Fate Achilles: MHS+ or Calc Stacking?

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

As the title asks. Wasn't sure whether to put this on a CRT or Q&A tho.

Anyways, I made this as this has been a thought that The Everlasting (as most of you have either known or heard of him before quite a bit from time to time) talked to me about on Skype.

Basically, the thing that's talked about is based on Achilles and his speed rating, particularly this part:

"After being shot in the heel and losing 70% of his speed, he's still one of the fastest Servants and easily kept up with Atalanta in her Agrius Metamorphosis state."

So from this part here in his own speed rating, Achilles had lost as much as 70% of his full speed in Apocrypha due in part of Chiron, yet despite that he was capable of easily keeping up with Atalanta in her Agrius Metamorphosis form, which boosted her stats/parameters up including her AGL to A+, a rank Achilles himself also has (probably outside of his Dromeus Komētēs NP buff). The thing is from what was understood for Everlasting, this would perhaps make Achilles around Mach 2,000 at 100% of his full speed as I'm told from him that most of the combat abled Servants here are scaled to Enkidu's NP speed which is like Mach 587.

The problem that we both saw of this is that it is, or possibly, calc stacking. Which likely or is such.

What I'm, or we, trying to get is if this is okay or does this still apply as calc stacking and thus unusable to scale Achilles up that high?

 

[AsianAntics]

His speed is definitely up there considering he's the fastest in the verse with only Dantes being debatebly faster. The numbers seem legit but I'm not too sure about calcs in general so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Yeah, that's what I and Everlasting are trying to figure out on for Achilles. Cuz if we take the fact that he's still MHS EVEN having lost 70% of his full speed from having his heel shot and STILL keep up with another MHS (and if the anime is any indication, he was still faster than Atalanta's attacks and have enough blitz to hit it before her attacks came around to hit him in return), then there's a possible chance he could be MHS+ in the verse with no one to really match him.

I did thought Chiron might possibly scale til I had to be noted that it was more with him having his Eye of Mind + Clairvoyance combo that allowed him to see it coming. DK anymore of that for him.

Dantes and maybe Kerry EMIYA (the Assassin) might even out or even blitz him but Dantes is kinda cheating since its his NP that would let him do it while EMIYA's I don't think anyone figured how fast he'd be by taking his Chrono Rose (Time Alter) into consideration.

And there is also A++ AGL Servants like Benienma or Summer Ushi or, as of LB4, Ashwatthama that may also arguably scale them too but that's both very iffy and, at least IMHO, they wouldn't reach it since they're still around Enkidu's Mach 587 speed so the most they'd get is an at least MHS I imagine.

...Anyways that's enough of talking long from me. So far as I and Ever talked on this, it would at most just scale to Achilles and no one else. Ofc, that's assuming if we actually don't count it as calc stacking or, if not, we look at where Achilles would have been at 100% his full speed which very likely can be MHS+. Hence the thread I made here.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

It really shoudn't be calc stacking imo as its essentially a multiplier for his speed, something we have no problems granting to other characters. Of the top of my head I know we consider Gin's Buto Renjin mach 1000 as it was stated to be double the normal expansion/retraction speed of 500. I don't see any reason why we this would be denied when AP multipliers like Numeral are accepted.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Right. Yeah that's why I asked cuz off the chance someone may think this is calc stacking.

If this is does pass tho, we'll have to come up with how it'll be written since his page doesn't acknoledge his base speed before using Dromeus Komētēs which iirc is done when he steps his foot off his chariot. MHS with wounded heel can be said on his page I think for the 70% reduction loss, but for full speed idk what to make for it.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I think the 70% includes/is his DK since its mentioned as part of him losing his speed while the A+ is likely what the 30% is based on him keeping up with Atalanta. His reactions should be the same allround as DK is only said to be a speed boost and TT is faster than DK iirc.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

So would MHS+ be included with DK, and then we add the 30% as MHS after it. Just with all being the same reasonings but put separately for each rating?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

This isn't how calc stalking works. We are given a clear multiplier, after all.

