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After this disaster that this CRT was, me and @Oleggator talked a lot and decided that the verse should be downgraded, but let's take step by step.
Low 1-C cosmology
Ok so, the cosmology doesn't qualify as Low 1-C anymore, mostly because of several factors contradicting it.
1) The Player at the end of Mother 3 interact with the characters normally. Which shouldn't make any sense if they were transcendent.
2) The Player never defeats Giygas with an attack. Just through prayers. Even Prayers from regular humans could damage Giygas, so if Giygas died, it was for his weakness to prayers, which were positive, not because of some superiority.
3) Low 1-C for Ness and Giygas would be some pretty big circular scaling anyway, as they scale to someone who's Low 1-C because Player sees them as fiction.
So yes, yeet that. In exchange, there are some options.
A) Cosmology remains 2-A due to this statement in the manga. It was counted as canon until now because of Itoi giving freedom to Itoh, the manga artist, about the choices he can do with the manga.
B) Cosmology gets dumped to "2-C, likely 2-B" as Porky has traveled across timelines for thousands years after the events of Mother 2, so both the tiers are valid enough to cover the vagueness of the situation.
I personally agree with B given that just giving liberty to another media isn't enough to include it to canon. Is like making Dragon Ball GT canon because Toriyama liked it, but Toriyama never said he'd include it in his work. Itoi in his interview didn't either, at best is another continuity which doesn't apply to the game one.
Truth of The Universe and The Player
Alright, this is quite what was needed from a long time, but I never accepted it.
The whole basis on ToTU existence is on this statement, where it says that Ness & Friends journey is pre-destined, and that Giygas' defeat was in the destiny as well. Issue is that the assumption on an entity warping the fate itself to make sure that Ness and friends will always win no matter the odds, is completely baseless and lacks an explicit statement. So yes, ToTU should be removed and any ability which is derived gets removed. The voice which talked at the Coffee scenes? Just Itoi itself. The lack of mentions of ToTU in Mother 3 also hurt its existence even more.
Player on the other hand does exist, however, given that without the Low 1-C stats they don't have much, they're barely quantifiable, so delete.
Dark Dragon
1st, that fanart is horrible. Best thing we can use is this as is the only appearance we have on it.
About P&A:
Canonically it got put to sleep forever from Magyspies, and Magyspies are the primary users of PSI in the Mother 3 universe. No reason why it should have those.
Type 4 has no reason to be there.
About the rest, I can reword the rest in something like this:
His AP shall be reworked to "2-A" or "2-C, likely 2-B" for obvious reasons, given that is able to reshape existence or destroy it, depending on who awakens it. Porky Minch, someone who has traveled through timelines for years, claimed that the Dragon would destroy everything, to add what it already has on its profile.
Ness
Ness strongest key would be "Low 2-C, possibly 2-A (or 2-C to 2-B)" as Ness, in order to achieve the power he needs to face Giygas, he needs to absorb the power of the Earth itself, which is, guess what, the Dragon itself in the Mother 3 universe. Is not a straight rating as the Earths in the Mother 1+2 and Mother 3 universes are not the same, but given those are still associated with Tier 2 levels of power, Ness is pretty much likely the same level of power as the Dragon. Not to mention that the power of the Earth is a pretty big deal in both games and nothing really contradicts this scaling at all.
A profile of Ness which would be updated is here.
Giygas
Giygas in the Sealed form gets back to Low 2-C, as even before the Unsealed form is stated to be able to destroy the universe. He can also attack across time, and spread his influence over multiple eras at once. He can't be only 3-A in this key as he only wanted to conquer the universe, and Buzz Buzz only said that he has set the existence to hell, not that it destroyed it despite describing it as an "universal cosmic destroyer". If he has destroyed the universe then, Buzz Buzz would have somehow survived the destruction of the universe, and that wouldn't make sense. Plus, from how Starman Jr. talks, Giygas seems more to have just conquered the universe and not destroyed it. Giygas becomes even stronger in sealed form as Porky tried to alter the prophecy to avoid Giygas' defeat, with Ness needing to absorb Magicant and the power of the Earth to be able to defeat him.
