Edo/Prime Hiruzen upgrade

[MinatoSparkle]

Edo/Prime Hiruzen should be High 7-A. Tobirama struggled to get through all the God Tree branches and save Naruto while Hiruzen did it effortlessly.

His Shuriken Shadow Clone jutsu also pressured Juubito enough to use his TSOs.

There's also evidence to suggest Edo Hiruzen is close to his prime level rather than his old level as his Shunshin is equal to Tobirama.

Who was able to blitz Mastered KCM Naruto with movement speed.

Proof that it's movement speed.

He only placed a mark on Minato after this instance, proving it wasn't teleportation.

MKCM Naruto>KCM Naruto>SM Naruto>SM Jiraiya>Base Jiraiya is all common knowledge. Base Jiraiya~Orochimaru~Old Hiruzen via these statements.

Edo Hiruzen~Tobirama (in movement speed)>MCKM Naruto's reaction speed>KCM Naruto>SM Naruto>SM Jiraiya>Base Jiraiya~Orochimaru~Old Hiruzen.

He also partially reacted to Juubito, not something someone on Orochimaru's level could ever dream of doing.

So with that in mind, there are multiple other statements showing Prime Hiruzen>Tobirama

Hiruzen's talent surpassed Tobirama from childhood, which is vague, but since it specifies talent, it's weird for it to refer only to Kid Hiruzen, since talent doesn't change as you grow older, it's something you're innately born with. So what this really means is likely that Hiruzen's talent allowed him to surpass Tobirama from childhood, which is supported by Hiruzen thinking he had the best chance to survive out of the group and considered himself the most accomplished of them.

There's also many statements (even more than the ones I'm showing) about Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage that was likely retconned for Hashirama, but there's no evidence of Hiruzen>Tobirama being contradicted.

And this interview confirms Hiruzen is equal to Minato and there's only a few alive shinobi stronger than him, in addition to the fact that he's stronger than SM Jiraiya cause he died shortly before this interview was conducted. https://mblintheu.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/masashi-kishimoto-interview-about-minato-march-2008/

And this statement is already on the profile but isn't accepted to be a straight up upgrade.

The justification is "however, it is not certain if this is referring to his physical strength, the strength of his Ninjutsu, or his overall intelligence, skill, and combat prowess as "The Professor". Additionally, it is not even certain which Kage this statement is referring to, making it very vague." But why is this nitpicking not present for any other statement about someone being stronger than another? There are plenty of examples of someone being called stronger than another that are taken at face value, like these.

And we know for sure that Ohnoki was reigning at the time this statement is referring to, and either the 3rd or 4th Raikage, and the 3rd Kazekage or Rasa, all of whom are High 7-A or 6-C in the 3rd Raikage's case.

So yeah, Edo and Prime Hiruzen should be High 7-A. He should also be Relativistic based on the Shunshin, blitzing god tree before Tobirama could react, and reacting to Juubito feats, but the speed rating can wait until the speed revisions I suppose.

This would also apply to Guruguru Yamato as they were almost evenly matched.

Which is consistent with the fact that he was pressuring/overpowering Tsunade, Ay, Ohnoki, Mei, and the entire shinobi alliance.

And Ohnoki confirmed they'd been using big attacks a bunch, so Guruguru withstood/countered High 7-A attacks from the Kage long enough to drain them.

They obviously weren't particularly drained at the start of the battle, given that they were all healed prior to arriving at the battlefield.

In conclusion, Edo and Prime Hiruzen should be High 7-A, Guruguru Yamato should be High 7-A, and they should both be Relativistic, but I'm willing to wait on that point.

 

[Nierre]

Following

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Following

Do you agree?

 

[Nierre]

Do you agree?

It makes sense to me, but I'd like to hear from more people

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It makes sense to me, but I'd like to hear from more people

Fair

 

[Damage3245]

do/Prime Hiruzen should be High 7-A. Tobirama struggled to get through all the God Tree branches and save Naruto while Hiruzen did it effortlessly.

Tobirama did not struggle. He was clearly slicing the branches just fine; there were just too many of them.

His Shuriken Shadow Clone jutsu also pressured Juubito enough to use his TSOs.

I don't see Juubito being pressured anywhere.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Tobirama did not struggle. He was clearly slicing the branches just fine; there were just too many of them.



I don't see Juubito being pressured anywhere.

Yeah, but his branches couldn't cut through all of them while Hiruzen cut through them all easily.

He had an explanation mark and opened his palm to use a TSO instead of just running through them with his own body.

What about all the rest?

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, but his branches couldn't cut through all of them while Hiruzen cut through them all easily.

I only see Hiruzen smashing the ones around Naruto; not all of the branches.

He had an explanation mark and opened his palm to use a TSO instead of just running through them with his own body.

Doesn't mean he felt threatened by them. We're not about to start scaling Hiruzen to Juubito just because Juubito blocked one of his attacks.

What about all the rest?

I'll get to the rest, provided nobody else debunks the OP.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I only see Hiruzen smashing the ones around Naruto; not all of the branches.



Doesn't mean he felt threatened by them. We're not about to start scaling Hiruzen to Juubito just because Juubito blocked one of his attacks.



I'll get to the rest, provided nobody else debunks the OP.

