DxD Cast Stat Revision 1

[MasqueTLDF]

Hey everyone, back with another CRT. (<-Revision's right there.) This time, we'll be covering various cast members for DxD. AP, Durability, and Striking Strength are all getting revised in this CRT for the characters mentioned.

Spoiler: References

To make things easier, here's the accepted scaling info that's relevant. Feel free to read through these for sources, images, or better explanations.

DxD Issei AP Revision 1

Hey, sorry for the wait guys. I'm here remaking another CRT, this time, we'll only be covering AP. I'll briefly explain the reasoning for the tiers in this post but for more detailed explanations, sources, and images, go here. (The only necessary part for this thread is the beginning, up to...

vsbattles.com

DxD Issei AP Revision 2

Hey, back again with another CRT, this time covering the Volume 2-4 Key of Issei's new profile sandbox. Again, we'll only be covering AP. I'll briefly explain the reasoning for the tiers in this post but for more detailed explanations, sources, and images, go here. (The only necessary part for...

vsbattles.com

DxD Issei AP Revision 3

Hey, back again with another CRT, this time covering the Volume 5-15 Key of Issei's new profile sandbox. Again, we'll only be covering AP. I'll briefly explain the reasoning for the tiers in this post but for more detailed explanations, sources, and images, go here. (The only necessary part for...

vsbattles.com

DxD Issei AP Revision 4

Hey, back again with another CRT, this time covering the Volume 16-Current Key of Issei's new profile sandbox. I'll briefly explain the reasoning for the tiers in this post but for more detailed explanations, sources, and images, go here. (The only necessary part for this thread is the Volume...

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Proving the consistency of Issei Hyoudou's Boost multiplier

vsbattles.fandom.com

Characters being revised this time.
Rias Gremory
Genshirou Saji
Grendel
Kokabiel
Azazel
Sairaorg Bael
Ddraig
Albion
Ophis

Spoiler: When I'll apply these updates.

When the rest of the threads are done.

Agree: Dragongod224, TotalMasterInfinity
Neutral:
Disagree: TotalMasterInfinity (VP Saji, Azazel)

 

[Dragongod224]

Agree

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Agree: Rias Gremory, Sairaorg Bael, Genshirou Saji(Bases and BxB), Kokabiel, Grendel, Ddraig, Albion, Ophis.
Disagree: Azazel, Genshirou Saji(Vitra Promotion)

Reasons for Disagree
As I said before, I think the current scales of those characters are fine. That is, Azazel Base scaling to Grendel and
Vritra Promotion being half the power of Grendel.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Disagree: Azazel, Genshirou Saji(Vitra Promotion)

Reasons for Disagree
As I said before, I think the current scales of those characters are fine. That is, Azazel Base scaling to Grendel and
Vritra Promotion being half the power of Grendel.

Could you explain further what you mean so I could provide a better counter argument?

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Vritra Promotion.
as I said in the main thread.
Vritra Promotion scales to Yasaka who as a Daiyoukai is stronger than Yokais like Ura and Ibaraki Douji who together were able to deflect an attack from Rossweise who is able to damage Grendel despite his Enhanced Magic Resistance.

so she would scale to half of Grendel's power.

The reason I don't agree with what is proposed is because it places Yasaka, a Daiyoukai, as inferior to 2 No Daiyoukai.

Azazel
My arguments are the same as I said here.
But to sum up, it's clear to me that the statement after Azazel Base's attack makes it clear that that damage to Grendel, the fact that Grendel like all Evil Dragons is so damn tenacious as to stand and smile despite that doesn't take away from Azazel's merit.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I'll form a brief argument anyway, Base Azazel can't be relative to Grendel because if he was, he'd be comparable to Special Class Characters like DxD Issei when he used BxB which is obviously not the case. BxB Azazel is Maou Class (level of the current Maou). And if you intend to bring up the statement of Azazel "damaging Grendel', I'd add the context that the statement was referring to the damage the group did to Grendel, and was only made after Azazel attacked because he was part of the group.

While I say that, arrows made from many attributes start to pierce through him.

If I follow where it came from with my eyes, I witness Rossweisse-san who has many magic-circles activated in the air.

—But she can’t inflict that much damage even with these magical attacks.
“Even the different sort of attributes don’t show any effect. ……No matter how much resistance Dragon’s scales have towards magic, this is too abnormal. He must have received an enhancement against magic on top of his original resistance.”

It must be like what Rossweisse-san said. This guy’s scales are too hard!

(Nothing to imply that Rossweisse would be able to damage him if he didn't have increased magic res, unlike what her profile claims.)

The blades of Demonic Emperor Sword Gram and Ex-Durandal get covered with insane aura!

The two of them swing down their swords at the same time as Grendel breathes out his flame!

The wave created from the two legendary swords and a huge fireball created by the Evil Dragon hit each other head on! The moment the two attacks collide, the air vibrates which causes a violent shock that spreads throughout the field.

The wave made by those two takes out Grendel’s flame and envelops his huge body!

[Guoooooooooooooooooo!]

Grendel screams out! The two huge cannon-like attacks that came from Gram and Ex-Durandal! An opponent that is merely strong will go down with that single attack. But—the one we are facing right now isn’t an opponent that is merely strong.

After the attack caused by the wave ends, what appear in the aftermath is—Grendel who has smoke arising from his whole body.

—He’s standing up!

He has blue blood bursting out from all over his body, but he doesn’t show any sign of falling down and—.

Akeno-san’s voice reaches us so we take our distance from Grendel. The three thunder-and-light that has the shape of a Dragon flies towards Grendel and has all of his body electrified!

[Gagaagaagagagagagagagagagagagaga!]