Giygas' Unsealed form upscales from both Ness' new tier for quite obvious reasons.
His AE1 also is misleading as it makes think that Giygas is the concept of evil, while he just dies without any effect on the universe, and in Mother the Dark Dragon makes clear what the effect of concept manip are on the universe.
He just was spreading evil, and he became said evil in this form. Still AE, but not conceptual.
TLDR
Low 1-C cosmology
Ok so, the cosmology doesn't qualify as Low 1-C anymore, mostly because of several factors contradicting it.
1) The Player at the end of Mother 3 interact with the characters normally. Which shouldn't make any sense if they were transcendent.
2) The Player never defeats Giygas with an attack. Just through prayers. Even Prayers from regular humans could damage Giygas, so if Giygas died, it was for his weakness to prayers, which were positive, not because of some superiority.
3) Low 1-C for Ness and Giygas would be some pretty big circular scaling anyway, as they scale to someone who's Low 1-C because Player sees them as fiction.
So yes, yeet that. In exchange, there are some options.
A) Cosmology remains 2-A due to this statement in the manga. It was counted as canon until now because of Itoi giving freedom to Itoh, the manga artist, about the choices he can do with the manga.
B) Cosmology gets dumped to "2-C, likely 2-B" as Porky has traveled across timelines for thousands years after the events of Mother 2, so both the tiers are valid enough to cover the vagueness of the situation.
I personally agree with B given that just giving liberty to another media isn't enough to include it to canon. Is like making Dragon Ball GT canon because Toriyama liked it, but Toriyama never said he'd include it in his work. Itoi in his interview didn't either, at best is another continuity which doesn't apply to the game one.
Truth of The Universe and The Player
Alright, this is quite what was needed from a long time, but I never accepted it.
The whole basis on ToTU existence is on this statement, where it says that Ness & Friends journey is pre-destined, and that Giygas' defeat was in the destiny as well. Issue is that the assumption on an entity warping the fate itself to make sure that Ness and friends will always win no matter the odds, is completely baseless and lacks an explicit statement. So yes, ToTU should be removed and any ability which is derived gets removed. The voice which talked at the Coffee scenes? Just Itoi itself. The lack of mentions of ToTU in Mother 3 also hurt its existence even more.
Player on the other hand does exist, however, given that without the Low 1-C stats they don't have much, they're barely quantifiable, so delete.
Dark Dragon
1st, that fanart is horrible. Best thing we can use is this as is the only appearance we have on it.
About P&A:
Canonically it got put to sleep forever from Magyspies, and Magyspies are the primary users of PSI in the Mother 3 universe. No reason why it should have those.
Type 4 has no reason to be there.
About the rest, I can reword the rest in something like this:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Immortality (Type 1), Large Size (Type 4: Big as the whole of the Nowhere Islands), Self-Sustenance (Types 1 and 2: Implied to be able to sleep under the Nowhere Islands for all eternity, making it unbound from the regular needs), Void Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Higher Dimensional Manipulation and Reality Warping (Able to entirely reshape existence, including time, when it awakens. If someone with a good heart awakens the Dragon, all the evil will purged away, and life will shine even more. Otherwise if someone evil or without a heart at all does, everything will be destroyed instead)
His AP shall be reworked to "2-A" or "2-C, likely 2-B" for obvious reasons, given that is able to reshape existence or destroy it, depending on who awakens it. Porky Minch, someone who has traveled through timelines for years, claimed that the Dragon would destroy everything, to add what it already has on its profile.
Ness
Ness strongest key would be "Low 2-C, possibly 2-A (or 2-C to 2-B)" as Ness, in order to achieve the power he needs to face Giygas, he needs to absorb the power of the Earth itself, which is, guess what, the Dragon itself in the Mother 3 universe. Is not a straight rating as the Earths in the Mother 1+2 and Mother 3 universes are not the same, but given those are still associated with Tier 2 levels of power, Ness is pretty much likely the same level of power as the Dragon. Not to mention that the power of the Earth is a pretty big deal in both games and nothing really contradicts this scaling at all.