I mean Tobirama couldn't cut all the ones around Naruto.

Eh sure but it does imply Hiruzen is some level of a threat, not some Mid Kage level trash.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Do you really have to obnoxious with that oversized Emote?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Do you really have to obnoxious with that oversized Emote?

Fine, fine, I removed it. (Was just trying to inject some fun into this smh)

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Was just trying to inject some fun into this smh

Well it makes you seem to have a condescending attitude, especially with the whole:

Can't debunk what's correct.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Well it makes you seem to have a condescending attitude, especially with the whole:

Ok,

I mean Tobirama couldn't cut all the ones around Naruto.

Eh sure but it does imply Hiruzen is some level of a threat, not some Mid Kage level trash.

Happy now?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Edo/Prime Hiruzen should be High 7-A. Tobirama struggled to get through all the God Tree branches and save Naruto while Hiruzen did it effortlessly.

Like Damage said, this isn't a matter of Hiruzen's AP being greater, but rather a matter of range. There were simply too many branches for Tobirama to get through, and he was farther away from Naruto. Hiruzen was right next to him. In terms of AP, they both destroyed the branches just fine, so there's no meaningful comparison to gleam from this.

His Shuriken Shadow Clone jutsu also pressured Juubito enough to use his TSOs.

This is honestly pretty irrelevant. We both know this isn't enough to scale Hiruzen to Juubito. He doesn't even look the least bit concerned.

There's also evidence to suggest Edo Hiruzen is close to his prime level rather than his old level as his Shunshin is equal to Tobirama.

Who was able to blitz Mastered KCM Naruto with movement speed.

Proof that it's movement speed.

He only placed a mark on Minato after this instance, proving it wasn't teleportation.

MKCM Naruto>KCM Naruto>SM Naruto>SM Jiraiya>Base Jiraiya is all common knowledge. Base Jiraiya~Orochimaru~Old Hiruzen via these statements.

Edo Hiruzen~Tobirama (in movement speed)>MCKM Naruto's reaction speed>KCM Naruto>SM Naruto>SM Jiraiya>Base Jiraiya~Orochimaru~Old Hiruzen.

He also partially reacted to Juubito, not something someone on Orochimaru's level could ever dream of doing.

I'm not touching speed until the speed revisions. There's a lot wrong with the current speed ratings and scaling, so it's really not a good idea to do anything about them right now.

So with that in mind, there are multiple other statements showing Prime Hiruzen>Tobirama

Hiruzen's talent surpassed Tobirama from childhood, which is vague, but since it specifies talent, it's weird for it to refer only to Kid Hiruzen, since talent doesn't change as you grow older, it's something you're innately born with. So what this really means is likely that Hiruzen's talent allowed him to surpass Tobirama from childhood, which is supported by Hiruzen thinking he had the best chance to survive out of the group and considered himself the most accomplished of them.

The DB statement is clearly only referring to skill. It mentions talent, and then literally states that he mastered a lot of Ninjutsu and Genjutsu. There's nothing AP related here.

As for the second statement, there's no proof that Tobirama is included in that "bunch". To me it's clear that it's referring to the rest of his teammates. If he was stronger than Tobirama, why the hell would he let him go off to his death instead of going to support him against the Ginkaku and Kinkaku Squad? The context of that scene is clearly that Tobirama sacrificed himself to allow his students to escape with their lives.

There's also many statements (even more than the ones I'm showing) about Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage that was likely retconned for Hashirama, but there's no evidence of Hiruzen>Tobirama being contradicted.

"In the eyes of the people". Yeah, a totally objective claim right there.
Also, like, we don't partially use retconned statements as far as I know. It's either retconned, and thus not legitimate, or it's not.

Yeah, I mean same as above, really. We either consider Hiruzen above Hashirama thanks to these statements, or we don't use them at all. We can't pick and choose.

And this interview confirms Hiruzen is equal to Minato and there's only a few alive shinobi stronger than him, in addition to the fact that he's stronger than SM Jiraiya cause he died shortly before this interview was conducted. https://mblintheu.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/masashi-kishimoto-interview-about-minato-march-2008/

I'm not overly adverse to having Prime Hiruzen scaling to High 7-A, I even originally had him there in my sandbox, but later changed it because I was told it's not reliable enough. Old Hiruzen, edo or not, scaling there isn't something I support on the other hand.

And this statement is already on the profile but isn't accepted to be a straight up upgrade.

The justification is "however, it is not certain if this is referring to his physical strength, the strength of his Ninjutsu, or his overall intelligence, skill, and combat prowess as "The Professor". Additionally, it is not even certain which Kage this statement is referring to, making it very vague." But why is this nitpicking not present for any other statement about someone being stronger than another? There are plenty of examples of someone being called stronger than another that are taken at face value, like these.

And we know for sure that Ohnoki was reigning at the time this statement is referring to, and either the 3rd or 4th Raikage, and the 3rd Kazekage or Rasa, all of whom are High 7-A or 6-C in the 3rd Raikage's case.

Orochimaru and Kakashi both, of their own free will, admitting inferiority to another is NOT the same as a vague reputation based statement. (Though admittedly the Kakashi statement isn't quite as solid as the Orochimaru one, because in Kakashi's case he could be referring to Naruto's strength of character)

So yeah, Edo and Prime Hiruzen should be High 7-A. He should also be Relativistic based on the Shunshin, blitzing god tree before Tobirama could react, and reacting to Juubito feats, but the speed rating can wait until the speed revisions I suppose.

