that the crystals of Terra and Gaia in time can lose all their energy and when this happens the planet in question will be finished and return the cosmos (Garland merged the planets exactly because the crystal of the Terra was almost without energy and this would destroy its world, the crystal of the world follows the same principle but in univesal scales) https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...lopment-materials-p-40-of-the-ffix-ultimania/

And Necron being of the Void its body has the same properties of Cloud of darkness and Neo-Exdeath (nothing) would be illogical 3 beings coming from the same place, using the same power and having its body composed of the same substance but only Necron to be considered 3D.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

Sorry when I write "Earth", it's that Earth in my language is Terra so sometimes the translator confuses