Dragon Ball Super: Universes/Timeline Tiering Revision

[Reiner04]

So in this thread, the Room of Spirit and Time has been accepted as being a seperate structure outside of the universe. Now, this is a problem because we currently default the universes (which are affected by time travel) to separate space-times because the ROSAT is considered part of them in the first place.

Without proof that the individual universes can contain seperate Space-Times, the universes/macrocosms are reduced to 3-A, and the entire timeline potentially becomes Low 2-C.

This thread is to discuss if there is any further evidence that can be provided to prove that each universe is can be treated as Low 2-C and if not, whether a change in tiering is required following the last thread. As it stands, the cosmology is possibly in limbo because the current note uses the ROSAT as evidence for universes encompassing other space-times. So even if the universes/timeline remains the same tier, new justifications could still be needed.

Spoiler: Current Cosmology Note

We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate time-spaces relative to each other.... The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.

IF the cosmological structure is revised, it would likely lead to a downgrade of the cast. For example, Zen'o could become Low 2-C and every Universe Level + character could be downgraded to Universe Level. Or, a downgrade from the infamous "Half 2-C" AP could occur, with upscaling for Infinite Zamasu taking place. Basically, there could be some sort of change.

Also update the vote tally now.
Agree with the downgrade: @Theglassman12 , @Maverick_Zero_X , @Planck69

Disagree: @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Reiner04]

I’m claiming it’s within the timeline

That doesn't really matter, you had need to prove that it's inside the timeline regardless. This is the very first claim in here that RoSaT is inside the timeline but with no evidence we already past the argument off.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

That doesn't really matter, you had need to prove that it's inside the timeline regardless.

I did it’s a subspace where time and space are differently the scan shows that you’d have to prove its not within the timeline since I’ve proved it is (I’m not saying it’s in the living universe before that’s brought up again I’m saying it’s inside the timeline and is a subspace)

 

[Tarang123]

yes it is, because the reason for us to assume that they were low 2-C is not valid anymore as of the last thread

The point isn't whether or not they're valid. The point is that them being Low 2C didn't change even with the time travel aspect, so why would we automatically assume that a seperate space-time isn't affected by time travel if there's no evidence that it's external to the entire timeline?

the rosat being a space time affected was the reason we assumed that they were space times in the first place, or else they wouldn't be assumed at all in the first place, without that the is no reason to assume that they are space times

That isn't the point being made. You're arguing semantics and missing the big picture. The main point is that the universes aren't Low 2C because the ROSAT isn't affected by time travel and is a seperate space-time (the former lacks any evidence as support, mind you). The important bit is the "isn't affected by time travel" bit as that's your main counter against the universes in DB's multiverse being Low 2C and for the ROSAT being separate to it.

This is cool and all, but like I said earlier, we already had a similar situation with the individual universes when they were still Low 2C. There is literally no reason why our standards should shift in this case.

 

[Reiner04]

I did it’s a subspace where time and space are differently the scan shows that you’d have to prove its not within the timeline since I’ve proved it is (I’m not saying it’s in the living universe before that’s brought up again I’m saying it’s inside the timeline and is a subspace)

How the **** being sub space proves that it's within the timeline smh?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

How the **** being sub space proves that it's within the timeline smh?

1.
MATHEMATICS
a space that is wholly contained in another space, or whose points or elements are all in another space.

 

[Reiner04]

1.
MATHEMATICS
a space that is wholly contained in another space, or whose points or elements are all in another space.

Nice I couldn't just describe how shittest evidence it is than anyone here.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Nice I couldn't just describe how shittest evidence it is than anyone here.

Well is there any proof the RoSaT is outside of the timeline because that makes 0 sense and I’ve shown you that there’s a statement of the RoSaT being a subspace (space within another space)

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The RoSaT doesn’t have its own time ring so it was dumb already to assume it’s its own timeline but it’s legit called a subspace

 

[Tarang123]

Well is there any proof the RoSaT is outside of the timeline because that makes 0 sense and I’ve shown you that there’s a statement of the RoSaT being a subspace (space within another space)

There is no evidence of it. It was an assumption made

 

[Reiner04]

Well is there any proof the RoSaT is outside of the timeline because that makes 0 sense and I’ve shown you that there’s a statement of the RoSaT being a subspace (space within another space) being Subspace, extrad doesn't change

Being Subspace, extradimension, hyper dimension, super space and all the ****, doesn't matter as long as these terms aren't elaborated in fiction.

