Er-gen verse, 1-A downgrade discussion.

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Previous thread.

We can't scale ot religions for tier, and Matt argues that "the in-series explanation for Essence isn't necessarily 1-A."

I agree with both to an extent. Though Esseence is still arguable, which is why this thread is a thing.


The arguments right now are:

For at least 1-B: Space is made out of "countless threads", and adding a thread to a circle made a circle into a sphere. Length, Height and Breath are all said to be a portion of what Space represents, and just few of its countless parts/forms.

For 1-A: The above mentioned space is "still under the Vast Expanse which is below Essence which is again under Daosource(step 4) which is again infinitely less domineering that Unknown Realms"

Against 1-B: Matt claims it's a stretch, but didn't seem to have gone into reasoning in depth yet.

Against 1-A: 1-B not being a thing makes 1-A impossible, so any argument against 1-B is against 1-A. As Quas said, trancsending 1-B could simply be a higher level of 1-B, and would need either transcending High 1-B or true platonic concepts to be proved 1-A.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Again:

Because there being or not being a "Dimensional" before "space", if I might, means jackshit.

It is made clear to be spatial plain out later on, so that argument just doesn't matter.


Anyhow, for an actual tier. I think it's at least 1-B. Maybe even 1-A. I'll also elaborate before anyone types something along the lines of "that's just your opinion, man"

TL;DR: Lenght, Width and Height are part of what is called "space" in this chapter. A single thread made a flat circle into a 3D sphere that was a world of it's own. There are "countless" threads. I.E. Tier 1.

• Meng Hao saw countless dimensions of space, all of them different sizes. Some were blurry, others were clear. They transformed into countless threads, threads that Meng Hao was very familiar with; every time he unleashed the Eighth Hex, these threads would appear, bind whoever was the target of the magic, and seal their cultivation base as well as their Nascent Divinity.

This alone doesn't mean anything tierwise. Emphasis on "this alone".

• "Length... is space.... "Height... is space.... "Breadth... is also space.... "Size, can also be an expression of space...."

Now this, this is what proves that the space referce to spatial dimensions. Lenght, height and width are what our spatial dimension is made out of. And size is an expression of it.

However, the most important part here is that spatial dimensions are equated to the word "space".

• Among the countless dimensional spaces, he saw that they could be described in terms of length, height, breadth, and overall size. And yet all of that seemed to be only a portion of what space was.

The last sentance clears up all the previous problems with the threads only making the three spatial dimension, and nothing above. Width, Lenght and Height are part of the "space" described here, but not all of it.

• "Space... is nothing more than countless threads, formed together into a pattern. The patterns formed by those threads... are space!"

So, there are countless threads that make up all of space. This would mean at least High 2-A, as there is more than the three spatial dimensions (plus temporal axis) in the space that is referenced here.

• "Within these threads are length, height, breadth, and size. They are limitless, and that is space.... They are flat, but actually...." He waved his right hand, causing a thread to stretch out from the circle, and then pass over him. In the blink of an eye, the circle of threads was no longer flat, but had transformed into... a sphere!

"With an additional thread, it is no longer a circle, but a sphere, like a world....

This is the part that proves 1-B. A single extra thread made a flat circle into a three Dimensional sphere. In-fact, the sphere is a "world" (something that the author, at least in AWE, refers to a place that is a place of it's own and not a part of the universe, and often has it's own, personal laws of reality).

And some might think that he only says it's just like a world, and isn' t the actual thing. But that's later confirmed to be an actual world:

• If that canvas was folded, the subsequent cracks that were created were dimensional rifts. Furthermore, if the canvas could be formed into a sphere, then that space would be... a world.

 

[Nepuko]

To refresh memories, here are some mods latest posts on the subject :

Ultima : "Now, saying Matt is "just in denial" is a tad uncalled for, there is no need to start acting all condescending and throwing jabs at people, I want this to be a civil discussion. This applies to both sides here.

Stuff in the 1-B range is now seeming a lot more believable with the additional context involving the "Dimensional Spaces" which the novel describes, especially since Length, Height and Breath are all said to be a portion of what Space represents, and just one of its countless descriptions.

I do agree that these two last scans are just referring to different universes, though."