A profile of Ness which would be updated is here.
Ness' Omnipresence is actually still a valid argument.
The whole point of Ness’ journey is to go to 8 locations on the Earth in order to unite it with his own power, drawing out all of his power. And it was actually specified the purpose of it, as Ness needs to do so in order to become one with the universe, as otherwise he won’t be able to defeat Giygas. After collecting all the 8 melodies, Ness is able to reach his Magicant after getting a vision of himself as a baby. Magicant is basically a realm created in his mind, which was created from getting the 8 melodies in his Sound Stone. After getting through the Sea of Eden, which is literally said to be filled with the Ultimate Intelligence. Ness is able to get at the center of the Sea of Eden after defeating his own nightmare, and from here he hears his own voice which tells him that Giygas will destroy everything in the universe, if not from a boy called Ness, which is the voice itself, Ness then starts to absorb the power of the land, and even Magicant itself, given that it disappeared after this process, and then said voice also tells him to go to Saturn Valley as the next thing to do.
Another thing that points on Magicant being such is Ness literally needing to get the 8 melodies to create it as one of the steps to defeat Giygas. If Magicant was just an irrelevant dream, this wouldn’t make sense, as all the game prior to this was focused on getting said melodies.
As you could see, Ness absorbed the power of the land, which was used to create Magicant, and after absorbing it, Magicant was no more as well, meaning that the power of the Earth is Low 2-C given it was used to create Magicant in Ness’ case (as the spots were described also as only of Ness, which is even proven from when he enters in said spots, as he gets memories of his own life, like in 1:24, 6:53, 12:16 and 26:19).
Passing to Ness becoming an universe, this can be explained fairly easily.
Ness was “sleeping” the whole time, meaning that everything involving this process was his consciousness, as Magicant is basically a place to explore the owner’s mind in short. After absorbing the Earth’s power, Ness was later able to expand his powers and become massively stronger than the rest of the cast even statistics wise. So it is safe to say that Ness’ mind was actually powered from all of this (PSI means literally Psychic Powers basically).
This also explains what was talking to Ness. His true self (with Legends of Localization even interpreting it as a Meta-Ness). Ness knowing what happening next and what he should do is explained from him getting the Ultimate Intelligence as already said.
“Why does he need to time travel with a physical body then?” Well, while his mind indeed became the universe, he still needs a physical body to directly interact with the others in a "direct way". We have similar examples with Touhou Gods and Madoka Kaname, who never actually use their abstract selves to fight or interact with stuff in the verse, but just the physical forms. Ness is no different, and his statement is quite explicit as well. The fact that Magicant is a whole realm which is separated from the main universe (as shown from Mother 1 where Magicant is a whole place where you need a portal to access it, is described as a place of immeasurable area with Breadcrumps being unable to bring back there, which is compared to the "real world" in the Mother 1 Encyclopedia and you can buy real items in both games, meaning is an actual place outside of the universe, so the whole Ness' transformation is quite literal.
Time Travel mainly comes from him being implied to bring back the souls from the past to the present after their robotic bodies got destroyed. Andonuts was even unsure of them being able to come back, so it can't really be attributed to anyone else. This applies only on Souls, btw, is obvious it can't be applied to physical bodies nor is combat applicable anyways.
Rest explains from itself.
The whole point of Ness’ journey is to go to 8 locations on the Earth in order to unite it with his own power, drawing out all of his power. And it was actually specified the purpose of it, as Ness needs to do so in order to become one with the universe, as otherwise he won’t be able to defeat Giygas. After collecting all the 8 melodies, Ness is able to reach his Magicant after getting a vision of himself as a baby. Magicant is basically a realm created in his mind, which was created from getting the 8 melodies in his Sound Stone. After getting through the Sea of Eden, which is literally said to be filled with the Ultimate Intelligence. Ness is able to get at the center of the Sea of Eden after defeating his own nightmare, and from here he hears his own voice which tells him that Giygas will destroy everything in the universe, if not from a boy called Ness, which is the voice itself, Ness then starts to absorb the power of the land, and even Magicant itself, given that it disappeared after this process, and then said voice also tells him to go to Saturn Valley as the next thing to do.
