[Fate] Removing some resistances

[Lynieryz]

It's very simple, there is resistance that doesn't even come from something being resisted but from the opposite, yes, it literally use scans of a character being affected by hax as a justification for resistance???

Servant Physiology

Servants are spirits summoned by the Holy Grail to compete under Masters in the Holy Grail War. Typically, they are Heroic Spirits, beings of a higher existence given to them by the people's ideals of them, but can also be Divine Spirits, Phantoms, Wraiths, and even normal humans, in extreme...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Let's start:

• Sense Manipulation, Perception Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Madness Manipulation (Type 2) and Illusion Creation: Servants would have been unaffected by the Bounded Field inside Salem if not for it's divine power. The Bounded Field weakens and messes with the senses, awareness and memories of anyone inside and drives them insane, causing auditory and visual hallucinations.

Literally everything must be removed.

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Madness Manipulation (Type 3): Servants are not affected by the madness of the Suiten Palace

This isn't literal, this is about the casino being addictive and you can't stop, normal humans are literally cool with the exception of getting addicted to gambling.

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Absorption: Shown in Stay Night and Extella Link that Servants usually resist the effects of Blood Fort Andromeda, which breaks down everyone in the range into a bloody slurry, releasing their magical energy, and then absorbs it, only suffering a reduction in statistics instead

What is resisted is the dissolving process that reduces you to blood, not absorption.

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• Resistance to Empathic Manipulation: Kiara's existence passively induces an unreasonable need to love her in those who know her, whereas Servants and Spiritron Hackers are unaffected by her presence.

I don't know if this is a case of the wrong scan being linked as there is nothing in these scans about "Servants and Spiritron Hackers being unaffected"???

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• Mind Manipulation, Biological Manipulation and Corruption (Types 1 & 2): Servants can resist Tiamat's Sea of Life to an extent. All those who enter her Sea of Life are subject to a geas on the cellular level that also corrupts any spirit origin and makes them her minions and enemies of humanity.

• Transmutation and Data Manipulation: Servants can stay in digitized area in SE.RA.PH longer than humans, whereas if a person stays long enough they are turned into data.

Both have to be changed to limited.

 

[Mageman460]

First, it is outright stated in the scans that if it could easily affect servants as it did than it needs to be one of greater caliber, implying servants have a natural resistance to it of some sort.

Second, Trying to find more information on Lambda atm from earlier in the event because I'm pretty sure there was an actual maddening effect shown on people.

Third, no clue please give a source. I'll wait for others like CRIM to give more info.

Fourth, the servants ignore Kiara's stuff in the final fights of CCC and the FGO Event. Ritsuka and Hakuno do too.

Fifth, Why do they need to be changed to limited exactly?

 

[Lynieryz]

First, it is outright stated in the scans that if it could easily affect servants as it did than it needs to be one of greater caliber, implying servants have a natural resistance to it of some sort.

Yes, and they already have resistance to lower bounded fields and the lower ones don't have these hax.

• Status Effect Inducement and Paralysis Inducement: Servants can escape low ranked Bounded Fields without any physical effort, which is already enough to weigh down the 100-150 ton Golden Hind.

Third, no clue please give a source. I'll wait for others like CRIM to give more info.

It's just how BFA works, it first reduces you to blood and then begins absorption, Archer even had his mana absorbed.[I'll see if I can find the scene]

Fourth, the servants ignore Kiara's stuff in the final fights of CCC and the FGO Event. Ritsuka and Hakuno do too.

This scan has to be added to the justification then.

Fifth, Why do they need to be changed to limited exactly?

Because that's how limited works on the Wiki, their resistance is not a complete resistance, what their resistance does is delay the effect but they will be affected anyway after a while.

 

[SweetDao]

At first, I didn't understand the first one, but after carefully reading, I understand the nuance. The whole point is that reverse scaling can't work in this situation, if I understood correctly.

Second one, if I recall correctly, we do fight "crazy" people inside that casino. Gambling addiction fr. Tho, yeah, it seems more like a comical thing rather than outright madness manipulation.

Can't say anything about the third.

Fourth seems to at least need additional scans if true.

Agree with the last ones.

 

[Mageman460]

Regarding Kiara

(4:33:05) Kiara wipes Robin, Suzuka, Cat, Tristan all at once. She describes Goetia as powerful and her weak as a beast. Says she won since we hold lust in our hearts.
(4:34:00) BB and Lip press a load button
(4:43:40) Everyone that fought kiara isn't charmed
(4:55:20) Rits resists le charm and calls kiara a hag
(4:59:35) BB nullifies all her horny skills by negating magical energy, she gets injured by servants
(5:07:55) Rits (old timeline) protects melt to the very end by using his body as a shield
Courtesy of Discord

Spoiler

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Yes, and they already have resistance to lower bounded fields and the lower ones don't have these hax.

Who says the lower ones can't have those effects? And in this case Medea pointed that if the bounded field was strong enough to affect even servants then it needed to be done by something divine, which imply that if it wasn't for the divinity they would have remained unaffected.