Grendel gets paralysed! After the thunder-and-light ends, Grendel releases smoke from his mouth.

We the Occult Research Club are in shock after witnessing this!

“……He still stands even with that much damage……!”

“……He seems like he’s really enjoying it. So this Evil-Dragon will even accept death as he laughs huh……!”

“……No wonder people say you should avoid fighting them.”

Kiba, Xenovia, and Akeno-san stiffen their expressions at Grendel’s abnormal sense towards battles. This guy even enjoys his own death! I can’t keep up if we have a guy like this as our opponent!
“Then, eat this?”

Sensei creates a gigantic spear of light and releases it by aiming it towards Grendel’s stomach!

[Oho! Bring it on!]

Grendel tries to take it on upfront, but the spear of light scatters before it hits him and turns into many arrows of light which in turn attack him!

So many arrows hit Grendel’s stomach! Oh, a spear of light that can change its form! To be expected from the former Governor! He won’t simply shoot out a normal spear!

[Chi, such a cunning Fallen Angel!]

Grendel complains. He still has a fearless smile despite receiving so much damage to his body.

From there we exchange intense attack and defence against Grendel for a few minutes! All our attacks hit our opponent! But the battle where we can see no end to continues since he doesn’t back down. Even his powerful punches, kicks, and flames come at us—.

Statements denoting the group's combined attacks, nothing to imply Azazel was directly comparable to him by himself. Also, if anyone there was comparable to him, they'd be able to easily defeat him since he was heavily outnumbered.
The only time Azazel does damage Grendel is when he stabs him in the eye. (Obviously doesn't scale)

“Anyway, I’ll take one of your eyes.”

Sensei, who found an opening, throws his spear of light and it stabs deeply into Grendel’s left eye!

[Guo! Oooooooooooo!]

Grendel bursts out so much blue blood from one of his eyes! I assumed he would snap by having one of his eyes crushed, but he simply puts on a face filled with ecstasy.

Also, Dragon King is a varied class that spans from Ultimate-Class Devil (Vritra) to Special Class Devil Strength (Tiamat). So assuming that just because Grendel falls into the class that he's somewhere at the bottom when there's more evidence for him being near the upper tiers is kinda wrong. Also, Vritra isn't as strong as MVP Saji despite the statement from the LN. First of all, VP is literally Saji becoming Vritra so idk why he wouldn't scale to him. Second, most of the time when Dragon-type Sacred Gear users obtain BxB, they are compared to the sealed dragon, despite obviously not being as strong as them. (Issei, Azazel, Vali, I could show many examples if you want.) It just means that they have access to their abilities. (Prison Dragon Abilities enhanced, Boost no time limit, Divide no time limit, etc.) Saji would be the exception to the BxB<Dragon thing since he has VP and because of his multiple Sacred Gears.

And idk how you assumed VP is half of MVP.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

-It is made clear that Rosswisse is capable of inflicting damage to Grendel, only that said damage is minimal because her Magic Resistance that she has as a dragon was improved.
And as I said, Yasaka cannot be inferior to Ura and Ibaraki Douji.

-As I said, Grendel's tenacity does not take away from Azazel's feat, nor do I agree with the use of the Scale Mail multiplier for Azazel BxB since his BxB is not even a real Balance Breaker.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

-It is made clear that Rosswisse is capable of inflicting damage to Grendel, only that said damage is minimal because her Magic Resistance that she has as a dragon was improved.

It literally isn't tho.

And as I said, Yasaka cannot be inferior to Ura and Ibaraki Douji.

I'm not saying she is.

-As I said, Grendel's tenacity does not take away from Azazel's feat, nor do I agree with the use of the Scale Mail multiplier for Azazel BxB since his BxB is not even a real Balance Breaker.

Azazel doesn't even have a "feat", as I've shown, the statement applies to the total damage dealt by the group attacking Grendel. And Downfall Dragon Another Armor is as much a balance breaker as the Scale Mail is, the only difference is that because it's made from an artifical sacred gear, it breaks after use.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Base Azazel can't be relative to Grendel because if he was, he'd be comparable to Special Class Characters like DxD Issei when he used BxB which is obviously not the case

How does that track?

Also, Grendel isn’t even Maou-class. He’s in the Dragon King-class so he’s definitely weaker than Azazel’s Balance Breaker at least, which doesn’t seem to be reflected in the sandbox. BxB Azazel can easily overpower average Maou-class like Cattleya, whereas Grendel is relative to ultimate-class opponents. This one’s really easy to determine through CxC Issei and BxB Sairaorg, neither of whom were Maou-class and could compete with Grendel.

Nothing to imply that Rossweisse would be able to damage him if he didn't have increased magic res

That is actually what her comment implies. Not to mention, the statement is that she doesn’t inflict “much” damage (not that she couldn’t do any damage at all) and it’s partially attributed to his increased magic resistance.

Also, if anyone there was comparable to him,

Issei alone was comparable to him in strength when he used CxC.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

How does that track?

Grendel=Azazel (Large Planet Level) x 2^18 (BxB) = around 31 Quettatons (small star level)

Also, Grendel isn’t even Maou-class. He’s in the Dragon King-class so he’s definitely weaker than Azazel’s Balance Breaker at least

Classes for every species is different in terms of strength (Grim Reapers and Fallen Angels are a good example) and a character falling into one class of one species doesn't mean they don't fall into one class of another species. For example, Tannin (Dragon King Class) has Maou Class Strength. DxD Issei (Heavenly Dragon Class) has Special Class Strength. So Grendel being Dragon King Class doesn't mean he isn't also Maou class, and he's directly comparable to those who are. (CxC Issei/BxB Sairaorg) So, there's not really a definitive way to say that Grendel<BxB Azazel as you're suggestint, just that they're comparable.