Well is there any proof the RoSaT is outside of the timeline because that makes 0 sense and I’ve shown you that there’s a statement of the RoSaT being a subspace (space within another space)

It's a separate spacetime and that's what makes it spacetime outside of usual spacetime we know.

Otherwise on the other hand have 0 evidence and no logic and extraordinary claim of one spacetime containing other at that. So the burden of proof is where it seems.

 

[Reiner04]

The RoSaT doesn’t have its own time ring so it was dumb already to assume it’s its own timeline but it’s legit called a subspace

Proof sir? Evidence good sir

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Being Subspace, extradimension, hyper dimension, super space and all the ****, doesn't matter as long as these terms aren't elaborated in fiction.

It's a separate spacetime and that's what makes it spacetime outside of usual spacetime we know.

Otherwise on the other hand have 0 evidence and no logic and extraordinary claim of one spacetime containing other at that. So the burden of proof is where it seems.

It elaborated on what the RoSaT was and then it called it a subspace it’s obvious it was referring to it being a space inside another space the RoSaT is a space time continumm but it’s been visually shown and implied to be inside the timeline and I’ve shown you a guide that states it’s a subspace the burden of proof is defintiely on you to prove its it’s own space time and if you say it is why is there no time ring for it?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The translation translates to subspace but if you don’t think it does you can get it properly translated

No.
Where is the source?
Where are the scans?

 

[Omegabronic]

The translation translates to subspace but if you don’t think it does you can get it properly translated

how is it contradicted I’m not saying it’s a subspace of Universe 7 I’m saying it’s a sub space that exists outside the universe but within the timeline and that’s not contradicted at all

and that is the point, that part of the guide was talking about the sub areas of the living universe, it was not talking about the timeline of the entire macrocosm, in context it was saying that the rosat as a subspace of the living universe, and as such part of the universe, which is what is contradicted

I’m not going in a circle I’m not claiming it’s in Universe 7 but I’m claiming it’s within the timeline since it’s stated to be a subspace

in that guide it was talking as if it was part of universe 7's living universe

The point isn't whether or not they're valid. The point is that them being Low 2C didn't change even with the time travel aspect

because we had proof that in db time travel could affect other space times, now we don't have said proof anymore

, so why would we automatically assume that a seperate space-time isn't affected by time travel if there's no evidence that it's external to the entire timeline?

to say that another space time can be affected is a claim that needs proof, the burden is on the side that says that it can

That isn't the point being made. You're arguing semantics and missing the big picture. The main point is that the universes aren't Low 2C because the ROSAT isn't affected by time travel and is a seperate space-time (the former lacks any evidence as support, mind you).

not how it works, a separated space time wouldn't be affected, that is the default assumption, the burden of proof is on you

The important bit is the "isn't affected by time travel" bit as that's your main counter against the universes in DB's multiverse being Low 2C and for the ROSAT being separate to it.

yes, there is no proof of it being affected, so since it is a separated space time and not part of the universe, we can't assume that it is since that is how separated space times work

This is cool and all, but like I said earlier, we already had a similar situation with the individual universes when they were still Low 2C.

and we had a reason to believe that separated space times could be affected, since the rosat was part of the universe and would branch from it, now we don't have that anymore, so we have no reason to assume anything, you would need evidence that alternate space times can be affected

There is literally no reason why our standards should shift in this case.

there is no shift, an alternate space time would not be affected by the time travel in another space time, since it would only be traveling in that one's time dimension and not the other, so it would be unaffected

Well is there any proof the RoSaT is outside of the timeline because that makes 0 sense

it makes 0 sense because?

There is no evidence of it. It was an assumption made

this is the default assumption

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

No.
Where is the source?
Where are the scans?

Feel free to match up the Kanji as shown in the scan

 

[Tarang123]

because we had proof that in db time travel could affect other space times, now we don't have said proof anymore

That doesn't matter. Again, the argument is whether the ROSAT is disconnected from the timeline, which there is literally zero evidence of.

The universes having evidence of other space-times before doesn't change the fact that they were under a larger timeline. So considering that 12 different space-times (would we call them former space-times?) were affected and this was accepted by the wiki, why would we immediately assume that the ROSAT is somehow an exception to this standard when there's zero evidence whatsoever?