 

[Nepuko]

Matt : " I think 1-B is REALLY reaching and needs a lot more evidence. Specially since dimensional spaces are used to refer to universes as well. "

Note from me : (btw dimensional spaces were never used to refer to universes, but here's this nonetheless)

 

[Nepuko]

Wokista : "Classic final exams making me take a while Issue with Dao stuff if we don't equate: Being said to be the source of all things, acting as a way and path, and being Yin and Yang on its own just isn't 1-A. It would be within the broader Taoist system, but ISSTH would need to copy over those parts.

It does seem sorta weird that we would take dimensions and such but not allow the eastern forms of whatever constitutes reality without directly copying the preexisting concept but I guess t is what it is."

 

[Nepuko]

Zaratthustra 1 : " And that one was still under the Vast Expanse which is below Essence which is again under Daosource(step 4) which is again infinitely less domineering that Unknown Realms. "


Zaratthustra 2 : https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3118655#365

 

[RatherClueless]

We should probably make a quick list of ALL quotes that prove

• Yes, they are dimensional
• Yes, there are an infinite amount of them
• Yes, Meng Hao is above them

Risci already gave a few of them, so that makes it easier, but we should probably structure it a bit better/give more evidence/make it more appealing to the eye/easier to read.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Gong to point out: I am arguing that space is only 1-B, not Dao, essence and all those above the concept of space.

TL;DR: Think of the Er Gen verse as a a computer. Natural Laws are the programming of the computer, Essence is the computer itself (The prgramming is part of the computer, but not all of it), and the strongest beings that transcend and all that are programmers (Outside of the computer, and capable of changing it with ease).

The essence of space is above space by nature, as in AWE the relation between a concept like space, or something like time is that the "framework" that constitutes them is merely part of the Essence.

Bai and Meng both apparently become "infinitely more domineering" and then some, so saying that being infinitly above something that is above 1-B spatial dimensions migh be 1-A. Not sure about that, 1-A isn't my speciality.

 

[Nepuko]

Gong to point out:
I am arguing that space is only 1-B, not Dao, essence and all those above the concept of space.

TL;DR: Think of the Er Gen verse as a a computer. Natural Laws are the programming of the computer, Essence is the computer itself (The prgramming is part of the computer, but not all of it), and the strongest beings that transcend and all that are programmers (Outside of the computer, and capable of changing it with ease).

The essence of space is above space by nature, as in AWE the relation between a concept like space, or something like time is that the "framework" that constitutes them is merely part of the Essence.

Bai and Meng both apparently become "infinitely more domineering" and then some, so saying that being infinitly above something that is above 1-B spatial dimensions migh be 1-A. Not sure about that, 1-A isn't my speciality.

The "countless/infite dimension" stuff seems 1-B to me, Zara, and apparently Ultima as well. And as Zara said, this stuff in under the Vast Expanse, which is under the 4th step, which is under the Unknown realms.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I only saw "countless" being used, which we rarely accept as genuinly infinite unless context makes is clear, which I doubt is applicable here.

It's just a really large amount.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Added simplified arguments in the OP, if there is a problem then please say it.

 

[Nepuko]

Added simplified arguments in the OP, if there is a problem then please say it.

You didn't add the reason of Ultima's posts, there being "dimensional spaces" mentioned (and those dimensional spaces are represented by those threads.). But nice, thanks.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I did add the second part of Ultima's reasoning. Left out the "dimensional space" part so that no-one else can argue against that while ignoring everything else.

 

[RatherClueless]

I only saw "countless" being used, which we rarely accept as genuinly infinite unless context makes is clear, which I doubt is applicable here.

It's just a really large amount.

Wasnt "limitless" also used?

 

[Nepuko]

I only saw "countless" being used, which we rarely accept as genuinly infinite unless context makes is clear, which I doubt is applicable here.

It's just a really large amount.

Wasnt "limitless" also used?

Yes, at least here :

"Within these threads are length, height, breadth, and size. They are limitless, and that is space.... They are flat, but actually...." He waved his right hand, causing a thread to stretch out from the circle, and then pass over him. In the blink of an eye, the circle of threads was no longer flat, but had transformed into... a sphere!

 

[Qawsedf234]

Countless and limitless are only 2-B/1-B as of now.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I think limitless was for how long the threads were, not the amount.

But still, infinitely transcending 1-B is still 1-A, right?

 

[Nepuko]

@Qwas Of course.

 

[RatherClueless]

@Qawsedf And what if you are above that all together? would that be enough to qualify for 1-A? (We never argued that that quote is above 1-B, so yeah)

 

[Nepuko]

I think limitless was for how long the threads were, not the amount.
But still, infinitely transcending 1-B is still 1-A, right?

