FF7 Speed Upgrade (or just Sephiroth)

[The_real_cal_howard]

So, I've listened to One Winged Angel for the first time yesterday, and kinda got obsessed. And I've been listening to/watching Safer Sephiroth's final battle a bunch of times. For one, I can say that I no longer have a problem with the Supernova calc. That thing is just...scary. Not just the explosion, but the math at the beginning. I'm a physics major and...ugh. But man, does that meteor move fast. Fast enough to be calced well into the MFTL+ category. At the very least, this scales to Sephiroth's attack speed. At best, it would be his TK speed, which we'd use for normal speed. At next-to-best, we'd scale it to the crew, who were capable of reacting fast enough to save their own skins when it hit. Ne me mori facias indeed...


Sephiroth's Super Nova (HQ Wide)

For reference

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Looks fine to me. Better message Cross and Reppu about this along with calc members.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I'm not into Final Fantasy so don't bother. This is more of Everlastings' department.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

How did I get you two confused?...I guess I just made the Kingdom Hearts and FF connection. So yes Ever would be best to comment here.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Ever is into both verses. I'm only into KH though I don't mind Ever talking to me about it.

It's not that hard to confuse the two of us on what we know and into.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I used to confuse Ever and Perp back in the day due to the similarities of their names lol. But in all seriousness, I'll get Repp and Ever.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Okay.

 

[Reppuzan]

Huh, can't believe I never thought of this.

Not sure if we can stamp an exact number on this, but considering the fact that it came far out of the galaxy and reached the Sun in about forty seconds I guess that is MFTL+.

 

[Sera_EX]

It's MFTL+ but need a calc to be properly guaged. My little sister-in-law already made a thread about how there's no degree on how much MFTL+ a character is on some profiles, just reasons.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

In that case, I'll try to get Lina or Darkanine (but I'll also attempt to calc this myself.)

 

[Reppuzan]

Ever also gives a thumbs up, but it only scales to attack speed he says.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Not sure if we can stamp an exact number on this

Math should be simple enough. Angizing the galaxy and using the timeframe fo it to reach it should give a good enough value. I'll get to it soon.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Aight, Calcs done.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Darkanine/Final_Fantasy:_Supernova_Speed

The result is a bit lowballed, but it should be a good enough approximation.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that MFTL+ attack speed seems reasonable. If somebody else in the calc group accepts Darkanine's calculation blog, you can assign a specific value as well.

 

[PaChi2]

I have an issue with this: Sephiroth doesnt use the meteor to attack the characters, instead, he directs it to the Sun (much bigger target). Why? The meteor should be more than enough to wipe out the planet. My point is: Sephi doesnt have full control of the attack.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

If he can still call upon the Meteor, he should still have MFTL+ attack speed with the attack and have it not scale to anyone else.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Can we not apply logic here similar to that of a throwing feat, therefore making most of the FF7 cast MFTL+ accross the board? That seems to be the best course of action to me.

Oh, and to the uninitiated, the most powerful Final Fantasy summons tend to create a small pocket universe to blow up stuff in. That's why one can see those planets getting destroyed multiple times.

@Cal

You heard One Winged Angel for only the first time a few days ago? Aw, man, as a video game music expert, I am apalled! jk

By the way, I have a PhD in video game music. Just saying. Ask me anything about it.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@FDF While it is true that Antvasima has told me to refrain from discuss personal stuff in content revisions. I have my concerns as none of the characters in Final Fantasy VII has reacted to it as they all got hit by the attack so this will only scaled to Sephiroth's attack speed and only to him. Sadly I also think this will turn out to be a outlier as none of the feats throughout the entire Final Fantasy game series has them put at MFTL+ as using this logic will cause issues.

For the sake of consistency, we may have to deem it as a outlier unless there are feats that will put them at MFTL+.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Well, what I think is that via the throwing feat principle, we could apply this speed to all of Sephiroth's attacks because he attacked using telekinesis.

