Feathrine's note and The Creator

[QuasiYuri]

Since making a revision for the whole verse take times, I just wanted to quickly talk about the note on Feathrine profile:

To summarize; it's about "Feathrine not being a Creator", however there's 2 problem with this note:

1- It's said that the japanese version says otherwise, however the link supposed to prove it is the english one. It's already kinda weird I think.

2- Umineko TIPS explain that Creators are Witches above Voyagers. In case you think it's a case of "there's no plural", the TIPS also said that they're called Gods by Voyagers, and it's how Lambdadelta call them in her memoirs. It's also logic with Maria being on "the path of the Creator" .

The only difference is that Feathrine didn't losed her sense of self/meaning, but she can't maintain it without her device. So she can somehow be considered below the other Gods? It wouldn't change a lot without a true revision anyway.

Now, we can also question the fact that the Creator wasn't mentionned as a single entity any time in the whole verse; and like the note says it "Japanese has no plural", meaning it can be in fact just refer to the collectivity of Gods or to the title of Creator (singular/plural in japanese depend of the context/what is the subject).

In short:

Feathrine's note should disappear, since she's indeed "a Creator", going by TIPS' descriptions and the narration.

The existence of "The Creator" as a single entity should be discussed, and if it is agreed to not be a single entity, then its page should be deleted.

I'm planning to make a revision for the whole verse when I have time, but I think this can easily be solved separately.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Agree

 

[Antvasima]

DarkLK has completely examined the verse inside and out, and he disagrees. Also, Promestein will eventually revise it.

 

[Ionliosite]

Disagreed for obvious reasons, and I agree with Ant we should wait for Prom's verse wide revision.

 

[QuasiYuri]

While I don't doubt that some people also examined the verse, the note is still wrong for both point, and I don't see any arguments against this.

Also "waiting for a revision" is the reason which made some verses outdated for years (Umineko included).

I don't see how the wiki can do its purpose if we ignore analysis without any real reason/argument except "someone knowledgeable disagreed before" or "this specific person is supposed to do it".

 

[Ionliosite]

I don't see how the wiki can do its purpose if we ignore analysis without any real reason/argument except "someone knowledgeable disagreed before" or "this specific person is supposed to do it".

Look, when dealing with such high tiered verse such as this, it's totally better to look for people who are knowledgeable on it to check it. Umineko is very extensive and complex, so if you're knowledgeable on it, I would recommend you to help Promestein on revising it so we can have solid CRTs.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I didn't said that we don't need knowledgeable people, it's obvious that it's a need. It's more the part about just refusing without arguments with this as a reason.

From the previous CRTs I made, revising whole verse like Homestuck or Demonbane can be done as long as it's complete, structured, and clear enough, even if it's complex/extensive.


For this one, I would just like some arguments for the disagreement, since even if we consider the reasons I proposed as wrong, the note still obviously need some form of change.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Ion. We should close this.

 

[Antvasima]

You can search for past in-depth Umineko discussions in which DarkLK made thorough explanations if you wish.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I already read them in the past, and the fact that we still need revisions/the pages are outdated since years kinda prove that these discussions were likely useful but not enough.

However closing a thread for this reason is a kind of fallacy that the wiki itself listed (Appeal to tradition), and the reason for why we still have outdated pages.

Not only is if counter-productive, but it also limit the contributions by saying "It's not this guy or this one, so it's automatically no without real explanations of why", even when something can be true. Tho I guess it's more a thing linked to how the wiki work here.

 

[Antvasima]

You are most likely not well-informed enough to make such a call, and neither are we, whereas DarkLK has written very extensive analyses in the past, and shared them with Promestein.

 

[Udlmaster]

You are most likely not well-informed enough to make such a call, and neither are we, whereas DarkLK has written very extensive analyses in the past, and shared them with Promestein.

However, what Yuki is saying can still be correct even if someone who is knowledgable on the verse Previously said it was something else.

In this case, Yuki's revision is perfectly fine, this shouldn't be an a case where ANYONE should appeal to someone's authority to silence opposition.

The revision has been going on for years and nothing has been going on, it is not Yuki's fault to make their own revision when the "revision" is no longer activately doing anything.

I agree with Yuki, the note is just objectively incorrect.

And as someone who has had to take the load of an entire complex narrative, doing it alone or in pairs is absurd and is bound to lead to faults, in this case, factual incorrectness.

However, unlike WoD, people are willing to help and there are knowledgable people on the verse, including myself, shutting them down and FORCING them to be quiet and for Dark to have all the say is an Appeal to Authority.

This does not mean to discredit Dark's work on the matter, but you have handed the reins of an entire verse's revision to someone completely unknowledgable before, but in this case, there are dozens who are knowledgable and willing.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I definitely don't want us to severely mess things up before Promestein gets the chance to properly revise the verse, and she told me yesterday that she will do so when she finds the time. So my apologies, but I will not accept such a drastic change.