As for explanation, i think "Massively Hypersonic+ (Even after being struck in the heel and losing 70% of his speed, was able too keep up with Atalanta in her Agrius Metamorphosis state), higher with Troias Tragōidia (reason here)" would be fine.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Hmm.

It would kinda look weird like that for the MHS+. I would probably add something like "Thus at 100% of his speed he should be this fast" or something.

It would especially look weird for someone unfamiliar with Fate.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I guess that could work.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So "Massively Hypersonic (Kept up with Atalanta in her Agrius Metamorphosis at 30%), Massively Hypersonic+ (Should be this fast at 100%), higher with Troias Tragōidia"?

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@Anon: Pretty much, tho I had MHS+ first and MHS for his weakened heel/30% speed speed state.

Edit: Just to expand on this again, I had in mind MHS+ first to show how fast he normally would be at 100%, which would reinforce him being the fastest of any Servant of any era...or some such like that (Even tho A++ AGL Servants are a thing now thanks to FGO and, to an extent, Fate/strange fake lol) while MHS would come after due to his wounded heel state. Almost like having a key but this is just on a single statistic. The way you put it seems to make more sense in its own way tho.

Otherwise that's pretty much (again) what I had in mind.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I can agree with that.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Thats fair, I just figured it was better to establish the base number the rest scales from. Also does anyone else think Achilles was 30% vs Chiron? Its not Nasu lore but if memory serves, in the actual myth Achilles was so fast due to him wearing the wings of Arces on his feet which is why he was called Podarces (fleet foot or smth). It would be a divine and thus negged by DAL, which makes more sense than Chiron going toe to toe with 100% Achilles when this version is slower than his horse form.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Makes sense.

IDK if he was or not during his fight with Chiron. I would imagine Diatrekhōn Astēr Lonkhē Dual Field could if it can even nullify his own immortality. Otherwise, Chiron must have had a really good clairvoyance + EoM combo and reflexes to keep up with Achilles if it didn't.

 

[AsianAntics]

Since Duel Field removes all Godly intervention + all NP's, Achilles' Diatrekhōn Astēr Lonkhē would most definitely be nullified, especially considering he already loses his immortality NP because of his RM. So yes, Chiron fought 30% speed Achilles in Duel Field, not 100% Achilles.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

DAL is what lets Achilles use Duel Field. I think you meant Dromeus Kometes (thing is that it was never stated to be divine).

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

What Anon said. And as I said earlier if DAL's Dual Field didn't include nulling DK then chances are, Achilles was fighting at 100% of his speed while Chiron has to rely on his Clairvoyance + Eye of Mind combo to not get blitzed and apparently even still, he barely avoids that or something.

 

[AsianAntics]

Yeah, my bad. I was busy farming quartz for Nobumama in the background and I confused the Greek names of his NP's.

DAL still seals NP's that take place in the RM. DAL relies on the two Servants inside the RM to decide on the rules to the fight. Achilles specifically points out that NPs will not work inside Duel Field so by extention, DK would be taken away as well, just as AA was.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Doing farming myself so it's fine.

Oh really? If that's truly the case, then yeah Achilles was only MHS when he fought Chiron rather than at his 100% with DK. That said, this isn't really that much of a huge change so unless there's any other discussion to this, I'll go and add this in a bit.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Where does it say it negs NPs? I only recall it negging luck and godly stuff. I'd argue that Chiron was facing 100% after rewatching the fight seeing as his Clair/EotMT combo let him tag and beat TT.

 

[AsianAntics]

For some reason, I can't upload screenshots so I'll just describe it for you.

If you go to the ********* episode here at 18:20, Chiron asks Achilles why he believes Chiron won't just use his NP to take out Achilles in the RM during their duel. Achilles confidently responds that since they are in his RM NP, he doesn't think Chiron can (Because one of DAL's abilities is NP sealing). It's the same on Netflix but when I took screenshots there, the image was blacked out and didn't look all that believable//looks like I could've forged it.

 

[AsianAntics]

I put it in a photo album here https://imgur.com/a/Cceu80m.