, which doesn’t seem to be reflected in the sandbox. BxB Azazel can easily overpower average Maou-class like Cattleya, whereas Grendel is relative to ultimate-class opponents.

Which is why he scales similarly to other Maou Class Devils in the sandbox.

This one’s really easy to determine through CxC Issei and BxB Sairaorg, neither of whom were Maou-class and could compete with Grendel.

They were both Maou-Class at the time, CxC was only ultimate class when it was first obtained. Even IMT was Ultimate Class as stated by Cao Cao in Volume 9.

That is actually what her comment implies.

I disagree.

Not to mention, the statement is that she doesn’t inflict “much” damage (not that she couldn’t do any damage at all) and it’s partially attributed to his increased magic resistance.

"Ok, she did 0.00001% damage, wasn't a lot but it's still damage." Isn't really a valid reason to scale her to him, especially when all we're using is a single statement that's incredibly vague. We don't know how much damage she did, it wasn't portrayed as a significant amount, and we don't know the full extent of how much the magic res reduced the damage, assuming that Rossweisse scales to him would require a big leap in logic and a lot of assumptions which I don't think should be done.

Issei alone was comparable to him in strength when he used CxC.

Issei wasn't in CxC during the quotes that I had shown.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

For example, Tannin (Dragon King Class) has Maou Class Strength.

He’s Maou class with his maximum fire breath only.

DxD Issei (Heavenly Dragon Class) has Special Class Strength.

There’s no Special class strength as far as we know; it was only mentioned in a short chapter and was introduced by Ajuka because Issei and Vali had special battle achievements so Ultimate class felt too low.

Ajuka himself isn’t “Special class” and he’s stronger than Vali. It doesn’t mean anything for now.

So Grendel being Dragon King Class doesn't mean he isn't also Maou class

Correct, but he’s not Maou class. CxC was stated as Ultimate class and let’s look at their track record against Maou class opponents:

• CxC Issei was weaker than Euclid without using Divide to cover up
• CxC Issei was completely blitzed and overpowered by Diehauser. Worse, Diehauser wasn’t even taking him serious.
• BxB Sairaorg was also dominated by Bedeze, an average Maou class

Simply put, they had no feats or statements at that level.

The only time CxC was stated as Maou class was after the boost from Dragon Deification, which he mentioned in volume 22.

Then I might respond to the rest later.

 

[Dragongod224]

but he’s not Maou class. CxC was stated as Ultimate class and let’s look at their track record against Maou class opponents:

• CxC Issei was weaker than Euclid without using Divide to cover up
• CxC Issei was completely blitzed and overpowered by Diehauser. Worse, Diehauser wasn’t even taking him serious

About issei this two fight has disadvantage because first one can use boost and second block the boost and issei can't increases strength

 

[MasqueTLDF]

He’s Maou class with his maximum fire breath only.

When was that stated?

There’s no Special class strength as far as we know; it was only mentioned in a short chapter and was introduced by Ajuka because Issei and Vali had special battle achievements so Ultimate class felt too low.

Special Class is another term for Super/Transcendental Devils like Sirzechs, Ajuka, and Rizevim, it's been a thing for awhile.

Ajuka himself isn’t “Special class” and he’s stronger than Vali. It doesn’t mean anything for now.

"Serious Ajuka" is.

Correct, but he’s not Maou class.

He is.

CxC was stated as Ultimate class and let’s look at their track record against Maou class opponents:

Back in Volume 12, and as I've stated previously, he's far stronger now. His BxB is currently Ultimate Class.

• CxC Issei was weaker than Euclid without using Divide to cover up

He was damaging him without dividing in Volume 16, and he only uses divide in response to Euclid's Boosts to even the fight again.

The randomly shot Dragon Shots surround Euclid due to being reflected!

[Reflect] [Reflect][Reflect][Reflect][Reflect] [Reflect][Reflect]

My Dragon Shots starts to hit him due to the repetition of Reflect! My attacks have been dodged till just before, but he is definitely receiving damage if he is hit by them! It really does!

“Ku!”

He can’t withstand it so he stops the option of dodging and hitting them back, and instead he changes his tactics to using his own attack to eliminate my Dragon Shots.

Euclid puts his hand forward and increases his demonic-power.

[BoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoost!!]

The sound which signifies the increase of power echoes from the Replica Sacred Gear and it increases his aura even more where he shoots that out right away! Explosive amount of torrents of aura!

Even I won’t be safe if I get hit by that. —But I move my Wyverns and make them line up in a row front of me.

Euclid’s demonic-power engulfs my Wyverns. That instant.

[Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!]

• CxC Issei was completely blitzed and overpowered by Diehauser. Worse, Diehauser wasn’t even taking him serious.

Blitzing is unrelated to strength and that's only after Diehauser activated worthless to literally neg all of Issei's strength.

“—[Worthless]. That is my, the Belials’ ability. I do believe that you’ve heard of it…”

…I see, so that was [Worthless]. The power which could invalidate special abilities—. That’s how he was able to invalidate my Boost ability. Even so, I didn’t stop attacking! I then ramped up the intensity of my attacks. I madly attacked with punches and kicks in combination with each other, and unleashed potent shots of demonic energy, yet all of my attacks were still invalidated by the Champion with a small gesture. Even when I fired shots of demonic energy, they simply burst into nothingness in the palm of his hands. I enhanced by attacks with [Boost] and [Penetrate] as I continued to attack. But the attacks which had been strengthened with [Boost] were still invalidated by him. Even when I used the ability of [Penetrate], I was unable to hit him; despite counterattacking with [Penetrate] in a blind spot, I was unable to do anything effective. …If I was able to land a direct hit on him with [Penetrate], the damage would be transmitted to him directly! —But, I couldn’t land a hit on him! Every single one of my attacks had been evaded! The Champion’s evasive movements were akin to an elegant dance. Conversely, I was the only one who was sweating profusely in my armour. —The difference between us was simply too big. The opponent wasn’t using his full power at all! This was someone who was Maou-class! The absolute Champion! The top ranker in the Rating Games! If I could use Crimson Blaster or Longinus Smasher then it might be possible. But, I couldn’t even put a dent in the Champion’s confidence! Nevertheless, I didn’t stop attacking, and continued to face Emperor Belial. While avoiding my attacks as if they were a novice’s, he calmly said

• BxB Sairaorg was also dominated by Bedeze, an average Maou class

Bedeze caught him off guard several times and was using Sairaorg's own power against him via his "Hole" ability.