Because that's how limited works on the Wiki, their resistance is not a complete resistance, what their resistance does is delay the effect but they will be affected anyway after a while.

A resistance can be overcome over-time, there is no rule against that or anything that states that resistances would be limited if they can be eventually overcome.

 

[KingNanaya]

Literally everything must be removed.

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I don't really see the issue here, if I'm being honest. it says that the bounded field being able to affect a servant is due to it being from a divine spirit, implying that if it wasn't a divine spirit that made the bounded field, there would be no issue.

This isn't literal, this is about the casino being addictive and you can't stop, normal humans are literally cool with the exception of getting addicted to gambling.

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pretty sure that would constitute madness lol

I don't know if this is a case of the wrong scan being linked as there is nothing in these scans about "Servants and Spiritron Hackers being unaffected"???

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the second scan should probably be changed to one that's less vague.

What is resisted is the dissolving process that reduces you to blood, not absorption.

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pretty sure the way it works is by dissolving then absorbing. if the dissolving and absorbing are part of the same ability, then I'm pretty sure it's implied that you resist both. not 100% on that, but I don't really care about it too much tbh.

Both have to be changed to limited.

they really don't

Because that's how limited works on the Wiki, their resistance is not a complete resistance, what their resistance does is delay the effect but they will be affected anyway after a while.

no, it's not. limited is used for unconventional abilities or resistances.

 

[Tdjwo]

Mageman pretty much sums up everything I was going to say. Explained it even better. I don't agree.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Others talked about the first proposal already. It is stated that regular illusion and memory manipulation magecraft wouldn't to be so effective on Servants, therefore what must be afffecting them is divine spirit level illusion and memory manipulation.
It stands that Servants have resistance. Fast-acting boundary fields that make normal people ignore an area and not approach it are common in the verse.

This isn't literal, this is about the casino being addictive and you can't stop, normal humans are literally cool with the exception of getting addicted to gambling.

I don't know about you, but folks cheerfully betting their life savings away while they literally being dissolved isn't how I imagine a run-of-the-mill gambling habit.

Lambda Get ready! My cruel spectacle is going to melt each and every one of you, body and soul. Mash Aah! Senpai, slot machines just popped up in front of every spectator here! Siegfried Individual slot machines for every guest...? But at these rates, there can't be many people willing to Customer A Wheee! This is awesome! I love these slot machines! Customer B I can't believe we get to play slots and see Mistress Lambda's show at the same time! This is the best! Customer C I know, right!? I could play these slots all day! Golden, purple, who cares! I'll throw in every token I have! Katsushika Hokusai Wh-whoa! They're all pullin' those levers like there's no tomorrow! But, if they spend that much that fast... Customer A Wheee! Heeelp! I can't stop! I can't stooop! Customer B Aaah, I'm melting! I can feel my body dissolving beneath meee! Customer C Mmm, going bankrupt feels so good! And my body falling apart feels even better! Siegfried Oh no... It's the Rheingold all over again! They're so entranced by the show that they've become overrun with desire to play the slots! Choices We have to stop them! Siegfried Khh! I'm stopping the man next to me, but there's no way we can stop them all! We need to cut off the entrancement at its source! (Must...play...slots...) Mash No, Master! Stop! Here, I'm going to hang onto the tokens myself! Lambda ...Mmm, not bad. Not the best meal I've had by any stretch, but at least I'm nice and full. Those purple tokens represent your very existence... Remember how I said the more you use them, the more it'd decrease your level? You were just too weak to resist the temptation. Oh well, don't say I didn't warn you. Mash This is awful... Every other person here turned into a puddle...

This is explicitly called an entrancement, and people immedietly get hypnotized into into madness. So Madness Manipulation is verified.

What is resisted is the dissolving process that reduces you to blood, not absorption.

Scans should be added, but the resistance is essentially correct. Bloodfort Andromeda also sucks away magical energy and life force, and mages/Servants get said absorption slower.

Blood Fort Andromeda Rank: B Type: Anti-Army Range: 10~40 Maximum Targets: 500 People One of Medusa's Noble Phantasms, Blood Fort Andromeda is the counterpart Bounded Field thaumaturgy to Breaker Gorgon. It takes the form of magic circles placed as predetermined points. Immediately following the placing of these circles, people within the affected area will only have their life force sapped slightly, but once the field is activated, they will be quickly dissolved. However, it is difficult to affect people with knowledge of thaumaturgy. Thus, it is not a Noble Phantasm to be used for combat, but rather a Bounded Field created by Medusa to efficiently gather blood to drink for prana. In the Holy Grail War, Blood Fort Andromeda was deployed at Homurahara Academy and activated. From outside the field, the school appeared normal as usual, but the interior was stained with blood, as its name suggests.

 

[Lynieryz]

Literally everything must be removed.

About that, there is nothing about them resisting the effects, what Medea talks about is in relation to it being a Bounded field of higher rank, with the lower ones never demonstrating these effects so it is obvious that there will be no resistance.