This would also apply to Guruguru Yamato as they were almost evenly matched.

Which is consistent with the fact that he was pressuring/overpowering Tsunade, Ay, Ohnoki, Mei, and the entire shinobi alliance.

And Ohnoki confirmed they'd been using big attacks a bunch, so Guruguru withstood/countered High 7-A attacks from the Kage long enough to drain them.

They obviously weren't particularly drained at the start of the battle, given that they were all healed prior to arriving at the battlefield.

Yeah, no.
The Kage were healed from near death, but there's no proof that they were back to full strength. And the other Alliance members are all either 7-B or Unknown anyway, so....

In conclusion, Edo and Prime Hiruzen should be High 7-A, Guruguru Yamato should be High 7-A, and they should both be Relativistic, but I'm willing to wait on that point.

Disagree with the AP upgrade, and speed will definitely have to wait. The fact that the Relativistic calc will most probably get removed, and with the future of the Sub-Rel rating uncertain, it's unwise to do any speed revisions until that whole mess is hashed out.

Anyway, I'm quite busy with college atm, so I probably won't be able to reply much today I'm afraid. My apologies. (I'll definitely be back later though, if the thread is still ongoing by then)

 

[LordTracer]

I completely agree with @UchihaSlayer96 here.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I completely agree with @UchihaSlayer96 here.

Same.

 

[KingTempest]

I completely agree with @UchihaSlayer96 here.

Same here

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Also, before I go. To add to this point...

Yeah, no.
The Kage were healed from near death, but there's no proof that they were back to full strength. And the other Alliance members are all either 7-B or Unknown anyway, so....

If Guruguru was truly comparable to the Kage at their peak, then how the hell can exhausted BASE Ay still easily shatter one of his Buddha's arms......?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Like Damage said, this isn't a matter of Hiruzen's AP being greater, but rather a matter of range. There were simply too many branches for Tobirama to get through, and he was farther away from Naruto. Hiruzen was right next to him. In terms of AP, they both destroyed the branches just fine, so there's no meaningful comparison to gleam from this.

But if he could Tobirama would've simply moved his mouth to cut the areas around Naruto, that he couldn't implies his jutsu took at least some effort to cut through the branches.

This is honestly pretty irrelevant. We both know this isn't enough to scale Hiruzen to Juubito. He doesn't even look the least bit concerned.

He had more of a reaction to Hiruzen's giant shuriken than Tobirama's initial explosions.

I'm not touching speed until the speed revisions. There's a lot wrong with the current speed ratings and scaling, so it's really not a good idea to do anything about them right now.

I know, just showing Edo Hiruzen is superior to Old Hiruzen by a large margin, heavily implying it's his prime self nerfed by Edo Tensei, not his old self.

The DB statement is clearly only referring to skill. It mentions talent, and then literally states that he mastered a lot of Ninjutsu and Genjutsu. There's nothing AP related here.

Ability with ninjutsu is AP related.

As for the second statement, there's no proof that Tobirama is included in that "bunch". To me it's clear that it's referring to the rest of his teammates. If he was stronger than Tobirama, why the hell would he let him go off to his death instead of going to support him against the Ginkaku and Kinkaku Squad? The context of that scene is clearly that Tobirama sacrificed himself to allow his students to escape with their lives.

Because it was implied even the whole squad teaming up wouldn't be able to beat Kinkaku and Ginkaku.

"In the eyes of the people". Yeah, a totally objective claim right there.
Also, like, we don't partially use retconned statements as far as I know. It's either retconned, and thus not legitimate, or it's not.

There's also the "Strongest Of All The Hokage" statement at the top of the second that doesn't say anything about how it's only in the eyes of the people. Besides, if he was thought of as "the most powerful of all time," that should be compared to other Kage too who are High 7-A.

And why not? I don't understand what the issue is with using unretconned parts of retconned statements. In that case, why use the interview about Minato being the strongest dead shinobi when that was also retconned for Hashirama?

Yeah, I mean same as above, really. We either consider Hiruzen above Hashirama thanks to these statements, or we don't use them at all. We can't pick and choose.

Visible confusion.

I'm not overly adverse to having Prime Hiruzen scaling to High 7-A, I even originally had him there in my sandbox, but later changed it because I was told it's not reliable enough. Old Hiruzen, edo or not, scaling their isn't something I support on the other hand.

Edo Hiruzen is Prime Hiruzen. Unless the feats he demonstrated as an Edo Tensei are things Orochimaru and Jiraiya can do, that has to be the reason.

Orochimaru and Kakashi both, of their own free will, admitting inferiority to another is NOT the same as a vague reputation based statement. (Though admittedly the Kakashi statement isn't quite as solid as the Orochimaru one, because in Kakashi's case he could be referring to Naruto's strength of character)

Hiruzen fought in wars, his reputation is based on pretty solid evidence.

Yeah, no.
The Kage were healed from near death, but there's no proof that they were back to full strength. And the other Alliance members are all either 7-B or Unknown anyway, so....