Also keep in mind that this is the verse with Materia, a common resource one can get at a flea market and also bust continents with. All I can find at a flea market is unliscenced TMNT toys... Oh, but the point is that one should not underestimate the verse based on, well, conventional wisdom, for better or worse.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@FDF Except this is not a meteor feat though as this is a super nova feat. The Black Materia was the one Materia that summoned the meteor. This one attack involve destroying a solar system without the meteor in question. Also I don't see how a rock will inflict 4-B to a solar system when you see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLK2k1fvW34

In addition as here is the final fantasy wikia putting it as such: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Materia_(Final_Fantasy_VII)

Other than that, I see it being a high 6-A by the full ending cutscene.

Edit: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Supernova_(ability) is considered a seperate attack altogether.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

The meteor flew at MFTL+ speeds. That is the feat in question. If you think FF7 being 4-B is false, this is not the place to raise a claim. I hold that Sephiroth being able to move the meteor at MFTL+ speeds should apply to most of the cast's speed ratings because we treat throwing feats in a similar fashion and because if he can send a meteor a galaxy away flying at such speeds, it stands to reason that he can send his own energy projectiles and such flying at such speeds as well. This applies to the characters who fought him.

As far as the arguement that Sephiroth had no control over the meteor goes, let us consider that he navigated a meteor from well over a galaxy's distance away at MFTL+ speeds into a star. That sounds like a feat of skill to me. Why did Sephiroth send the meteor directly at the FF7 crew? Because they could dodge that more easily thatn they could dodge an omnidirectional supernova.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I hold that Sephiroth being able to move the meteor at MFTL+ speeds should apply to most of the cast's speed ratings because we treat throwing feats in a similar fashion and because if he can send a meteor a galaxy away flying at such speeds, it stands to reason that he can send his own energy projectiles and such flying at such speeds as well.

I don't agree with you here, it's not like Sephiroth picked up a meteor and physically tossed it. It was moved through the use of telekinesis (or just summoned) which shouldn't scale to the speed of his physical attacks.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

@AMM

Would a telekinesis feat of a certain speed not allow one to scale other energy projection/manipulation feats to it?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I suppose so, it wouldn't make sense if other attacks of a similar nature (things summoned, or moved telekinetically) were much slower than it is during his supernova attack. But I'm unsure if we should just slap this speed value on all characters due to that being the case.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@FDF I recall I was not so sure about Sephiroth after the events of FF7 which it was Advent Children's version of Sephiroth as we don't see character training out of combat, but I suppose they weren't out of shape most of the time. This time how do you think the meteor in question was summoned into the world of Gaia? (Which btw they did slow down the meteor considerably as it didn't hit the ground for that matter as it was destroyed during its entry into atmosphere)

No feats in FF7 suggest they have telekinesis as I recall it will mostly be spells and other things. Materia is the only thing that existed in FF7 and hasn't made any other appearances in other FF games. Even then we can not ignore the ending cutscene as we see how the lifestream being manipulated by Aerith to slow down the meteor considerably and we don't see it instantly destroying the world. The supernova one is the only attack I think will put the FF7 characters as they are now.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I think it would be fine. Of course, this scales to only Sephiroth's 4-B keyes and those who scale from them. As far as the rest of the playable cast is concerned, I think this situation is akin to King Dedede being quite sluggish in comparison to Kirby yet logically still being well into the MFTL+ territory.

On another note, perhaps we should begin considering putting this principle about the energy speed on an official page of some sort, should it prove to be generally accepted as reasonable. Perhaps a page about throwing feats?

EDIT: Ninja'd by Starkiller215.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@FDF It won't though as the Supernova feat hit all of the characters in question and they were unable to react as shown in gameplay. Making a exception will only make things worse without taking into consideration of the circumstances of the feat(s) in question. Also it is like saying Sephiroth can speed blitz everyone thanks to his one attack being MFTL+ as none of his other attacks has remotely been shown on this scale. Only he has the ability to deploy Supernova on his enemies.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Oh, I think I see the problem! Starkiller, you are aware that the meteor has the MFTL+ feat, not the explosion of the sun, right? I want to make sure we're on the same page before continuing.