Bedeze had been strengthened with the [King] piece, but his physical combat skill was actually accumulated from combat experience. He had constantly built up his experience in top ranking matches. Bedeze suddenly raised his fighting level. This time, he added the use of [Holes] into his attacks. A [Hole] appeared behind Sairaorg, and blasts of demonic energy flew out from it. Sairaorg also detected it, and shifted sideways to dodge. But, as if following Bedeze’s expectations, another [Hole] appeared by Sairaorg’s foot. Bedeze’s hand extended out of it. He grabbed onto Sairaorg’s foot through the [Hole]. With his leg held down, Sairaorg was unable to evade, and the demonic energy that flew out of the [Hole] behind him closed in. The armour protecting his back crumbled, and blood trickled out. Bedeze’s onslaught with the use of [Holes] then began. The same as when he fought with Saji Genshirou just earlier, Sairaorg was unable to defend, let alone attack due to the existence of the [Holes], whereas Bedeze’s attacks were able to hit the young Great King. There was however, one thing that was different to Saji Genshirou. Not all of the demonic energy shots that came out of the [Holes] in his blind spot were able to hit Sairaorg. Whether it was the intuition of a beast or the accumulated experience that he had, Sairaorg was able to evade to some degree. —But, that was it. Bedeze’s attacks became more intense. Sairaorg intended to counterattack and thrust out his fist, but it was absorbed by a [Hole] which appeared in front of him, after which a [Hole] appeared beside his face; the fist which had been absorbed emerged out of another [Hole] and struck him squarely in the face.

Simply put, they had no feats or statements at that level.

Let me list a few.
1. Far Stronger than the Rias who was reaching Maou Class in V3.
2. Able to fight Ultimate Class (strength) opponents like Millicas in BxB (V13) So Issei being Maou Class in a form two stages higher with training is not absurd at all.
3. Grendel is far above Shalba, who was Maou Class. (V6)
4. Being Able to damage Euclid who is Maou-Class before transforming.

The only time CxC was stated as Maou class was after the boost from Dragon Deification, which he mentioned in volume 22.

Him being Maou Class then doesn't mean he wasn't previously.

 

[Dragongod224]

I think dxd character are likely getting stronger every volume so

I think we not think they are same level like before every volume they have different level of strength likely getting stronger each volume

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I think dxd character are likely getting stronger every volume so

I think we not think they are same level like before every volume they have different level of strength likely getting stronger each volume

I agree, they literally train during and between volumes.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Euclid BxB wasn't fighting seriously in Volume 16

At least there is someone who can see things as they are, in any case continuing with this discussion is a waste of time, I will not change my mind.

Azazel Base and Rossweisse scale to Grendel, and Vitra Promotion scales to half of Grendel's power.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Euclid BxB wasn't fighting seriously in Volume 16

Is there any evidence for this? And that doesn't negate the fight in Volume 17.

At least there is someone who can see things as they are, in any case continuing with this discussion is a waste of time, I will not change my mind.

No need to be rude, we're all friends here.

Azazel Base and Rossweisse scale to Grendel,

I disagree

and Vitra Promotion scales to half of Grendel's power.

Even if VP Saji was relative to Grendel, why would he scale to half of Grendel's power?

 

[Dragongod224]

Azazel Base

About azazel I think we can put him base azazel during grendel fight because we can think he trained during volume

 

[MasqueTLDF]

About azazel I think we can put him base azazel during grendel fight

Does Azazel specifically ever train?

 

[Dragongod224]

Does Azazel specifically ever train?

But azazel now about future danger he absolutely train during volumes because we know about ex volume where he can fight against future being

 

[MasqueTLDF]

But azazel now about future danger he absolutely train during volumes because we know about ex volume where he can fight against future being

He used The Typhon Counter Balance against Future Loki, and the UL aren't too notable so idk. If there's any evidence of Azazel training, it may make him scaling to Grendel a bit more believable.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Is there any evidence for this? And that doesn't negate the fight in Volume 17.

I'm not denying the battle from Volume 17 and anyway that battle was with a CxC Issei who had become so strong that he didn't need Boost and Solid Impact Booster to fight Grendel. We're not talking about Euclid power right now either.

Euclid smiles even under this situation. His armour starts to repair itself while emitting a red flash!

“Interesting. Interesting indeed. —This should be enough for a warm-up.”

The aura around Euclid increases again. And it isn’t an increase due to the replica Sacred Gear but due to the aura he originally has—.

That’s right. He did say he is equal to Grayfia-san. So the real fight starts from here huh……

Only at the end did Euclid decide to fight with all his power.

No need to be rude, we're all friends here.

I'm sorry if I sounded like that, But I realized that this would only lead to an endless argument from which nothing would be gained.

Even if VP Saji was relative to Grendel, why would he scale to half of Grendel's power?

Vritra Promotion is relative to Yasaka who is stronger than Ura and Ibaraki Douji.