Idk, Tsunade seemed pretty good.

Tsunade took almost all the chakra from a PRIME Uzumaki, enough that she regained her Byakugo seal, and was able to fully heal Shikamaru which even Sakura couldn't do.

Disagree with the AP upgrade, and speed will definitely have to wait. The fact that the Relativistic calc will most probably get removed, and with the future of the Sub-Rel rating uncertain, it's unwise to do any speed revisions until that whole mess is hashed out.

k

Anyway, I'm quite busy with college atm, so I probably won't be able to reply much today I'm afraid. My apologies. (I'll definitely be back later though, if the thread is still ongoing by then)

It will, I'm too stubborn to give up so soon

Also, before I go. To add to this point...

If Guruguru was truly comparable to the Kage at their peak, then how the hell can exhausted BASE Ay still easily shatter one of his Buddha's arms......?

One hand isn't comparable to the whole statue, especially when it's using powerful jutsu. We've had this discussion already.

 

[Damage3245]

It will, I'm too stubborn to give up so soon

It won't be ongoing for much longer if there is a unanimous rejection of it.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It won't be ongoing for much longer if there is a unanimous rejection of it.

True, although this debate should reach a conclusion before it's closed. Minato being upgraded to High 7-A was pretty unanimously rejected at first but after everything reached its end a possibly High 7-A was reached.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Screw it, I got a few more minutes, so I'll try to get to this one too lol.

But if he could Tobirama would've simply moved his mouth to cut the areas around Naruto, that he couldn't implies his jutsu took at least some effort to cut through the branches.

Did you perhaps consider that Tobirama didn't have the necessary range with the technique? It's not like all people can freely cover large AOE with their Jutsu, regardless of their AP.

He had more of a reaction to Hiruzen's giant shuriken than Tobirama's initial explosions.

Bruh, we don't scale people for having their opponents make a reaction. It's silly.
And no, I'd say Obito has shown about the same level of reaction to Tobirama's attacks, which doesn't warrant scaling in both instances.

This is a bit misleading as well, because Obito didn't even notice the explosive tags on his arms. That was the whole point......

I know, just showing Edo Hiruzen is superior to Old Hiruzen by a large margin, heavily implying it's his prime self nerfed by Edo Tensei, not his old self.

Except it's not prime Hiruzen. It's very clearly Old Hiruzen.

Ability with ninjutsu is AP related.

Not always, no. This statement doesn't compare the power of their Jutsu. It just says that Hiruzen has more talent, and mastered a lot of techniques. That's it.

Because it was implied even the whole squad teaming up wouldn't be able to beat Kinkaku and Ginkaku.

Sure, but that doesn't change what I said about Hiruzen likely referring to the rest of the squad, not necessarily Tobirama. Hell, even Danzo says that Tobirama is the greatest Shinobi in the village in this very chapter.

Even if we take this statement as Hiruzen being > Tobirama, this is a MUCH younger Hiruzen. There is absolutely no reason for Old Hiruzen to scale to this.

There's also the "Strongest Of All The Hokage" statement at the top of the second that doesn't say anything about how it's only in the eyes of the people. Besides, if he was thought of as "the most powerful of all time," that should be compared to other Kage too who are High 7-A.

And why not? I don't understand what the issue is with using unretconned parts of retconned statements. In that case, why use the interview about Minato being the strongest dead shinobi when that was also retconned for Hashirama?

Visible confusion.

As you know, the Minato situation isn't exactly set in stone or anything....
People just wanted to get that thread over with, so they didn't get too pedantic with the Minato situation at the end.
But yeah, a statement is either legitimate or it isn't. We can't cherry pick parts that we like, and discard others.

Edo Hiruzen is Prime Hiruzen.

No he isn't.....
Edo Tensei revives people in the states that they were in at the time of their death (Such as Nagato being revived with his legs immobilized and with white hair). There are cases like Madara where the caster meddles with them and revives them close to their prime (as Kabuto noted), but that clearly wasn't done with Hiruzen. He was revived in the old state he died in.

Unless the feats he demonstrated as an Edo Tensei are things Orochimaru and Jiraiya can do, that has to be the reason.

I don't see any High 7-A feats demonstrated by Edo Hiruzen, so that's moot.

Hiruzen fought in wars, his reputation is based on pretty solid evidence.

Sure, but the version that fought in the wars isn't the same one that fought Orochimaru. Like we discussed before, Hiruzen deteriorated considerably with age.

Idk, Tsunade seemed pretty good.

Tsunade took almost all the chakra from a PRIME Uzumaki, enough that she regained her Byakugo seal, and was able to fully heal Shikamaru which even Sakura couldn't do.

"She seemed pretty good" is not proof that she was restored to her full power. Certainly not proof for the other Kage either.
Also, like, even Dan's chakra was enough to restore her Hundred Healings mark, and make her "seem pretty good", but that isn't proof that she was at a 100% either.

It will, I'm too stubborn to give up so soon

Yeah, well, we'll see I guess. If literally everyone rejects it, then it's rejected. Arguing in circles forever won't change that.

One hand isn't comparable to the whole statue, especially when it's using powerful jutsu. We've had this discussion already.