EDIT: I'm not quite sure what we're disagreeing on here...

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@FDF The meteor in question has slow down during the entry of entering Gaia's atmosphere as shown here: https://youtu.be/W4_sw0trdNc?t=8m20s

This started from 8:20 as the meteor having a MFTL+ is not a okay thing to say as the cutscenes showing the meteor in question implying it is not truly the case. If it did have the MFTL+ rating, then the planet in question will have been destroyed in a instant timeframe. Since it isn't the case, then we are back at square one if you ask me for my personal opinion.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

The meteor in the video cal shows (the one Darkanine did a calculation for) is not the same meteor in the ending cutscene. Furthermore, there is the matter of cinematic timing to be considered for the seemingly slow ending cutscene meteor.

EDIT: If we take cinematic timing too seriously, then we have the Advent Children cast being only Subsonic-ish due to their fighting at the same rate civilians ran about. Plus, there's Zack getting shot...

 

[Reppuzan]

@Starkiller

As Freeman said, the meteor is not the same one. Meteor is summoned with the Black Materia, while Super Nova is Sephiroth's personal Limit Break. And yes this should scale to attack speed given that Sephiroth actively calculates the coordinates necessary for him to manipulate the meteor to achieve his intended effect. (thus the smattering of numbers on screen).

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Reppuzan This is sorta a questionable thing as Sephiroth did not truly calculates the coordinates to manipulate the meteor as the animation was for the Supernova one which it seemingly show a meteor turning into a supernova if we use two differing scenes.

The animation for the attack show a meteor turning into a supernova yet, despite the sun being blow up into a explosion, which it isn't the case when we see the same exact meteor in the ending cutscene introduced again in Advent Children and yet the star was perfectly fine to cast light onto the planet. Sephiroth, while he was ruthless, isn't completely in character per say as he knows about the Black Materia and he used it to summon it, but saying he could completely control the meteor in question is what I saying here as we don't know his fullest extent on controlling this ability. Ironic enough my Final Fantasy knowledge goes with mainly FF7 as I happen to be more familiar with it than other Final Fantasy games.

Also he never intend to destroy Gaia as in Advent Children, I remember him stating about how he is gonna use the planet as a vessal. His intentions was to take control of the planet, not just to destroy it. Also his "mother" being Jenova kinda already push him into further madness if anything so I doubt he will know how to control the meteor to the fullest.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Figured this was as good a time as any to bring it up.

First, this speed feat (The Bahamut Fury one) that would basically buff the entire cast.

Second, this post that, coupled with the above, would make Knights of the Round and those like them Solar System level, as Bahamut Fury's dimension is basically its own solar system.

Third, as said here, Minerva is more powerful than any summon, as well as the Emerald Weapon, and yet Zack defeats her.

Basically, this results in pretty much everyone being some degree of 4-B and MFTL+.

 

[Dark649]

The Minerva fight is opzional and probably non-canon.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Ever Since you brought these feats up, I suppose I don't have a problem with MFTL+ rating as being a long time fan of FF7 has its ups and downs. My apologies as sometimes I have difficulties to believe in things unless solid evidence has been brought up.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Dark

Why would we disregard an in-game event just because it's optional?

 

[Gargoyle_1]

This seems a bit like an outlier, this is the only case of anywhere near MFTL+ speed, and if this were to only apply to Sephiroth, then him losing in any case is ludicrous PIS. And he lost to Cloud in a solo fight, and lost to the party.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Dark I thought composite profiling will help cover that part as it is the case for the Final Fantasy character or not?

@Ever Just know I was not questioning the 4-B rating exactly as I am more akin to see a bit more reasoning for it as well.

 

[Gargoyle_1]

I also feel Bahamut's flight feat would be a lot faster if he was MFTL+, it did put up a fight with Zack and the FF7 party.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Gargoyle Hmmm perhaps you might be right on that. I will need some time to think over what is being say here, then after a hour or so, I will see if I can agree or disagree with the proposed upgrade as I still have some doubts about it.