Another thing that points on Magicant being such is Ness literally needing to get the 8 melodies to create it as one of the steps to defeat Giygas. If Magicant was just an irrelevant dream, this wouldn’t make sense, as all the game prior to this was focused on getting said melodies.
As you could see, Ness absorbed the power of the land, which was used to create Magicant, and after absorbing it, Magicant was no more as well, meaning that the power of the Earth is Low 2-C given it was used to create Magicant in Ness’ case (as the spots were described also as only of Ness, which is even proven from when he enters in said spots, as he gets memories of his own life, like in 1:24, 6:53, 12:16 and 26:19).
Passing to Ness becoming an universe, this can be explained fairly easily.
Ness was “sleeping” the whole time, meaning that everything involving this process was his consciousness, as Magicant is basically a place to explore the owner’s mind in short. After absorbing the Earth’s power, Ness was later able to expand his powers and become massively stronger than the rest of the cast even statistics wise. So it is safe to say that Ness’ mind was actually powered from all of this (PSI means literally Psychic Powers basically).
This also explains what was talking to Ness. His true self (with Legends of Localization even interpreting it as a Meta-Ness). Ness knowing what happening next and what he should do is explained from him getting the Ultimate Intelligence as already said.
“Why does he need to time travel with a physical body then?” Well, while his mind indeed became the universe, he still needs a physical body to directly interact with the others in a "direct way". We have similar examples with Touhou Gods and Madoka Kaname, who never actually use their abstract selves to fight or interact with stuff in the verse, but just the physical forms. Ness is no different, and his statement is quite explicit as well. The fact that Magicant is a whole realm which is separated from the main universe (as shown from Mother 1 where Magicant is a whole place where you need a portal to access it, is described as a place of immeasurable area with Breadcrumps being unable to bring back there, which is compared to the "real world" in the Mother 1 Encyclopedia and you can buy real items in both games, meaning is an actual place outside of the universe, so the whole Ness' transformation is quite literal.
Time Travel mainly comes from him being implied to bring back the souls from the past to the present after their robotic bodies got destroyed. Andonuts was even unsure of them being able to come back, so it can't really be attributed to anyone else. This applies only on Souls, btw, is obvious it can't be applied to physical bodies nor is combat applicable anyways.
Rest explains from itself.
Giygas
Giygas in the Sealed form gets back to Low 2-C, as even before the Unsealed form is stated to be able to destroy the universe. He can also attack across time, and spread his influence over multiple eras at once. He can't be only 3-A in this key as he only wanted to conquer the universe, and Buzz Buzz only said that he has set the existence to hell, not that it destroyed it despite describing it as an "universal cosmic destroyer". If he has destroyed the universe then, Buzz Buzz would have somehow survived the destruction of the universe, and that wouldn't make sense. Plus, from how Starman Jr. talks, Giygas seems more to have just conquered the universe and not destroyed it. Giygas becomes even stronger in sealed form as Porky tried to alter the prophecy to avoid Giygas' defeat, with Ness needing to absorb Magicant and the power of the Earth to be able to defeat him.
Giygas' Unsealed form upscales from both Ness' new tier for quite obvious reasons.
His AE1 also is misleading as it makes think that Giygas is the concept of evil, while he just dies without any effect on the universe, and in Mother the Dark Dragon makes clear what the effect of concept manip are on the universe.
He just was spreading evil, and he became said evil in this form. Still AE, but not conceptual.
TLDR
- Cosmology: Low 1-C > 2-C to 2-B or just 2-A
- ToTU and Player gets deleted
- Dark Dragon: Low 1-C > 2-C to 2-B or just 2-A
- Sealed Giygas: Low 1-C > Low 2-C
- Ness/Unsealed Giygas: Low 1-C > Low 2-C, possibly 2-C to 2-B or just Low 2-C, possibly 2-A
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