If you remember our discussion, you'll remember that I didn't exactly agree with you.
The fact of the matter is that an exhausted base Ay is shown to be more powerful than the statue. If the Kage were at full power, they would've just obliterated the whole thing with ease. What the hell can Guruguru do about a combined assault from V2 Ay, Byakugou Tsunade, Mei's large scale Ninjutsu, Gaara's sand, and Onoki's big AOE Jintons that can turn Madara's Mokuton and Susanoo to dust if just base Ay can damage the statue so easily? Guruguru being that strong is EXTREMELY suspect.

 

[Nierre]

Agree with Slayer fra

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Screw it, I got a few more minutes, so I'll try to get to this one too lol.

Did you perhaps consider that Tobirama didn't have the necessary range with the technique? It's not like all people can freely cover large AOE with their Jutsu, regardless of their AP.

Tobirama didn't say anything about how he didn't have enough range, just that there were too many.

Bruh, we don't scale people for having their opponents make a reaction. It's silly.
And no, I'd say Obito has shown about the same level of reaction to Tobirama's attacks, which doesn't warrant scaling in both instances.

And Tobirama's Tandem Paper Bombs scales above his regular AP, so yeah.

This is a bit misleading as well, because Obito didn't even notice the explosive tags on his arms. That was the whole point......

But after they exploded he still didn't have an explanation mark.

Except it's not prime Hiruzen. It's very clearly Old Hiruzen.

You said you won't touch speed scaling, but you need to to debunk my premise of Edo Hiruzen being in his prime.

Not always, no. This statement doesn't compare the power of their Jutsu. It just says that Hiruzen has more talent, and mastered a lot of techniques. That's it.

Seems pretty pedantic. Him having more talent doesn't make sense if he has less potential than Tobirama in terms of power.

Sure, but that doesn't change what I said about Hiruzen likely referring to the rest of the squad, not necessarily Tobirama. Hell, even Danzo says that Tobirama is the greatest Shinobi in the village in this very chapter.

That was your unsubstantiated opinion.

Danzo is biased towards Tobirama and against Hiruzen, and Tobirama even made note of this in the scan that you sent.

Even if we take this statement as Hiruzen being > Tobirama, this is a MUCH younger Hiruzen. There is absolutely no reason for Old Hiruzen to scale to this.

This was something I addressed in the OP.

As you know, the Minato situation isn't exactly set in stone or anything....

No, I didn't?

People just wanted to get that thread over with, so they didn't get too pedantic with the Minato situation at the end.
But yeah, a statement is either legitimate or it isn't. We can't sherry pick parts that we like, and discard others.

Can you show me a rule that states this?

And it's not about what I like and don't like, there are actually statements that contradict Hiruzen>Hashirama

If we only used evidence that has no contradictions, then half the scaling in the verse would be invalidated.

No he isn't.....
Edo Tensei revives people in the states that they were in at the time of their death (Such as Nagato being revived without his legs and with white hair). There are cases like Madara where the caster meddles with them and revives them close to their prime (as Kabuto noted), but that clearly wasn't done with Hiruzen. He was revived in the old state he died in.

Hashirama was a grandfather when he died, and Tobirama died even older than that, yet they were revived in their prime strength, with Hashirama still contended with an even stronger Madara (relative to himself) and Tobirama showing feats proving his speed superiority to the founders. Just like how Itachi was revived with his sickness removed, Hiruzen was revived with the fragility of his old self removed.

I don't see any High 7-A feats demonstrated by Edo Hiruzen, so that's moot.

Talking about the speed feats primarily as they're much more objective.

Sure, but the version that fought in the wars isn't the same one that fought Orochimaru. Like we discussed before, Hiruzen deteriorated considerably with age.

See above.

"She seemed pretty good" is not proof that she was restored to her full power. Certainly not proof for the other Kage either.
Also, like, even Dan's chakra was enough to restore her Hundred Healings mark, and make her "seem pretty good", but that isn't proof that she was at a 100% either.

Alright, but she still had a large portion of the chakra of an Uzumaki, who have chakra rivalling or even arguably surpassing that of the Senju.

Yeah, well, we'll see I guess. If literally everyone rejects it, then it's rejected. Arguing in circles forever won't change that.

It did in the other thread.

If you remember our discussion, you'll remember that I didn't exactly agree with you.
The fact of the matter is that an exhausted base Ay is shown to be more powerful than the statue. If the Kage were at full power, they would've just obliterated the whole thing with ease. What the hell can Guruguru do about a combined assault from V2 Ay, Byakugou Tsunade, Mei's large scale Ninjutsu, Gaara's sand, and Onoki's big AOE Jintons that can turn Madara's Mokuton and Susanoo to dust if just base Ay can damage the statue so easily? Guruguru being that strong is EXTREMELY suspect.

Yeah, shown to be more powerful...

The fact that Mei was knocked back and hurt despite taking a Humanoid Susanoo punch kinda proves my point.

And she was nearly as fatigued and wounded as in the Guruguru fight at this point.

It's actually implied that they did do what you suggested.

This can't be referring to the attacks they used in the Madara battle because he said "And we haven't had a chance to regroup," when they did, in fact, do just that after the Madara fight. As for what he can do in response to all of that, he can do this.

Plus, it's implied Guruguru's ninjutsu is stronger than his arms anyways.