Ura and Ibaraki Douji TOGETHER were able to counter an attack from Rossweisse. Therefore individually they both scale to half of Rossweisse's power, and Rossweise scales to Grendel.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Does Azazel specifically ever train?

I've always had that question, more specifically I've wondered if Angels and Fallen Angels can become stronger by training?

 

[Dragongod224]

He used The Typhon Counter Balance against Future Loki, and the UL aren't too notable so idk. If there's any evidence of Azazel training, it may make him scaling to Grendel a bit more believable.

But we also don't think like he not trained because we know about a azazel he absolutely do something to gain more power to fight against enemy like Indra , Hades and future being

 

[Dragongod224]

I've always had that question, more specifically I've wondered if Angels and Fallen Angels can become stronger by training?

He absolutely can like we saw many angles getting stronger

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I'm not denying the battle from Volume 17 and anyway that battle was with a CxC Issei who had become so strong that he didn't need Boost and Solid Impact Booster to fight Grendel.

Yeah, the Maou Class Issei.

Only at the end did Euclid decide to fight with all his power.

Yeah Eucs was def holding back then, but he'd still be stronger than his Maou Class Base since he was in BxB.

I'm sorry if I sounded like that, but I realized that this would only lead to an endless argument from which I would gain nothing.

Thanks for the apology but I still think that coming to an agreement would be for the best. (I don't want either of us to make thousands of CRTs going back and forth on if x is stronger than y. It'd be best if we were all on the same page.)

Vritra Promotion is relative to Yasaka who is stronger than Ura and Ibaraki Douji.

Ura and Ibaraki Douji TOGETHER were able to counter an attack from Rossweisse. Therefore individually they both scale to half of Rossweisse's power, and Rossweise scales to Grendel.

"For combination attacks, similar standards to multipliers apply. It should not be assumed that a combination attack performed by multiple characters has Attack Potency equal to the sum of the participating characters Attack Potency unless there is specific evidence for it."

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I've always had that question, more specifically I've wondered if Angels and Fallen Angels can become stronger by training?

Akeno, Irina, and Dulio can. (Likely Baraqiel too.)

 

[MasqueTLDF]

But we also don't think like he not trained because we know about a azazel he absolutely do something to gain more power to fight against enemy like Indra , Hades and future being

But we don't know for sure.

 

[Dragongod224]

But we don't know for sure.

Then we can do one thing put him possibly

 

[Dragongod224]

As we all know dxd character trained during volumes

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Then we can do one thing put him possibly

You know what, I'd actually be fine with adding a "Possibly" modifier to a Large Planet Level rating for Azazel. If anyone can find evidence that Azazel trained after Volume 3/4, then I'll add it no problem.
Though one other contention I have with Rossweisse (Akeno too) scaling to Grendel is 1. they'd be CxC Level even though CxC Issei was the strongest in the peerage at the time and 2. It wouldn't make sense for them to individually scale to Grendel when they needed a combo attack just to beat a weaker clone of Grendel.
And if we followed the logic MVP Saji>=Base Walburga>Rossweisse=Grendel, MVP Saji would be stronger than CxC Issei which we know for a fact isn't the case since Issei was winning in their fight.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

When was that stated?

Every time he’s stated to have a attack power on par with a Maou. It’s always in reference to his fire breath.

Special Class is another term for Super/Transcendental Devils like Sirzechs, Ajuka, and Rizevim, it's been a thing for awhile.

No? Ajuka created it in Shin DxD 4. It’s not the same thing, check the chapter again.

Back in Volume 12, and as I've stated previously, he's far stronger now. His BxB is currently Ultimate Class.

That’s what I said. CxC is Maouclass after Dragon Deification. Before that, he has no feats or statements on that level.

He was damaging him without dividing in Volume 16, and he only uses divide in response to Euclid's Boosts to even the fight again.

Euclid matched Crimson Blaster with a normal Dragon Shot and blocked Solid Impact without even wearing the Balance Breaker.

He was far above Issei and he lost due to Issei’s tricky use of the Dividing Wyverns and Rossweisse’s intervention.

Blitzing is unrelated to strength and that's only after Diehauser activated worthless to literally neg all of Issei's strength.

No, Diehauser only negates boosted strength. Regardless, he was far above Issei and Issei said he wouldn’t win even if he used Longinus Smasher.

That blitz was also one of the worst in the novel; he literally forced Issei to drink blood before he could even process it.

Bedeze caught him off guard several times and was using Sairaorg's own power against him via his "Hole" ability.

Bedeze boasted that he was Maou class after overwhelming Sairaorg. That doesn’t make any sense if Sairaorg was in the same class. He was simply much stronger.

Let me list a few.
1. Far Stronger than the Rias who was reaching Maou Class in V3.

1. Nothing to scale them to that Rias.
2. Kokabiel was stronger than Rias and he’s not Maou class.

2. Able to fight Ultimate Class (strength) opponents like Millicas in BxB (V13) So Issei being Maou Class in a form two stages higher with training is not absurd at all.

Millicas wasn’t Ultimate class. Where’s it stated?

3. Grendel is far above Shalba, who was Maou Class. (V6)

Nothing states Grendel is above Shalba with Ophis’ snake. Shalba was on par with the first generation Maou Beelzebub.

4. Being Able to damage Euclid who is Maou-Class before transforming.

Him being Maou Class then doesn't mean he wasn't previously.

If you’re saying Euclid scales to Grayfia based on his own boasts, that’s definitely false as Zero confirms he has always been inferior to Grayfia which contradicts his own claims.

