Dream Stone Re-Upgrade CRT

[Eseseso]

Agree!

 

[Foxthefox1000]

12 agrees so far.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I can buy 2-B Dream Stone, but I see no reason it should scale to the full size of Dream Depot. Only the dreams that have been made on Pi’illo Island since the stone’s influence largely centered around there.

So you agree with the upgrade in general?

 

[AStrangeverse]

gonna need more staff input

 

[JJSliderman]

So you agree with the upgrade in general?

Yeah, although maybe a lower degree of 2-B.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Alright gotcha

Now we just need more mod input

 

[Phsccarvalho]

As some are aware, in a semi-recent thread, the Dream Stone and those who scale to it or use it's power got downgraded due to so-called translation issues.

I'm not going to go into the semantics of arguing over wording used because that would just be annoying.

However, I think a simple counter to the basis of the Stones not being made of Dreams and Nightmares is the less-focused-on Dark Stone. It was hiding in plain sight, really.

In Japanese, while the Stones are initially said by Dreambert to be made of the "power of Dreams" and likewise nightmares for the Dark Stone, if one is to look into more of the game, as well as see more of that cutscene itself, we see that Antasma shattering the Dark Stone sent fragments of nightmares across the lands, petrifying the Islanders and trapping their souls inside of the Nightmare Chunks (Nightmare Fragments).

Now, I ask a simple question: How can one deny the English translation that says the Stones are made up of the Dreams and Nightmares themselves when even the Japanese version treats the literal chunks of the shattered Dark Stone as nightmares? Nightmares are the dark equivalent of dreams, so I will not hear "the nightmares are inferior" or whatever when all context points to the Stones being equals. So, via common sense, the Dream Stone would have to also be made of dreams as well.

It's likely that "power of dreams" is akin to something like saying an atomic bomb is made up of the power of atoms. They simply just house the power source inside of them. It doesn't invalidate the English translation at all given we can literally see that the Dark Stone is made of nightmares in both versions.

So, on this basis, I propose that the Dream Stone and Dark Stone and those who scale to it or use their power should all be upgraded back up to 2-B again.

Agree (13): JTgamer96, Mephistus, StretchSebe, Remus1998, Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E, DarkDragonMedeus, ZespeonGalaxy, The_Unknown_Warrior1, Eseseso, CloverDragon03, AStrangeverse, AParticularInduvidial, JJSliderman (thinks it should be a lower 2-B though)

Neutral:

Disagree:

I expect this thread to go over well given the very clear counter to the entire basis of the downgrade thread previously. Either find more compelling evidence the Stones aren't literally made of what powers them like the game very clearly shows or you have no argument.

Not to insult clover in any way but why is he in bold? He has no voting power. He is a Calc member.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Not to insult clover in any way but why is he in bold? He has no voting power. He is a Calc member.

in the server I told him clover probably gets in bold, thats on me. I assumed calc members get bold or have the same voting power as mods or admins

 

[CloverDragon03]

in the server I told him clover probably gets in bold, thats on me. I assumed calc members get bold or have the same voting power as mods or admins

This is a shockingly common misconception apparently, damn. Calc Group Members and Content Mods don't have the same voting power that Thread Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats have, no. Our vote is akin to a regular user's vote

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not to insult clover in any way but why is he in bold? He has no voting power. He is a Calc member.

I feel very insulted smh

 

[Qawsedf234]

In Japanese, while the Stones are initially said by Dreambert to be made of the "power of Dreams" and likewise nightmares for the Dark Stone, if one is to look into more of the game, as well as see more of that cutscene itself, we see that Antasma shattering the Dark Stone sent fragments of nightmares across the lands, petrifying the Islanders and trapping their souls inside of the Nightmare Chunks (Nightmare Fragments).

How does "Power of Dreams" translate to "Scales to an uncountable number of universes being created/destroyed"?

 

[JJSliderman]

It’s more that the stone itself is made of many dreams compressed into a single stone

 

[Qawsedf234]

It’s more that the stone itself is made of many dreams compressed into a single stone

But why would that grant the stone 2-B AP?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Because each dream is a universe

 

[Omnificence]

But why would that grant the stone 2-B AP?