He asks how they can counter that despite Base Ay individually being able to damage the arms.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I agree with Slayer

 

[MinatoSparkle]

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Dont Worry Hiruzen would clap Hashi's cheeks in an actual fight.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Dont Worry Hiruzen would clap Hashi's cheeks in an actual fight.

Haha

 

[EmilioRory10]

Unrelated but I find it weird how Hiruzen used the exact same styles as Guruguru against him instead of using the counters, why didn't he use fire style against the wind style, wind style against the lightning style, lightning style against earth style, earth style against water style and water style against fire style? Is he dumb?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Unrelated but I find it weird how Hiruzen used the exact same styles as Guruguru against him instead of using the counters, why didn't he use fire style against the wind style, wind style against the lightning style, lightning style against earth style, earth style against water style and water style against fire style? Is he dumb?

Think it's because it was too quick and so he moved instinctively instead of thinking it through.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Honestly, on second thought, I don't think I have an issue with Prime Hiruzen scaling to Possibly High 7-A , the man has a ridiculous amount of accolades and statements and literally zero anti feats.

However, I am against scaling Edo or old man Hiruzen to this.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Honestly, on second thought, I don't think I have an issue with Prime Hiruzen scaling to Possibly High 7-A , the man has a ridiculous amount of accolades and statements and literally zero anti feats.

However, I am against scaling Edo or old man Hiruzen to this.

Hey, I got one partial vote at least.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I guess prime Hiruzen scaling is fine.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Tobirama didn't say anything about how he didn't have enough range, just that there were too many.

And Tobirama's Tandem Paper Bombs scales above his regular AP, so yeah.

But after they exploded he still didn't have an explanation mark.

You said you won't touch speed scaling, but you need to to debunk my premise of Edo Hiruzen being in his prime.

Seems pretty pedantic. Him having more talent doesn't make sense if he has less potential than Tobirama in terms of power.

That was your unsubstantiated opinion.

Danzo is biased towards Tobirama and against Hiruzen, and Tobirama even made note of this in the scan that you sent.

This was something I addressed in the OP.

No, I didn't?

Can you show me a rule that states this?

And it's not about what I like and don't like, there are actually statements that contradict Hiruzen>Hashirama

If we only used evidence that has no contradictions, then half the scaling in the verse would be invalidated.

Hashirama was a grandfather when he died, and Tobirama died even older than that, yet they were revived in their prime strength, with Hashirama still contended with an even stronger Madara (relative to himself) and Tobirama showing feats proving his speed superiority to the founders. Just like how Itachi was revived with his sickness removed, Hiruzen was revived with the fragility of his old self removed.

Talking about the speed feats primarily as they're much more objective.

See above.

Alright, but she still had a large portion of the chakra of an Uzumaki, who have chakra rivalling or even arguably surpassing that of the Senju.

It did in the other thread.

Yeah, shown to be more powerful...

The fact that Mei was knocked back and hurt despite taking a Humanoid Susanoo punch kinda proves my point.

And she was nearly as fatigued and wounded as in the Guruguru fight at this point.

It's actually implied that they did do what you suggested.

This can't be referring to the attacks they used in the Madara battle because he said "And we haven't had a chance to regroup," when they did, in fact, do just that after the Madara fight. As for what he can do in response to all of that, he can do this.

Plus, it's implied Guruguru's ninjutsu is stronger than his arms anyways.

He asks how they can counter that despite Base Ay individually being able to damage the arms.

Bump

 

[RisingIons]

Edo/Prime Hiruzen should be High 7-A. Tobirama struggled to get through all the God Tree branches and save Naruto while Hiruzen did it effortlessly.
There's also evidence to suggest Edo Hiruzen is close to his prime level rather than his old level as his Shunshin is equal to Tobirama.

He also partially reacted to Juubito, not something someone on Orochimaru's level could ever dream of doing.

What's interesting about the first scan is that in the anime Hiruzen is the first one to arrive after Minato by at least a full second. The body language in the panel however shows Tobirama came second. Also I consider the Juubito feat a failure to react.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Tobirama didn't say anything about how he didn't have enough range, just that there were too many.

"Too many" = a range issue.
The fact that he can cut the individual branches easily, but can't get through all of them pretty much confirms this.
If Tobirama failed to cut through the branches, but Hiruzen could, then you'd have a point. But that's not the case.

And Tobirama's Tandem Paper Bombs scales above his regular AP, so yeah.

But after they exploded he still didn't have an explanation mark.

Sparkle, drop this point please. We never scale characters for making an exclamation mark lol.

You said you won't touch speed scaling, but you need to to debunk my premise of Edo Hiruzen being in his prime.

I'm trying to address any AP arguments I see, but I will not handle speed here.
Though, I mean, if Hiruzen has legit speed feats as an Edo, then he would scale to them. Same with AP feats. He'd be treated like Edo Itachi. But that does not mean that he's going to scale to his Prime Self. He'll just scale to whatever feats of his are accepted.

Seems pretty pedantic. Him having more talent doesn't make sense if he has less potential than Tobirama in terms of power.