 

[Dragongod224]

You know what, I'd actually be fine with adding a "Possibly" modifier to a Large Planet Level rating for Azazel. If anyone can find evidence that Azazel trained after Volume 3/4, then I'll add it no problem.
Though one other contention I have with Rossweisse (Akeno too) scaling to Grendel is 1. they'd be CxC Level even though CxC Issei was the strongest in the peerage at the time and 2. It wouldn't make sense for them to individually scale to Grendel when they needed a combo attack just to beat a weaker clone of Grendel.
And if we followed the logic MVP Saji>=Base Walburga>Rossweisse=Grendel, MVP Saji would be stronger than CxC Issei which we know for a fact isn't the case since Issei was winning in their fight.

Don't take this one seriously

But like think this fight is just a mistake because this fight make Many character more powerful than they are

 

[Dragongod224]

I want to say if we can determine how much a character stronger than other we could add likely, possibly stronger than other depend of statement

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Every time he’s stated to have a attack power on par with a Maou. It’s always in reference to his fire breath.

I checked V5, V7, and V10 and couldn't find that.

No? Ajuka created it in Shin DxD 4. It’s not the same thing, check the chapter again.

Every Special Class Devil is also a Super Devil and has comparable strength. (Rizevim is an obvious outlier.) DxD Issei = Ddraig = Albion/DxD Vali/Sirzechs (true form) = Serious Ajuka. (The New Super Devils are comparable as well.) And they're included in the same section on Ishibumi's blog. Special-Class is just the official term created since only recently have Super Devils become more common.

That’s what I said. CxC is Maouclass after Dragon Deification. Before that, he has no feats or statements on that level.

After V15, he does, as I've shown.

Euclid matched Crimson Blaster with a normal Dragon Shot and blocked Solid Impact without even wearing the Balance Breaker.

Ok bro

[BoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoost]

A large sound echoes from his replica Sacred Gear once again, and his demonic-power increases immediately !

“—Dragon Shot, was it?”

After he says that, he releases an aura that is a mixture of red and silver colour!

The two enormous auras collide high up in the sky of the castle town! A huge explosive sound echoes throughout the surrounding, and it causes a huge explosion up in the air!

After the cannon stops—what appears in front of me is Euclid who seems to be fine.

……My Crimson Blaster was nullified by being hit with an increased wave of demonic-power……!

[Solid Impact Booster!!!!]

I then went to hit Euclid with the thick right arm of mine!

The moment of impact—.

[BoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoost]

That sound echoes from Euclid’s replica Sacred Gear and his aura increases dramatically!

He was far above Issei and he lost due to Issei’s tricky use of the Dividing Wyverns and Rossweisse’s intervention.

He wasn't tho as I've shown.

No, Diehauser only negates boosted strength.

“—[Worthless]. That is my, the Belials’ ability. I do believe that you’ve heard of it…”

…I see, so that was [Worthless]. The power which could invalidate special abilities—. That’s how he was able to invalidate my Boost ability. Even so, I didn’t stop attacking! I then ramped up the intensity of my attacks. I madly attacked with punches and kicks in combination with each other, and unleashed potent shots of demonic energy, yet all of my attacks were still invalidated by the Champion with a small gesture.

Because his strength was increased by an ability, it was negated, not just the boosts but the effect of the armor itself. Just like Rizevim's Sacred Gear Canceller. (These two abilities are even compared.)

“Too bad♪. Since those powers have something to do with the Sacred Gears, it won’t work on me, you know? See-ya♪ So please support us from now on as we are going to cause a huge terror! And I will be sure to bring the legendary Evil Dragons next time as well!”

Dammit! So the attacks involved with a Sacred Gear really don’t work on him!

The instant that Vali was hit by that punch, his armour was shattered as a result of the Sacred Gear Canceller’s effect, and he suffered a direct hit to the abdomen.

Unlike, the SGC which completely destroys cause and effect of SG abilities. (Destroys the armor and negates the amp) Worthless only negates the effect. (Armor is still there but the strength increase is gone.)

I used the power of Boost to multiply the power of my fist, and thrust it upwards in at once! But, the fist which I had amplified the power of so much was easily evaded. It simply hit the air. I straightened my posture, and attempted to charge forwards again. The Champion touched my fist frontally! Suddenly, the amplified aura which had enveloped my fist instantly vanished! —What! …My power disappeared!? It was invalidated!? No, it was slightly different from Rizevim’s ability! If I was touched by that bastard, even my armour would disappear! Just then, it only felt as if the power of Boost on my fist had disappeared! Seeing this, the Champion said

“—[Worthless]. That is my, the Belials’ ability. I do believe that you’ve heard of it…”

Regardless, he was far above Issei and Issei said he wouldn’t win even if he used Longinus Smasher.

Yeah because of his hax and Longinus Smasher would just get negged like everything else.

Bedeze boasted that he was Maou class after overwhelming Sairaorg. That doesn’t make any sense if Sairaorg was in the same class. He was simply much stronger.

Him bragging and being cocky doesn't make Sairaorg suddenly not Maou class, I don't understand this logic.

1. Nothing to scale them to that Rias.

Considering that Issei is currently accepted as scaling above that value that Rias scales, I'd disagree, feel free to check the earlier CRT's if you're confused.

2. Kokabiel was stronger than Rias and he’s not Maou class.

He's comparable to the old Maou at the very least.

Millicas wasn’t Ultimate class. Where’s it stated?

Not everything in the series is directly stated, some things are implied. And I can explain for you if you'd like.
First, for Devils, their strength/potential is initially determined by the strength of their parents. (DxD 0 as an example.)
Those who inherit the blood of Maou have high potential and are Ultimate Class Devils (The guy Sirzechs fought in 0, Shalba, Katerea, Creusery, etc.)
Millicas diligently trains, his parents are far stronger than those of the aforementioned Ultimate Class Devils, and he has higher potential than all of them.
Devils like Rias (less potential/weaker parents) became a High Class Devil at a comparable age.

