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Dragonborn vs The Unbeliever

"The Apprentice travels through various realms of Oblivio to reach Dagon, defeats him, and escapes back to Tamriel with their rescued partner."

so he fights dagon in a plane of oblivion (not specific realm mentioned) and after defeating him THEN he goes back to nirn/tamriel
 
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
"The Apprentice travels through various realms of Oblivio to reach Dagon, defeats him, and escapes back to Tamriel with their rescued partner."
so he fights dagon in a plane of oblivion (not specific realm mentioned) and after defeating him THEN he goes back to nirn/tamriel
Click to expand...
I was talking about Chimere Graegyn. And you do realise that we used the Neonymic and Protonymic to nerf Mehrunes Dagon, right? He literally let you bind him with both his Protonymic and Neonymic and still talk to you for a couple of seconds. And even then the game gives you 2 to 3 seconds to attack Mehrunes Dagon or he started attacking and one-shot you, so clearly, that armor did nothing against Mehrunes Dagon.

"At this point, you have approximately 2 to 3 seconds to act. You must strike Dagon with the Moon Reiver or perish. If Dagon is slain, the ending sequence plays." - UESP

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Mehrunes_Dago

Anyway, this is derailing so we should stop.
 
Waria Kambang said:
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
"The Apprentice travels through various realms of Oblivio to reach Dagon, defeats him, and escapes back to Tamriel with their rescued partner."
so he fights dagon in a plane of oblivion (not specific realm mentioned) and after defeating him THEN he goes back to nirn/tamriel
Click to expand...
I was talking about Chimere Graegyn. And you do realise that we used the Neonymic and Protonymic to nerf Mehrunes Dagon, right? He literally let you bind him with both his Protonymic and Neonymic and still talk to you for a couple of seconds. And even then the game gives you 2 to 3 seconds to attack Mehrunes Dagon or he started attacking and one-shot you, so clearly, that armor did nothing against Mehrunes Dagon.
"At this point, you have approximately 2 to 3 seconds to act. You must strike Dagon with the Moon Reiver or perish. If Dagon is slain, the ending sequence plays." - UESP

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Mehrunes_Dago

Anyway, this is derailing so we should stop.
Click to expand...
From the wiki page,

"Chimere tricked Dagon into swearing an oath against the Powers which he had no intention of keeping, then used the Saviour's Hide to turn Dagon's titanic fury long enough for Chimere to deliver his own attack -- an incantation invoked upon Dagon's "Protonymic" (i.e., Incantory True Name) which would gradually drain all of Dagon's power into the void. "

Chimere used the Savior's Hide to survive a few moments before invoking the anti-Daedric ritutal. The artifact tanked the High 1-B attacks. Not to mention, a Daedric Prince in true form is a stuff of nightmare. Reality and concept change by his presence, yet Chimere wasn't completely consumed by the titanic, dark aura alone.
 
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
except that it says that they were on a plane of oblivio
Click to expand...
Where was it stated? Give me official in-game books or evidences.

There are two instances where Savior's Hide is used against Mehrunes Dagon, with both of them being not enough to justify Savior's Hide High 1-B durability, because:

A. in the case of Chimere Graegyn, we don't know the location of the summoning of Mehrunes Dagon.

B. during the event of Battlespire, where he was jobing so bad that he literally let you bind him with both his Protonymic and Neonymic , talk to you for a couple of seconds, and even then he still would have killed you in one hit if you didn't hit him first with the Moon Reaver.
 
Waria Kambang said:
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
except that it says that they were on a plane of oblivio
Click to expand...
Where was it stated? Give me official in-game books or evidences.
There are two instances where Savior's Hide is used against Mehrunes Dagon, with both of them being not enough to justify Savior's Hide High 1-B durability, because:

A. in the case of Chimere Graegyn, we don't know the location of the summoning of Mehrunes Dagon.

B. during the event of Battlespire, where he was jobing so bad that he literally let you bind him with both his Protonymic and Neonymic , talk to you for a couple of seconds, and even then he still would have killed you in one hit if you didn't hit him first with the Moon Reaver.
Click to expand...
You don't need the location. Mehrunes Dagon was in his true form during the Oblivion Crisis. His power was at its ultimate level. The same thing applies here. It does not quite matter where, the matter is his form.

The similar thing can be found with Nocturnal invading Clockwork City with her true form as well.
 
Schnee One said:
Anyway, Jessica Stomps
Anybody have objections to close?
Click to expand...
I don't. I was somewhat hoping for a decent counterargument first, but I'm not seeing anyone put forth any info that's going to allow Dovah to not die before the fight even starts.

Just close it, so we can move on...Or I can do it. It's up to you.
 
Except that it does matter. We all know that the barrier that protect Mundus nerf the heck out of the Daedric Princes, so yes, it does matter. And again, I would like you to provide evidences that prove that Dagon's power was at it's "ultimate level".

Except that it was her manifestation. There's a reason why other Daedric Prince like Barbas is defeatable inside of Clockwork City when we fought them, you know. Or are you going to say that the Vestige was High 1-B when he defeated Barbas in Clockwork City? Heck, her best feat is just engulfing the Clockwork City (which is a replication of Mundus, a Low 1-C realm) and she was banished by Sotha Sil, who required the help of Almalexia to defeat Dagon, in an instant, even though Nocturnal is the Ur-Dra and can basically strong armed the other Daedric Princes to follow her commands. All of these proves that she was not in her true form and was rather just a manifestation.
 
Before I close is any of this relevant to the match? Or does Jessica stomp regardless of what you guys are talking about.
 
Schnee One said:
Before I close is any of this relevant to the match? Or does Jessica stomp regardless of what you guys are talking about.
Click to expand...
It's relevant. Because if what they said are true, then the Dovahkiin would have High 1-B armor, but it's not true, so there's that.
 