How is me going with exactly what the statement says pedantic? And no, talent does not always translate to power. I'd argue that Itachi is far more talented than Hashirama (and many other characters stronger than him), yet it doesn't always translate to power. Same could be said for Minato. I'd say Minato and Itachi are probably more talented and skilled than the entire Otsutsuki clan combined, but that has nothing to do with power or AP scaling.

That was your unsubstantiated opinion.

Danzo is biased towards Tobirama and against Hiruzen, and Tobirama even made note of this in the scan that you sent.

Yours is just as unsubtantiated. There's zero proof that Old Hiruzen or Edo Hiruzen would scale to this version of Hiruzen, whether he's above Tobirama or not.

This was something I addressed in the OP.

Noooot really. Hiruzen having better speed feats doesn't mean he scales to his prime self, nor does it mean that they would translate to AP. It just means that he'd potentially have better feats to scale to, much like Itachi.

No, I didn't?

???????

Can you show me a rule that states this?

A rule that states that if a statement is false then it's false???
You just need common sense for that one. A statement being partially false means that it's unreliable.

And it's not about what I like and don't like, there are actually statements that contradict Hiruzen>Hashirama

The Madara statements wouldn't really debunk Hiruzen scaling because Madara never really fought Hiruzen in his prime. At the time that Hashirama and Madara fought, Hiruzen was likely a child still.
The Dan statement is legit though, I forgot about it.

If we only used evidence that has no contradictions, then half the scaling in the verse would be invalidated.

If part of the current scaling is based on invalid statements, then you're welcome to remove it in another CRT. If there's a problem, we try to amend it, not add to it.

Hashirama was a grandfather when he died, and Tobirama died even older than that, yet they were revived in their prime strength, with Hashirama still contended with an even stronger Madara (relative to himself) and Tobirama showing feats proving his speed superiority to the founders. Just like how Itachi was revived with his sickness removed, Hiruzen was revived with the fragility of his old self removed.

We don't actually know the state they were in when they died though. We don't know how they looked, or their physical condition. We do know, however, that Senju have longevity due to their strong chakra and life force, much like Uzumaki clansmen.

Talking about the speed feats primarily as they're much more objective.

See above.

Like I said above, speed will be handled later. If Hiruzen's feats are legit, then he'll definitely scale to them.

Alright, but she still had a large portion of the chakra of an Uzumaki, who have chakra rivalling or even arguably surpassing that of the Senju.

Sure, but that still means nothing unless you can prove that Karin had as much chakra as what Tsunade had before. And even then, that doesn't prove that the other Kage were at full power.

It did in the other thread.

Yeah, but not everyone was against Minato being upgraded then. I said if everyone rejects it, then it can't be helped.

Yeah, shown to be more powerful...

He was knocked over after shattering its arm, because he's tired as hell.

The fact that Mei was knocked back and hurt despite taking a Humanoid Susanoo punch kinda proves my point.

And she was nearly as fatigued and wounded as in the Guruguru fight at this point.

Sure, but there's no proof that the degree of fatigue is the same. In the Guruguru scan she says she's completely out of chakra.

It's actually implied that they did do what you suggested.

This can't be referring to the attacks they used in the Madara battle because he said "And we haven't had a chance to regroup," when they did, in fact, do just that after the Madara fight.

I'm not so sure. They were healed from near-death inducing injuries, then rushed to the battlefield right afterwards. I wouldn't say that they'd had time to fully recover their strength.

As for what he can do in response to all of that, he can do this.

Not really sure why you linked Hashirama's Budhha, lol....

But anyway, a 100 fatigued base Ay level arms won't really do much to the Kage at full power. And they certainly won't help against Jinton's matter manipulation.

Plus, it's implied Guruguru's ninjutsu is stronger than his arms anyways.

He asks how they can counter that despite Base Ay individually being able to damage the arms.

Sure, the Jutsu would be stronger I guess, especially in combination, but that really only makes them unquantifiably above a fatigued base Ay.


Anyway...............
I've been talking to @Shadowbokunohero in private, and we really have no issue with upgrading Prime Hiruzen to High 7-A+, at the very least as a possibly. He has way too many statements for us to simply ignore, and no real anti-feats. But I'll let him make that proposal when he gets off work. He's got a better grasp on it than I do.

 

[Damage3245]

A "possibly" is the most I'd consider, considering that he has no real feats. You say he has no anti-feats but that's only because that version of the characters has almost never been on-screen.

I don't even know why we should have a "Prime Hiruzen" key in all honesty.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

that version of the characters has almost never been on-screen.

Well, technically...

I don't even know why we should have a "Prime Hiruzen" key in all honesty.

That predates me joining the wiki, so idek lol.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Prime Hiruzen existed and has a ton of accolades and lore around him, it's heavily tied to his character, one of the key parts of his character during part 1 was that the Villains only got around doing what they were doing because he wasn't in his prime.

I don't see how it would be any different from how we have a key for Prime All Might. however, I should stress that it should be a "possibly" rating and never a fixed one. because the latter would be disingenuous for a character that has no on-screen presence while the former is a Judgment based on the information we have: it's for this same reason why I don't think any scaling should be done via Hiruzen either.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

What's interesting about the first scan is that in the anime Hiruzen is the first one to arrive after Minato by at least a full second. The body language in the panel however shows Tobirama came second. Also I consider the Juubito feat a failure to react.

Makes sense cause I think Hiruzen's faster than him.