It was stated in the story, but in terms of talent Millicas-kun has the best potential by far in this series. Most likely by the time he becomes the same age as Ise and others, he would turn out into an incredible devil. What can I say since people around him are incredible people like his mom and dad, and Ise who would become his Uncle (Planned). So the environment he is living in is insane.

(Plus, he's a Super Devil in 30 Years.)
And the BxB Issei he fought was relative to Kuroka (Ultimate Class) 8 Volumes prior. (Only needing 1 Boost)

Nothing states Grendel is above Shalba with Ophis’ snake. Shalba was on par with the first generation Maou Beelzebub.

If Shalba in V6 is at most 100 times stronger than his V11 counterpart (Relative to CxC), then by virtue of 14 Boosts being a larger amp than 100x, Grendel would be stronger.

If you’re saying Euclid scales to Grayfia based on his own boasts, that’s definitely false as Zero confirms he has always been inferior to Grayfia which contradicts his own claims.

That statement from Zero is centuries before the statement in DxD Vol17 so idk why you'd think it wouldn't apply now, he's definitely wiser as a half millenia old man than he was as a little kid. And Issei fought Sirzechs before so he should know how strong he is. (Though he was holding back.)

 

[MasqueTLDF]

We can continue this discussion later tomorrow if you'd like. It's 12 am here and I gotta work tomorrow. Though, I'll call some staff over for their opinions before I hit the hay. Good night everyone and I hope you all get good rest.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

What would be needed besides the simple logic that if 2 people hit something in unison the target will be hit by the sum of their energies, it's not like Ura and Ibaraki Douji would have used a special attack or something, they literally just raised their clubs and hit Rossweisse's attack together.

Grendel's clones were being protected by Ladon's barrier which as we know can only be damaged by beings of CxC's level from Volume 17.

About Grendel's matter, I understand how you feel, I also had the same feelings when I was making the DxD Scale. But then I realized something, Grendel has always been known for having a toughness and high defenses and Evil Dragons in general are stupidly tenacious, being able to hold their own against the entire Gremory Group is more a merit for Grendel than a demerit for them.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I checked V5, V7, and V10 and couldn't find that.

Will try to check later.

Every Special Class Devil is also a Super Devil and has comparable strength. (Rizevim is an obvious outlier.) DxD Issei = Ddraig = Albion/DxD Vali/Sirzechs (true form) = Serious Ajuka. (The New Super Devils are comparable as well.) And they're included in the same section on Ishibumi's blog.

No, they don’t. Ajuka and Sirzechs are above the Heavenly Dragons, as Sirzechs was stated to be able to easily defeat Hades.

Hades is on par or slightly above the Heavenly Dragons based on his feats against Vali and Issei.

Special-Class is just the official term created since only recently have Super Devils become more common.

No, it was not created for Super Devils.

Beelzebub-sama said.

"This is a new rank established for them. As there was no appropriate rank for them in the current Underworld, I thought about granting the rank of Special-class Devil that is above Ultimate-class Devil."

After V15, he does, as I've shown.

Definitely not. All showings of Issei and Sairaorg fighting against Maou class opponents involve them being dominated and losing badly.

So, no Maou class feats.

Ok bro

Are you agreeing with me? Because you’ve shown Euclid matching Crimson Blaster with a Dragon Shot and stopping Issei’s Solid Impact without his armour.

Both of which depict a huge difference in strength.

He wasn't tho as I've shown.

You provided evidence in favor of what I claimed…

Because his strength was increased by an ability, it was negated, not just the boosts but the effect of the armor itself. Just like Rizevim's Sacred Gear Canceller. (These two abilities are even compared.)


Unlike, the SGC which completely destroys cause and effect of SG abilities. (Destroys the armor and negates the amp) Worthless only negates the effect. (Armor is still there but the strength increase is gone.)

The strength increase from Boost is gone, not the inherent physical strength of Issei. Diehauser doesn’t nullify kinetic force, it’s just special abilities.

He blitzed and dominated Issei without taking him seriously, just as Bedeze did with Sairaorg. I’m not sure how you’d interpret those scenes as Ishibumi meaning to portray Issei and Sairaorg at Maou class. They just have zero feats on that level.

Moreover, old Strada and Xenovia were shown on that level in volume 19 and harmed CxC Issei, and neither of them are Maou class. If I’m not mistaken, Xenovia only says she can take on a Maou in volume 23 after wearing Issei’s armour.

Yeah because of his hax and Longinus Smasher would just get negged like everything else.

And because he’s plain weaker, which is why he got badly blitzed and overpowered..

Him bragging and being cocky doesn't make Sairaorg suddenly not Maou class, I don't understand this logic.

I just checked the chapter again and he wasn’t even boasting, actually. He literally acknowledged Sairaorg’s strength but said he was on a different level because he’s often called Maou class.

There’s no way Sairaorg was Maou class there.

He's comparable to the old Maou at the very least.

No, he really is not.

And the BxB Issei he fought was relative to Kuroka (Ultimate Class) 8 Volumes prior. (Only needing 1 Boost)

That’s where your mistake is.

1. Kuroka wasn’t ultimate class. She was overpowered by BxB Issei, who’s compared to high class devils. As a matter of fact, volume 11 confirmed Issei was equivalent to a high tier High class devil.

2. Issei literally says Kuroka is on par with a high class devil in DX 2, when she fought the salamander.

So Kuroka being ultimate class was either taken out or Koneko was exaggerating, which is not outlandish since she thought Issei and Tannin working together wouldn’t take Kuroka. Lol.