Savior's Hide. TOAAPRESENCE and KongKing23 are saying that it's High 1-B because it can tanked true form Mehrunes Dagon's attacks, which in my opinion is not true.
 
Honestly, unless the armor protects him from EE, or just isn't a physical object at all, I don't think it would save him either. It would simply make him really durable compared to normal.

Like, if it were to heighten his physical dimensions or something, that would be one thing. But if not, then even assuming it scales to High 1-B, he's still just a 3-D being with High 1-B durability. Unless there's some very specific protections that come with wearing the armor, but I'd need a citation for that.

And that's assuming the optimal, really...
 
No I mean if what they say is true and Dova has High 1B armor, does it matter, because if not it's a stomp regardless.
 
I don't think it matters based on what MrKing said. Personally, I don't think this is a stomp, but you guys can close this if you want.
 
I mean Dova can end her with a since thought, butbwhether or not that's in character or not I dunno
 
Passive wins are a textbook example of a stomp, last I recall.

Doubly so when 90% of what the losing character can do is nullified on top of that.
 
I mean, Mora's Grasp doesn't bfr an enemy to oblivion plain out, so no-one is getting tagged by daedra in Oblivion due to the ability. They are stuck between the two realities (as real as oblivion is, anyways), which is a fancy way of saying that they become intangible and unable to attack or be attacked. Unless I missed something, there is nothing in-lore claiming this effect lasts longer than in-game, so that is only thirty seconds regardless.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
Passive wins are a textbook example of a stomp, last I recall.
Doubly so when 90% of what the losing character can do is nullified on top of that.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but what is her range, though? Dovah can snipe her from kilometers away with his BFR if her passive is just a couple of meters. Not to mention that the BFR can't be nullified since it's a power that directly comes from the true form of the Black Book that you found in Apocrypha.
 
One of the main uses of the ability is to rescue followers just before they are killed off. It's not an offensive ability.

Being between tamriel and oblivion isn't the same as being in Oblivion. What the ability does is obvious, and extrapolating that for whatever reason a daedra can and would attack people affected by this ability lacks proof, and goes against what the porpuse of the spell is.
 
I couldn't tell you what the peak of her range is, honestly. I ran into this problem some time ago; there isn't enough context given to set a limit on what she's capable of affecting at once, or how far away someone would have to be in order for her to be completely unable to erase them. (If that's at all possible)

Her range is definitely a lot more than a couple of meters, though. She's described as having erased entire locations with her unbelief during her rampage in Book 2.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
One of the main uses of the ability is to rescue followers just before they are killed off. It's not an offensive ability.
Being between tamriel and oblivion isn't the same as being in Oblivion. What the ability does is obvious, and extrapolating that for whatever reason a daedra can and would attack people affected by this ability lacks proof, and goes against what the porpuse of the spell is.
Click to expand...
That doesn't prove anything. What it's supposed to be used in game and what it's actually in the lore is completely two different things. Not to mention that it can be used offensively by using it on your enemies.

I did explain in my previous comments that you are stuck between Mundus and Oblivion, so I agree with what you said. And yes, what it does is obvious, and that is freezing your enemies between Mundus and Oblivion. Heck, the Black Book can easily transport you to the realm of Oblivion for all of eternity, and somehow the power that is supposed to be it's true power can't even do something easier than that?
 
And what is there in lore? I did play through the fame, and while I didn't read every book, I am pretty damn sure there isn't even a single description of the power's effects outside of the ability description.

That is extrapolation though. There are many things that should be potentially possible. Someone with 100 destruction should know the most basic damage attribute abilities, yet we don't scale those abilities despite master destruction spells being far more complex, costly and powerful.

You need to give proof that the bfr is permanent. If people were granted the power to transform others into essentially intangible spectres forever, there should be a mention of it somewhere.

But without proof, you can't equate the ability of the book to transport you into a plane of oblivion itself with an ability it grants that lock someone in the middle of two realms permanently.
 
Because the game mechanics would not allow that not to mention it would be broken unless you also think that the dova needs 1 to 2 hours to use shouts and then another 30 minutes to use another

is like the stop time shout the game does not allow a complete stop
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
snips
Click to expand...
Using in-game ability description as a lead is already a flawed method to begin with. Levels and times are nothing more than balancing variables used by the devs to balance the game. At worst, the duration of Mora's Grasp is unknown.

Most of the abilities descriptions in Skyrim doesn't go pass gameplay statistics. I mean, in the lore a simple fireball spell can incinerate someone, but in-game there's not a single mention of it being able to do anything beside dealing an x amount of damage. So no, most abilities description in Skyrim doesn't go past gameplay statistics.

The mechanic of the power works similarly to the transportation power of the Black Book. You can clearly see it in it leaving behind a life force of the victims, much like the Black Book did to your body when you read it, which was explained by Frea.

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree, since it's 23:24 in Indonesia and I'm really tired.
 
That does not make your headcanon a better option.

Teleport ing someone to a realm of oblivion an keeping them between oblivion and tamriel is not a 1:1 transition. For all we know keeping someone "close" enough to tamriel that they can be visibly seen but far enough that they cannot be interacted with requires energy that the ability provides, and eventually runs out of.

And you can't equate the power of the book itself to one it grants.

Regardless, the ability isn't listen as permanent on the profile, and we don't accept mechanics purely based on conjecture. One would think that closing the eye of magnus and slowing the amount of magicka that Tamriel gets should have greater effects but... it doesn't.
 
Even if the BFR did work it gets power nulled since the Dovahkiin doesn't have high enough resistance to that.

After reading this thread I think there is another Elder Scrolls character that would be a much better match, The Hist.
 
Or those with any type of passive wth Mid Godly that doesn't get nulled.
 
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