If that stuff is accepted as 1-B, 1-A would naturally come in my opinion. Since that stuff is still under the Vast Expanse, which is under the 4th step, which is under the Unknown realms.

 

[Qawsedf234]

My only experience with this situation was Matt and some other mods saying that transcending something that is "Limitless/Countless" dimension wise is still 1-B. It has to be stated to be infinite or go one in infinity for it to count as High 1-B or 2-A. So presumably no. It would still be 1-B unless you prove that the Dao is a True Platonic concept.

 

[RatherClueless]

you mean 1-A? Also, I get why countless doesnt qualify as a synonym for infinite, but why not limitless?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I... don't get that at all.

Transcending a 1-B normally coul be still 1-B, since a single dimensional trmscension would make you infinitely above them, but that's not what is going on in here.

Here you transend the concept of spatial dimensions, period. Then you transcend somene that trancsends spatial dimension by an infinite amount.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I meant that being above something that is 1-B, without greater reasoning, is just a higher stage of 1-B. Its not High 1-B or 1-A without said greater reasoning. Being beyond dimensional concepts as mentioned before would presumably be evidence for 1-A. But I haven't been following the thread in-depth.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Such concepts, or forms, are completely transcendent of reality in every aspect. These forms are 1-A in nature, as they are beyond all spatial and temporal dimensional constructs and all of reality merely "participate" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.

This kind of seems to fit Essence to be honest.

All of 1-B spacial dimension, time, and everything else is part of Essence, but Essence is beyond them. It also is what created (and thus existed before of) everything.

 

[Nepuko]

Some quotes to help :

- "As his foot descended, the entire world seemed to superimpose upon itself. Then it split apart, as if he had walked into a different dimension, as if he were no longer within the Mountain and Sea Realm. "

[...]

"The entire starry sky shook, and the Outsider who had transformed into a sea of flames seethed as he once again bore down on Meng Hao. However, instead of slamming into Meng Hao, he passed right through him.

It was as if Meng Hao was now hovering, not in the Mountain and Sea Realm, but in some other dimensional space. The only thing which remained behind was a shadow, an image which everyone could see but not touch!"

- "Meng Hao saw countless dimensions of space, all of them different sizes. Some were blurry, others were clear. They transformed into countless threads, threads that Meng Hao was very familiar with; every time he unleashed the Eighth Hex, these threads would appear, bind whoever was the target of the magic, and seal their cultivation base as well as their Nascent Divinity."

- "Length... is space.... "Height... is space.... "Breadth... is also space.... "Size, can also be an expression of space...."

- "Among the countless dimensional spaces, he saw that they could be described in terms of length, height, breadth, and overall size. And yet all of that seemed to be only a portion of what space was. "

- "Space... is nothing more than countless threads, formed together into a pattern. The patterns formed by those threads... are space!"

- "Within these threads are length, height, breadth, and size. They are limitless, and that is space.... They are flat, but actually...." He waved his right hand, causing a thread to stretch out from the circle, and then pass over him. In the blink of an eye, the circle of threads was no longer flat, but had transformed into... a sphere!

- "With an additional thread, it is no longer a circle, but a sphere, like a world....

- "'If that canvas was folded, the subsequent cracks that were created were dimensional rifts. Furthermore, if the canvas could be formed into a sphere, then that space would be... a world."

Hopefully this help have a "bird's eyeview" on this, for a bit.


Edit : I see you already moved on a bit XD. Sad me.

 

[Nepuko]

I... don't get that at all.
Transcending a 1-B normally coul be still 1-B, since a single dimensional trmscension would make you infinitely above them, but that's not what is going on in here.

Here you transend the concept of spatial dimensions, period. Then you transcend somene that trancsends spatial dimension by an infinite amount.

Should you add @Qwas to those who thinks it's 1-B (at least in this infinite/countless dimensional space stuff)? Qawsedf234 what do you think?

 

[Ravenous4th]

I don't think I can hope for 1-A anymore but still...

Is there any evidence suggesting that Dao and Essence are platonic?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'll add it as a disagreement to 1-A.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I don't think I can hope for 1-A anymore but still...
Is there any evidence suggesting that Dao and Essence are platonic?

Such concepts, or forms, are completely transcendent of reality in every aspect. These forms are 1-A in nature, as they are beyond all spatial and temporal dimensional constructs and all of reality merely "participate" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.