You can ask DarkLK to comment here if you wish though.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Thanks for the support Udl.

If Promestein's revision is supposed to be soon, then it's cool. I was thinking about how it went for Homestuck, with Azzy being supposed to revise the verse and the profiles becoming more and more outdated each year. I just hope we'll not have to wait another whole year

The main change isn't such a drastic one, it's just the removal of one note. However the discussion for The Creator being an actual being or not need its own thread yeah. I'll try to ask Dark too, since this revision is truly a simple one.

However for the part about "not being well-informed enough", Umineko is one of the verse that I know the best with Homestuck, and I only claim something if I have the scans for it, which seems to me like the best way to debate about a complex verse. For now it went pretty well. Also while I don't really like to criticize others, DarkLK used scans which weren't canon to Umineko (Rewrite ones) for his explanations (it's something that people pointed in previous threads), which should at least put some doubts in the minds.

 

[Ovy7]

I agree and disagree with this.

I agree with the stuff related to Auau's note. She is a Creator Witch, or a god, like Lambda calls them. This is pretty easy to understand, considering her existence in a higher domain to those of the Witches, the domain of The Creator like some fans calls it, or the one of the gods, like the other Witches and narration calls it. This "change" won't really affect anything, it's just a clasification in the verse. If the term "Creator Witch" is that controversial, something like "higher being to the Witches" or "one of the gods/highest amongs the gods" should be good too IMO.

I disagree with the Creator bit. The scan from Tsubasa posted in the OP has Lambda literally making a distinction between gods (like Featherine) and The Creator . Not to mention that we know someone who reaches the level of The Creator loses all restriction, including meaning, yet Featherine still has that and very likely the other gods would have that too (because they should be lower than Featherine, who is the only one that reached that far high even in their domain). This disproves the theory that "The Creator" would just refere to all the gods in that domain, instead of a single entity.

This is just my 2 cents tho, and I'm waiting for DarkLK to comment here (tho I don't think it would be much different from what I've said).

 

[QuasiYuri]

I disagree with the Creator bit. The scan from Tsubasa posted in the OP has Lambda literally making a distinction between gods (like Featherine) and The Creator . Not to mention that we know someone who reaches the level of The Creator loses all restriction, including meaning, yet Featherine still has that and very likely the other gods would have that too (because they should be lower than Featherine, who is the only one that reached that far high even in their domain). This disproves the theory that "The Creator" would just refere to all the gods in that domain, instead of a single entity.

The english trad do this distinction, however" Gods and Creators" (because some gods aren't necessary Creator Witches for example) is always used to refers to these highest beings.

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Like the note explained it before, "Japanese doesn't have plural"; it's decided by the context. "The Creator" wasn't something mentionned before in the VN, while Creator as a rank/path/Creator Witches is referred several times in the story. It's more likely a case of litterary translation or translation error, unless there's something which would contradict this.

Also, Feathrine didn't reached high in their domain; she just reached it but died from it (tho it's implied to be from boredom), and got resurrected by Bern. In a sense she's a failed Creator. The others gods can't have the same condition too, since the TIPS clearly said "They are freed from all restrictions", which is what Lambdadelta re-used to refer to them not having meaning and stuff.

 

[Ovy7]

Also, Feathrine didn't reached high in their domain; she just reached it but died from it (tho it's implied to be from boredom), and got resurrected by Bern. In a sense she's a failed Creator.

I have no idea where you got this from. We got direct statement that she reached the highest posible point, and survived , so I no idea what are you talking about. Her "dying" from boredom has no corelation to this, as it's something most Witches do to pass the time.

And this isn't the only statement about this:

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The others gods can't have the same condition too, since the TIPS clearly said "They are freed from all restrictions", which is what Lambdadelta re-used to refer to them not having meaning and stuff.
They are free from all restrictions after the Final Point, including that of self/meaning, so after that point none of them would be an individual being any longer. If 1 million beings lose all restrictions, including self/meaning, would you still say that there are 1 million beings? Or say that they are more of some sort of collective conciousness thing?

This bit is more philosophical, yes, but that's basically what Witches become after passing that Final Point.

Edit: I've asked DarkLK if he can give his input on this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ovy7

Thank you for helping out.

 

[DarkLK]

Featherine reached a point where there are no restrictions (creator domain), but she returned back, since there was no place for someone with a will.

This is what was said in the original, and what was said again in Saku.

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And yes, she is neither one of some "gods" (this term applies to a wide variety of creatures, including Beatrice, Lambdadelta, Odin, Hanyuu, everyone who is on the side that creates fate and even some youkais), nor a one of the "Creator Witches" (there is no such term).

She is the highest witch who is closest to the Creator.

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Honestly, I'm tired of the same questions. You guys can do anything with pages. I will not argue.

Good luck.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

DarkLK and Ovy7 have now clarified this. We should close this thread.

 

[Ionliosite]

Yes, Dark and Ovy's evidence is pretty clear. This can be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.