It was previously agreed on in this thread that the number of dreams would make the stone 2-B. There's also this cosmology blog that suggests a higher number of them.

 

[Eseseso]

If I had a nickel for every gaming verse I knew that got 2-B due to dreams being universes, I'd have 2 nickels.

Which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Because each dream is a universe

But what does the stone do to warrant scaling to those universes?

It was previously agreed on in this thread that the number of dreams would make the stone 2-B.

Just containing dreams isn't a AP feat. Its just a product of the stone's existence. You would need to explain why it would transfer to AP.

 

[JJSliderman]

Bowser absorbs the stone and uses it’s energy to attack with, and the stone translates its dream energy into wishes it grants.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bowser absorbs the stone and uses it’s energy to attack with,

I'm not sure if that really count. Going by our FAQ page on infinite energy sources

For example, a power source that never depletes could have an infinite quantity of energy, but can't necessarily be wielded with infinite magnitude (not all at once).

You have to prove they can wield the object with 2-B magnitude.

stone translates its dream energy into wishes it grants.

Does any wish effect the entire Dream cosmology?

 

[JJSliderman]

Can’t answer the first one but not, don’t think Bowser is affecting the whole dream cosmology. The stone does absorb dreams from all across Pi’illo Island though, which is referred to as charging up the stone.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The Dream Stone is literally made up of dreams and uses them to grant wishes by absorbing them and their power. Like was said, at one point in the games the antagonists charge it up with the dreams of everyone on the island.

Bowser absorbs the stone and literally becomes like one with it, but we also have feats of people destroying the stones (which again is made up of universes) as well as a bird deity that directly can match the Stone's power AND restore it should it get destroyed. In the end the Zeekeeper turns it's remains into a Dream Coin.

Also just don't see why they wouldn't be using the max power of the Stone, especially Dreamy Bowser. He has no reason to hold back. The Stone doesn't even have infinite energy either. It had to be charged, and Bowser didn't really get to use his wish, implying it still was at full power (it needed to be charged to grant wishes).

At the very least it's still Tier 2. 2-C minimum but up to 2-B is fair.

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Dream Stone is literally made up of dreams

Doesn't mean anything

Like was said, at one point in the games the antagonists charge it up with the dreams of everyone on the island.

But do they change/effect these universal spaces all at once? Because that's what would make it 2-B.

Also just don't see why they wouldn't be using the max power of the Stone,

You have to prove they can wield infinite magnitude. It has nothing to do with them logically holding back or not.

At the very least it's still Tier 2

If it can completely warp a dream with a wish it being Tier 2. But you need more for it to be 2-B.

 

[Omnificence]

Doesn't mean anything

But do they change/effect these universal spaces all at once? Because that's what would make it 2-B.

You have to prove they can wield infinite magnitude. It has nothing to do with them logically holding back or not.

If it can completely warp a dream with a wish it being Tier 2. But you need more for it to be 2-B.

How exactly does the Dream Stone being made of dreams mean nothing in this case? If the dreams are universes, that should mean that there are a certain amount of universes held in the stone, and we've already been over how big these dreams are in this thread, and no, they not only have a galaxy in them, but dimensions, space-time, and an additional layer whenever characters like Mario have nightmares or dreams in these dream worlds. Dreambert even stated Luigi is able to become one with the dream world whenever he enters them, and we already know Antasma is able to manipulate these dreams. Why does this not make the Dream Stone or any other character at the very least 2-C?

 

[Qawsedf234]

How exactly does the Dream Stone being made of dreams mean nothing in this case? If the dreams are universes, that should mean that there are a certain amount of universes held in the stone, and we've already been over how big these dreams are in this thread, and no, they not only have a galaxy in them, but dimensions, space-time, and an additional layer whenever characters like Mario have nightmares or dreams in these dream worlds. Dreambert even stated Luigi is able to become one with the dream world whenever he enters them, and we already know Antasma is able to manipulate these dreams. Why does this not make the Dream Stone or any other character at the very least 2-C?