This kind of seems to fit Essence to be honest.

All of 1-B spatial dimension, time, and everything else is part of Essence, but Essence is beyond them. It also is what created (and thus existed before of) everything.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think the thread stuff can be taken as 1-B. Personally I think the Dao stuff sounds 1-A, but I also don't know the series that well and the requirements for non-infinite dimensional 1-A is rather shaky as well.

 

[Nepuko]

I don't think I can hope for 1-A anymore but still...
Is there any evidence suggesting that Dao and Essence are platonic?

For me it's implied, (Dao being everything and anything, being the source of everything, creating everything while being outside of it, all space and time are contained in Essence, which is out of them and is a part of Dao, etc) and for every Er Gen reader if you ask them what's the ultimate Concept they'd tell you Dao, but sadly it seems that's not sufficient here. We could try again tho, but I'd prefer we kinda stick to the current subject.

Tho, this 1-B stuff being under the VE, and all of that under Essence (which is also out of them at the same time), and Daosource seemingly being above Essence could help maybe for the 1-A grade, but we don't know yet.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

To be honest, I could see a verse with a single Low 2-C universe with what perfectly fits true platonic concepts.

You know which verse that is? The real world.

Or, more specifically, the world as Plato thought of it, because Plato's definition of a concept was made in a way that fit our single universe world as far as I am aware.

 

[Nepuko]

I think the thread stuff can be taken as 1-B. Personally I think the Dao stuff sounds 1-A, but I also don't know the series that well and the requirements for non-infinite dimensional 1-A is rather shaky as well.

Thanks for your input, it's really helpful (and I won't lie, delightful as well). If you have time to spare, you might check this to at least see our side of Essence being 1-A (And essence if part of Dao) :

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Zaratthustra/Nop

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3118655#365

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3118655#276

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3118655#332

For now, maybe it'll help give you a rough idea. I'd like to hear what you think about those, later (is it enough, or not, etc)

Have a nice day

 

[Nepuko]

To be honest, I could see a verse with a single Low 2-C universe with what perfectly fits true platonic concepts.
You know which verse that is? The real world.

Or, more specifically, the world as Plato thought of it, because Plato's definition of a concept was made in a way that fit our single universe world as far as I am aware.

Btw please add "countless/limitless Dimensional Spaces" in the "for 1-B argument" please

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Lenght, width, etc. being part of it's countless forms is already mentioned. Limitless, as I said above, refers to each individual thread being limitless, not the amount of threads.

 

[Nepuko]

Lenght, width, etc. being part of it's countless forms is already mentioned. Limitless, as I said above, refers to each individual thread being limitless, not the amount of threads.

I'm not talking about the properties, but about putting "Dimensional Space" above. It won't do harm, and it'll be better to add that as there's no explanation on what those "threads" are in the first place. Put something like "the threads are dimensional spaces" or smthing.

"Originally, Meng Hao had assumed that the threads were natural laws of Heaven and Earth. But now that he could see them clearly, he understood that they... were definitely not natural or magical laws!

They were dimensional spaces!""


And also this :


- Against 1-A: 1-B not being a thing makes 1-A impossible, so any argument against 1-B is against 1-A. As Quas said, trancsending 1-B could simply be a higher level of 1-B, and would need either transcending High 1-B or true platonic concepts to be proved 1-A.

Better to change it to this :


- Against 1-A: 1-B not being a thing makes 1-A impossible, so any argument against 1-B is against 1-A. Or as Quas said, trancsending 1-B could simply be a higher level of 1-B, and would need either transcending High 1-B or true platonic concepts to be proved 1-A.

Please.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Dude.

Space is made out of "countless threads"

Length, Height and Breath are all said to be a portion of what Space represents

Someone would need to be really bad at the english language, or completely unawere of what higher dimensions are assumed to work like on this wiki.

The former can't be helped, the latter doesn't much matter, because they wouldn't understand 1-B as a tier regardless.

 

[Nepuko]

Dude.
Space is made out of "countless threads"

Length, Height and Breath are all said to be a portion of what Space represents

Someone would need to be really bad at the english language, or completely unawere of what higher dimensions are assumed to work like on this wiki.

The former can't be helped, the latter doesn't much matter, because they wouldn't understand 1-B as a tier regardless.

Please.

Edit : whatever..

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Why? There is no reason to, it's not actually called dimensional in the Chinese version, and anybody who can comment on tier 1 will understand.