If Shalba in V6 is at most 100 times stronger than his V11 counterpart (Relative to CxC), then by virtue of 14 Boosts being a larger amp than 100x, Grendel would be stronger.

Huh? That shouldn’t be how it works. Narratively, Grendel or CxC at that point were simply not Maou class.

That statement from Zero is centuries before the statement in DxD Vol17 so idk why you'd think it wouldn't apply now, he's definitely wiser as a half millenia old man than he was as a little kid. And Issei fought Sirzechs before so he should know how strong he is. (Though he was holding back.)

He claimed that he was never inferior to Grayfia, which is a definitive lie or him being delusional. His entire statement is bogus.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I'll respond to this later.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

There are 2 things I want to say.

1) In Dx 4 (Volume 23.5) when Issei CxC and Genshirou BxB clash, that was after Issei used Pseudo DxD to launch the Infinity Blaster that destroyed the battlefield, so Issei wasn't at his full power.

2) As I said I don't consider the Issei CxC and Euclid BxB fight from volume 16 to scale since Euclid held back in it. but I do consider the one from volume 17.
But I want to be sure we're on the same page on this.

“I had a hard time thanks to that, but, oh well, this time I will fight without taking you lightly.”

Saying that, he increases the wave of his demonic-power right away! His aura increases rapidly to a quantity where it can destroy this whole area! The ground below his feet also cracks open widely and there are holes in the ground.

……That sure is an amazing amount of demonic-power. If you get hit by that directly, even a High-class Devil will perish. This is him being serious.

But, I don’t know why. I think he’s far inferior to Sirzechs-sama and Grayfia-san. Even though he’s showing such amazing power right in front of me.

……Putting his power aside, his existence itself is too shallow. That’s why I can’t feel this is something great.

……Oh well, I’m also shallow myself. Still I guess I’m better than him.

“Then, here I come!”

Euclid puts his hand forward and increases his demonic-power.

[BoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoostBoost!!]

The sound which signifies the increase of power echoes from the Replica Sacred Gear and it increases his aura even more where he shoots that out right away! Explosive amount of torrents of aura!

Even I won’t be safe if I get hit by that. —But I move my Wyverns and make them line up in a row front of me.

Euclid’s demonic-power engulfs my Wyverns. That instant.

[Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!] [Divide!]

The Wyverns makes a sound that signifies the dividing of the attack, and his attack decreases every time it passes through my Wyvern. By the time it reaches me, it should be weak enough where I can simply swing my arm to destroy it.

However, since I already showed that to him last time, Euclid should be aware of this. He moves right after he shot it out and he closes the distance between us! Euclid has demonic-power charged into his fist despite moving at high velocity!

I shoot out my Dragon Shot immediately. Euclid reacts to it right away and dodges it—. But there’s one Wyvern behind him!

[Reflect!]

My Dragon Shot changes its course at the same time as the sound that signifies it has been reflected! Another Wyvern reacts to it and reflects it again! With the second reflect, my Dragon Shot is back on its original course and is heading straight towards Euclid!

Even so, Euclid moves his body to dodge it! He releases his fist covered in aura at me as he dodges my attack! His dense punch is enough to destroy my armour if I get hit by it!

I change my arm into that of Solid Impact in order to increase my defense!

He then smiles fearlessly.

“It’s futile! You won’t be able to stop my fist simply with that!”

Euclid’s brutal strike—lands on my arms that is in a cross guard position!

A strike that even shocks the core of my body! But—my arms are still in a guarding position. Euclid becomes stiff for a moment to this reality. He must have stopped because something he didn’t expect happened.

I didn’t ignore this chance and I give a powerful punch to his face while having my arm in Solid Impact mode!

Euclid gets blown back violently! His replica armour is badly destroyed!

He asks me while moving his body weakly.

“……What’s the meaning of this? My fist was superior to your aura. Guarding it should have been impossible. ……But the moment I hit you, I felt that your power had risen.”

He sure has sharp eyes. He really does observe me carefully.

Next to me—is a flying red Wyvern. It seems like Euclid became shocked seeing that.

“……! Are you telling me that red Wyvern……can also use the Sekiryuutei’s power!?”

Breaking it down by part

-Unlike the previous time, this time EuclidBxB decides not to hold back and releases all his power, Issei CxC feels his power and considers that he is inferior to Sirzechs, Grayfia and HIMSELF (making it clear that he is also inferior to Sirzechs and Grayfia).

-Euclid BxB uses 14 Boost and launches an attack on Issei CxC

-Issei CxC uses Solid Impact Booster, Euclid mocks and says that it cannot stop his attack indicating his superiority over Issei CxC Solid Impact Booster

-Euclid BxB's attack with 14 Boost hits but Issei does not move and takes advantage of Euclid BxB's surprise (14 Boost) to throw a punch that breaks his armor.

-The Euclid BxB emphasizes his superiority over Issei CxC Solid Impact Booster with his fist with 14 Boost and does not understand how that happened, then it is revealed to us that Issei used a Red Wyvern to boost himself.

using current values

CxC: 119.38322164335907995648 Yottatons
CxC Solid Impact Booster: 716.29932986015447973888 Yottatons
CxC Solid Impact Booster with a Red Wyvern: 1.43259865972030895947776 Ronnatons

Euclid BxB with 14 Boost is superior to Solid Impact Booster but inferior to Red Wyvern, so at least 716.29932986015447973888 Yottatons

using a reverse scale we get
Euclid BxB: 43.71944151978481932 Zettatons

if we apply the Scale Mail multiplier the Euclid Base gives us: 166.776434020175244598388671875 Petatons

This puts Euclid BxB above Shalba Ophis's Snake which was comparable to the Original Beelzebub(Old Maou)

and puts Euclib Base above Rias 19 Boost and Kokabiel.