This is explicitly called an entrancement, and people immedietly get hypnotized into into madness. So Madness Manipulation is verified.

This doesn't seem to qualify for madness manipulation, it's much more mind manipulation/empathic manipulation.

Madness Manipulation

Madness Manipulation is the ability to affect the sanity of other beings, usually in a manner that causes them to become insane. While often associated with Mind Manipulation, the methods used to achieve this effect tend to vary from character to character, with a number of these means...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Scans should be added, but the resistance is essentially correct. Bloodfort Andromeda also sucks away magical energy and life force, and mages/Servants get said absorption slower.

Both have to be changed to limited.

Both above↑↑↑ should be clarified by a mod, as I can't find any wiki standard that defines what qualifies as "limited" and it seems to be an unspoken rule.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I mean, even if you are resistant to something you can still be affected by it over long periods, to give some examples, a metal resistance to heat can be defined as its melting point but despite that if the metal is heated overtime with far lower temperatures than that the metal still could be affected (which is how blacksmith can shape metal to create things, because the metal got softer even if it didn't melt), or a person resistant to a specific disease can be affected overtime by it (due to the virus mutating, there being so many bacteria that the leukocyte can fight them all, them multiplying too fast for the leukocyte to follow the pace, etc). The hax page notes how there are many things that affect an ability and the capability to resist it, time of exposure is just one of such factors that can come to play, since not all resistances have to be immunities, cumulative effects/damage is a thing after all.

 

[KingNanaya]

I mean, even if you are resistant to something you can still be affected by it over long periods, to give some examples, a metal resistance to heat can be defined as its melting point but despite that if the metal is heated overtime with far lower temperatures than that the metal still could be affected (which is how blacksmith can shape metal to create things, because the metal got softer even if it didn't melt), or a person resistant to a specific disease can be affected overtime by it (due to the virus mutating, there being so many bacteria that the leukocyte can fight them all, them multiplying too fast for the leukocyte to follow the pace, etc). The hax page notes how there are many things that affect an ability and the capability to resist it, time of exposure is just one of such factors that can come to play, since not all resistances have to be immunities, cumulative effects/damage is a thing after all.

Pretty much this. A resistance isn't invulnerability.

 

[Lynieryz]

Just clarifying my current position in relation to the CRT:
1° Stays the same.

• Sense Manipulation, Perception Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Madness Manipulation (Type 2) and Illusion Creation: Servants would have been unaffected by the Bounded Field inside Salem if not for it's divine power. The Bounded Field weakens and messes with the senses, awareness and memories of anyone inside and drives them insane, causing auditory and visual hallucinations.

Literally everything must be removed

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2° I really think it qualifies more for mind/empathic manipulation, and @ShadowWhoWalks scans should be added to the justification.

Madness Manipulation (Type 3): Servants are not affected by the madness of the Suiten Palace

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3° I agree that it is valid but @Mageman460 scans should be added to the justification.

• Resistance to Empathic Manipulation: Kiara's existence passively induces an unreasonable need to love her in those who know her, whereas Servants and Spiritron Hackers are unaffected by her presence.

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4° All three should be changed to limited because that's how I've always seen what limited is applied to, which doesn't mean much, so the opinion of moderators is necessary as there is no standard defining what qualifies as limited.

Absorption: Shown in Stay Night and Extella Link that Servants usually resist the effects of Blood Fort Andromeda, which breaks down everyone in the range into a bloody slurry, releasing their magical energy, and then absorbs it, only suffering a reduction in statistics instead

• Mind Manipulation, Biological Manipulation and Corruption (Types 1 & 2): Servants can resist Tiamat's Sea of Life to an extent. All those who enter her Sea of Life are subject to a geas on the cellular level that also corrupts any spirit origin and makes them her minions and enemies of humanity.

• Transmutation and Data Manipulation: Servants can stay in digitized area in SE.RA.PH longer than humans, whereas if a person stays long enough they are turned into data.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

2° I really think it qualifies more for mind/empathic manipulation, and @ShadowWhoWalks scans should be added to the justification.

Just pointing out that there's another scan for Resistance to Madness Manipulation on the Servant Physiology profile.



(For context, it's about Tenma Musashi's, the final boss of Summer 4, aura).

 

[Lynieryz]

Just pointing out that there's another scan for Resistance to Madness Manipulation on the Servant Physiology profile.



(For context, it's about Tenma Musashi's, the final boss of Summer 4, aura).

It's kind of obvious that I know... both are literally in the same section, initially it was about removing the Suiten palace justification and leaving only Musashi's.

Just clarifying my current position in relation to the CRT:

2° I really think it qualifies more for mind/empathic manipulation, and @ShadowWhoWalks scans should be added to the justification.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

It's kind of obvious that I know... both are literally in the same section, initially it was about removing the Suiten palace justification and leaving only Musashi's.

Well, you didn't make any indication of that in the original post or the rest of the thread, so I thought it was possible that you just might have missed it.