 

[Tarang123]

to say that another space time can be affected is a claim that needs proof, the burden is on the side that says that it can

No, you have claimed that it can't, so you have to prove it. Don't shift the burden of proof.

not how it works, a separated space time wouldn't be affected, that is the default assumption, the burden of proof is on you

We already assumed that 12 seperated space-times were affected, so this is a moot point.

yes, there is no proof of it being affected, so since it is a separated space time and not part of the universe, we can't assume that it is since that is how separated space times work

First of all, there's no implication that it has its own time ring (thanks for whoever pointed that out), so it's clearly not some other timeline, but it's not part of some other timeline as it's its own dimension. So taking that into account, there is literally zero reason to assume that it's outside the timeline. Outside the universe? Sure, assuming we take the composite DB cosmology. But outside the entire timeline? Show evidence for this.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Feel free to match up the Kanji as shown in the scan

Link isn't working.

 

[Omegabronic]

btw, going to sleep, going to answer tomorrow good night

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Link isn't working.

It didn’t embed?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The link itself is dead.

 

[Reiner04]

No, you have claimed that it can't, so you have to prove it. Don't shift the burden of proof.


We already assumed that 12 seperated space-times were affected, so this is a moot point.


First of all, there's no implication that it has its own time ring (thanks for whoever pointed that out), so it's clearly not some other timeline, but it's not part of some other timeline as it's its own dimension. So taking that into account, there is literally zero reason to assume that it's outside the timeline. Outside the universe? Sure, assuming we take the composite DB cosmology. But outside the entire timeline? Show evidence for this.

1. Rosat was the reason for special status of timeline in dragon ball, RoSaT is gone, it's special status is gone, so reasoning for it having special property of separate spacetime's being affected all together doesn't hold true.
2. RoSaT Timeline not having it's own time ring is a point brought up by supporters as a evidence that timeline contains RoSaT, so they have to prove it doesn't have it's time ring. Dragonball is a 2B cosmology we haven't seen countless timerings, RoSaT timering is just one of them.

The link itself is dead.

Don't open or ask for links flower chan, who knows where it will take you or show you.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The link itself is dead.

I’ll try again tomorrow

1. Rosat was the reason for special status of timeline in dragon ball, RoSaT is gone, it's special status is gone, so reasoning for it having special property of separate spacetime's being affected all together doesn't hold true.
2. RoSaT Timeline not having it's own time ring is a point brought up by supporters as a evidence that timeline contains RoSaT, so they have to prove it doesn't have it's time ring. Dragonball is a 2B cosmology we haven't seen countless timerings, RoSaT timering is just one of them.

Don't open or ask for links flower chan, who knows where it will take you or show you.

How wouldnt the burden of proof not be on you to prove that? That absolutely makes zero sense and isn’t even implied you have to prove there’s a time ring

also don’t worry idek how to do ip stuff plus i have no reason to

 

[Aachintya31]

What's the point in debating 8 pages when at the end of the day its the staff who decides what's gonna happen ?

 

[OneRhasstyBoi]

Why does Frieza’s statement about the ROSAT is being taken literally as fact?
In the scan in which Frieza made the statement, he used “perhaps”, which basically mean that is just his guess about the subject of the matter, not only that, he also didn’t know anything nor does he manage the ROSAT. Besides, his statement about not being a part of the universe will make you not being affected by the “ Strongest in the universe” is also contradicted by DBS Manga. It clearly shows that despite existing in the same universe as Granolah, UE Vegeta can actually grow stronger than him, forcing Granolah to evolve his right eye. It means that you can train to become stronger than the one that have “The strongest in the universe” wish and Frieza being stronger than Gas is just the result of him training in the ROSAT for 10 years rather than not being a part of the universe.
DBS Anime also has a feat of Vegeta destroying the ROSAT and he ends up being inside of U7’s scope. Imagine being in a room and that room exists inside a building, if you destroys that room, you will end up being inside of the building, the same applies to the ROSAT and U7. If the ROSAT exists outside of U7, when Vegeta destroys it, he will end up elsewhere and not U7.

 

[Stefano4444]

I would also like to know why was necessary to use the ROSAT to prove that universes are Low 2-C in the first place?

When usually parallel universes are treated as Low 2-C by default, even when they exist within a timeline.

 

[Reiner04]

I’ll try again tomorrow

How wouldnt the burden of proof not be on you to prove that? That absolutely makes zero sense and isn’t even implied you have to prove there’s a time ring

also don’t worry idek how to do ip stuff plus i have no reason to

1. You said every timeline has its time ring.
2. I said okay, every timeline does.
3. You said but RoSaT doesn't.
4. I asked for proof.
5. You are saying we didn't seen RoSaT timeline time ring so that means it doesn't have? Dragonball is not 2B cosmology that means?

Burden of proof is on you. For proving that the timeline timerings that hasn't been shown implies that they're not timelines.