"Too many" = a range issue.
The fact that he can cut the individual branches easily, but can't get through all of them pretty much confirms this.

But if there were zero branches in the path and just a few trapping Tobirama out of his range that wouldn't be "too many," it'd just be too far.

The Majestic Attire can easily get through individual Shinsyu Senju arms but it's not as strong as the entire construct.

If Tobirama failed to cut through the branches, but Hiruzen could, then you'd have a point. But that's not the case.

Eh

Sparkle, drop this point please. We never scale characters for making an exclamation mark lol.

Ok fiiiiine, twas a side point anyways lol

I'm trying to address any AP arguments I see, but I will not handle speed here.
Though, I mean, if Hiruzen has legit speed feats as an Edo, then he would scale to them. Same with AP feats. He'd be treated like Edo Itachi. But that does not mean that he's going to scale to his Prime Self. He'll just scale to whatever feats of his are accepted.

But I mean, if Edo Hiruzen scales significantly above his Old self, isn't the only logical explanation that he's in his prime powerwise?

How is me going with exactly what the statement says pedantic? And no, talent does not always translate to power. I'd argue that Itachi is far more talented than Hashirama (and many other characters stronger than him), yet it doesn't always translate to power. Same could be said for Minato. I'd say Minato and Itachi are probably more talented and skilled than the entire Otsutsuki clan combined, but that has nothing to do with power or AP scaling.

Itachi could become stronger than Hashirama if his talent reached its full potential. And Hiruzen did reach his full potential. And the Otsutsukis got special power ups completely outside of their potential so that doesn't work.

Yours is just as unsubtantiated. There's zero proof that Old Hiruzen or Edo Hiruzen would scale to this version of Hiruzen, whether he's above Tobirama or not.

I mean your assumption that Hiruzen being the strongest of the group doesn't include Tobirama.

Noooot really. Hiruzen having better speed feats doesn't mean he scales to his prime self, nor does it mean that they would translate to AP. It just means that he'd potentially have better feats to scale to, much like Itachi.

Eh

???????

I was not aware it wasn't set in stone.

A rule that states that if a statement is false then it's false???
You just need common sense for that one. A statement being partially false means that it's unreliable.

I wouldn't say that. Since Obito told partial lies in his story of Itachi, but that doesn't mean everything he said was false.

The Madara statements wouldn't really debunk Hiruzen scaling because Madara never really fought Hiruzen in his prime. At the time that Hashirama and Madara fought, Hiruzen was likely a child still.

He knows Prime Hiruzen through watching the world though.

The Dan statement is legit though, I forgot about it

So ya

If part of the current scaling is based on invalid statements, then you're welcome to remove it in another CRT. If there's a problem, we try to amend it, not add to it.

It's not a problem, there are just different metas for most characters. VSBW just tends to use the lowest meta for everyone and everything most of the time.

We don't actually know the state they were in when they died though. We don't know how they looked, or their physical condition. We do know, however, that Senju have longevity due to their strong chakra and life force, much like Uzumaki clansmen.

We know they were grandparent age though.

Having longevity doesn't mean old age didn't affect them.

Like I said above, speed will be handled later. If Hiruzen's feats are legit, then he'll definitely scale to them.

Sure, but that still means nothing unless you can prove that Karin had as much chakra as what Tsunade had before. And even then, that doesn't prove that the other Kage were at full power.

It can be reasonably deduced though. Karin had enough chakra to produce Buddha statue level chains even while drained. She clearly has a massive amount.

If Tsunade was at near full capacity she could heal the Kage fully too.

Yeah, but not everyone was against Minato being upgraded then. I said if everyone rejects it, then it can't be helped.

Mk

He was knocked over after shattering its arm, because he's tired as hell.

Still proves he's not stronger.

Sure, but there's no proof that the degree of fatigue is the same. In the Guruguru scan she says she's completely out of chakra.

Yeah but she'd been fighting prior while not as tired as she was when tanking the Susanoo punch.

I'm not so sure. They were healed from near-death inducing injuries, then rushed to the battlefield right afterwards. I wouldn't say that they'd had time to fully recover their strength.

Regroup: "reassemble or cause to reassemble into organized groups, typically after being attacked or defeated." It doesn't say anything about recovering to full strength.

Not really sure why you linked Hashirama's Budhha, lol....

Yamato's is literally the same but smaller.

But anyway, a 100 fatigued base Ay level arms won't really do much to the Kage at full power. And they certainly won't help against Jinton's matter manipulation.

Sure, the Jutsu would be stronger I guess, especially in combination, but that really only makes them unquantifiably above a fatigued base Ay.


Anyway...............
I've been talking to @Shadowbokunohero in private, and we really have no issue with upgrading Prime Hiruzen to High 7-A+, at the very least as a possibly. He has way too many statements for us to simply ignore, and no real anti-feats. But I'll let him make that proposal when he gets off work. He's got a better grasp on it than I do.

100x33 gigatons is Large Mountain level+. And he'll attack Ohnoki before he finishes his Jinton.

And Mei. And since the jutsu of the Buddha has no antifeats besides Edo Hiruzen who has no AP antifeats, scaling above The Five Kage isn't contradictory, and suported by Ohnoki's statement.

mk