Because containing something or drawing power from it is not an AP feat going by our FAQ. It have to prove they can wield that stone with infinite magnitude for them to scale to 2-C or 2-B.

 

[Omnificence]

Because containing something or drawing power from it is not an AP feat going by our FAQ. It have to prove they can wield that stone with infinite magnitude for them to scale to 2-C or 2-B.

Well, yeah, but it also says "One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves." Ane it also says that "direct destruction or creation qualifies" for Low 2-C, and if these universes are created from dreams whenever characters dream, shouldn't that warrant Low 2-C? And besides, infinite power or strength would just be a High 3-A feat like the FAQ page says, right?

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Well, yeah, but it also says "One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves." Ane it also says that "direct destruction or creation qualifies" for Low 2-C, and if these universes are created from dreams whenever characters dream, shouldn't that warrant Low 2-C?

Hmm, I don't know lads, Low 2-C seems very low bar to me, but if it's some form of "compromise" currently then it's "Okay".

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, yeah, but it also says "One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves."

Which is why I asked if they ever effected the entire Dream Realm, since that would be 2-B. A stone drawing power from dreams isn't Tier 2 and containing dreams can make the stone Tier 2 but those powered by it still need to show they can use it in an infinite magnitude.

these universes are created from dreams whenever characters dream, shouldn't that warrant Low 2-C?

Again, you need to prove they can wield the power source at Tier 2 levels for them to be Tier 2.

Effecting a dream is fine. But the OP needs to show them effecting a dream.

 

[Omnificence]

Effecting a dream is fine. But the OP needs to show them effecting a dream.

So, Luigi becoming one with the dream world and being able to manipulate both the space and time in it doesn't count? What about Antasma fighting Mario in his nightmare and placing seemingly endless abysses whenever he falls into one of them? Does this not look like Luigi or Antasma effecting a dream?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So, Luigi becoming one with the dream world and being able to manipulate both the space and time in it doesn't count?

When did I say that wouldn't count? I said the OP has not provided anything showing that they effected an entire dream or the dream realm.

Does this not look like Luigi or Antasma effecting a dream?

They are, but the OP provided neither of those showings in their post.

 

[CloverDragon03]

OP should preferably add those in as instances of dreams being affected in their entirety, as that would help a lot

 

[Omnificence]

OP should preferably add those in as instances of dreams being affected in their entirety, as that would help a lot

Yeah, that would probably be advisable.

When did I say that wouldn't count? I said the OP has not provided anything showing that they effected an entire dream or the dream realm.

They are, but the OP provided neither of those showings in their post.

Then wouldn't this warrant Low 2-C or no?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why are we suddenly jumping to Low 2-C, though? I thought the Dream Stone would be 2-B because of how many dreams there are

 

[Omnificence]

Why are we suddenly jumping to Low 2-C, though? I thought the Dream Stone would be 2-B because of how many dreams there are

Yeah, but I was just trying to verify all this with Qawsedf since it seemed like he had doubts.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, but I was just trying to verify all this with Qawsedf since it seemed like he had doubts.

So you're basically explaining how affecting a singular dream is Low 2-C?

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

So you're basically explaining how affecting a singular dream is Low 2-C?

Well no, JT had an agreement for 2-B apparently. Let him re-explain.

 

[Omnificence]

Well no, JT had an agreement for 2-B apparently. Let him re-explain.

So you're basically explaining how affecting a singular dream is Low 2-C?

Correct on both parts.

 

[Lou_change]

Correct on both parts.

So are you suggesting it absorbing dreams proves it is 2-B?

 

[Omnificence]

So are you suggesting it absorbing dreams proves it is 2-B?

Yes, and if not that, then at least Low 2-C or 2-C.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Why are we suddenly jumping to Low 2-C, though? I thought the Dream Stone would be 2-B because of how many dreams there are

I asked did it ever effect all the Dreams at once and the conversation swerved from there.