 

[Reiner04]

I would also like to know why was necessary to use the ROSAT to prove that universes are Low 2-C in the first place?

When usually parallel universes are treated as Low 2-C by default, even when they exist within a timeline.

Quilted multiverse exist and dragonball has been implies to follow it.

 

[Archinord991]

Can we let the staff evaluate? rather than adding more than 10 pages of endless debate.

 

[Stefano4444]

Quilted multiverse exist and dragonball has been implies to follow it.

Those type of universes are also by default consider Low 2-C structures, even if they exist within a timeline.

I mean its the reason why Ben 10 Cosmology had been upgraded to 2-A, since an universe/timeline hold an infinite number of realities, otherwise it would have been just High 3-A/Low 2-C.

 

[Aachintya31]

Those type of universes are also by default consider Low 2-C structures, even if they exist within a timeline.

Time travel/creating a paradox in one universe causes branching of entire multiverse implying them to share a common space-time. Hence ,3-A universe and Low 2-C timeline.

 

[Stefano4444]

Time travel/creating a paradox in one universe causes branching of entire multiverse implying them to share a common space-time. Hence ,3-A universe and Low 2-C timeline.

Problem its that by the standard of the site we still treat those as Low 2-C even when they all equally affected by time shenanigans.

An example would be both God of War and Marvel's Nine Realms, as in Marvel each timeline hold their own version of the Nine Realms, while in God of War Thor's BFR Jormungandr from Asgard to Midgard back in time.

Also Ben 10 work in the same way, since each timeline has their own Null Void, Ledgerdomain and etc.

 

[Aachintya31]

Problem its that by the standard of the site we still treat those as Low 2-C even when they all equally affected by time shenanigans.

No. RoSAT was the only reason each universe was considered Low 2-C even on the verse's page.

An example would be both God of War and Marvel's Nine Realms, as in Marvel each timeline hold their own version of the Nine Realms, while in God of War Thor's BFR Jormungandr from Asgard to Midgard back in time.
Also Ben 10 work in the same way, since each timeline has their own Null Void, Ledgerdomain and etc.

We default each universe Low 2-C unless proven otherwise.

 

[Reiner04]

Problem its that by the standard of the site we still treat those as Low 2-C even when they all equally affected by time shenanigans.

An example would be both God of War and Marvel's Nine Realms, as in Marvel each timeline hold their own version of the Nine Realms, while in God of War Thor's BFR Jormungandr from Asgard to Midgard back in time.

Also Ben 10 work in the same way, since each timeline has their own Null Void, Ledgerdomain and etc.

Those type of universes are also by default consider Low 2-C structures, even if they exist within a timeline.

I mean its the reason why Ben 10 Cosmology had been upgraded to 2-A, since an universe/timeline hold an infinite number of realities, otherwise it would have been just High 3-A/Low 2-C.

No, in this case, we don't, ben 10 has evidenced those dimensions to be separate spacetime's that are separate by dimensional barrier, that is why those are low 2C structures. DB universes hasn't shown it and are infact affected by time travel all together.

 

[Reiner04]

No. RoSAT was the only reason each universe was considered Low 2-C even on the verse's page.

^

 

[Reiner04]

Legerdemain is a separate dimension where timeflows differently,nullvoid is a separate dimension where timeflows differently and are separated by dimensional barrier of time and space, Rex dimension is a parallel dimension that are separated by spacetime and has been compared to the likes of nullvoid and ledger domain, Dimension12 is pandimensional where time stood still.

So the case is far different from anything that ben 10 has and forget about them being separate spacetime's. Ben 10 has actual evidences that these dimensions are within same universe and has been evident many times. but we are debating that verse and leaving this verse where there is absolutely 0 evidence for RoSaT being 8nside timeline and timeline to be 2C? Nah, that's double standard not gonna work.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

1. You said every timeline has its time ring.
2. I said okay, every timeline does.
3. You said but RoSaT doesn't.
4. I asked for proof.
5. You are saying we didn't seen RoSaT timeline time ring so that means it doesn't have? Dragonball is not 2B cosmology that means?

Burden of proof is on you. For proving that the timeline timerings that hasn't been shown implies that they're not timelines.

Dragon Ball works with Quantum Mechanics Theory ;-;

Just a question what onus what do you talk so much?

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far among knowledgeable members and our staff? Also, which staff members think what here so far?

 

[Reiner04]

What are the conclusions here so far among knowledgeable members and our staff? Also, which staff members think what here so far?

Agree with downgrade: @Theglassman12 , @Planck69 , @Maverick_Zero_X

Disagree: @DarkDragonMedeus