Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero | 2-C Goten, Trunks, Gotenks, and Majin Buu

[CloverDragon03]

That was mostly cuz he had to try to convince Vegeta to fuse

I mean before Vegeta showed up. I recall Goku hiding behind a jellybean looking thing only to get slashed along with it by Janemba's sword

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think it does matter tho. I don't think how fusions work in a completely different canon should dictate how it should work in another canon. It would preferably be from the same canon.

They all follow the same principles, so there's hardly a reason to just discard it

 

[LaserPrecision]

They all follow the same principles, so there's hardly a reason to just discard it

I think if we accepted that, we can open the floodgates to all series on the wiki being able to do the same. Using examples from other canons of a series to help with their CRT about the main canon (Just one random example; using Archie for Game scaling CRT purposes). Which I think is a no-no. But maybe that's just me. Just find it kinda irking.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Also yeah the wiki doesn't do cross continuity scaling without fair reason

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also yeah the wiki doesn't do cross continuity scaling without fair reason

My fair reason is that it reinforces something visible in the main canon

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Doesn't reinforce much of anything considering its just Veku getting completely toyed with for 30 minutes without Janemba even at least using the Dimension Sword, something he used on Goku

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Nobody should be using things from the Z Movies. Full stop. I don't know why this is even being brought up when we don't even tolerate the DBS manga and DBS anime having cross-continuity scaling. Along with that, I'm getting this impression some people don't know that Android 18 is 2-C. So any statement or scaling with her is...well, it's with a 2-C character.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Nobody should be using things from the Z Movies. Full stop. I don't know why this is even being brought up when we don't even tolerate the DBS manga and DBS anime having cross-continuity scaling. Along with that, I'm getting this impression some people don't know that Android 18 is 2-C. So any statement or scaling with her is...well, it's with a 2-C character.

That's my thing. I don't believe Goten and Trunks scale to 18

Also there's no scaling between them at all. Just a recognition of patterns across Dragon Ball media

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Veku getting toyed with for 30 minutes is not the same as Fat Gotenks being unharmed by hits from serious 2-C characters

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That's my thing. I don't believe Goten and Trunks scale to 18

Also there's no scaling between them at all. Just a recognition of patterns across Dragon Ball media

You don't believe. Which is the entire reason people refuse to accept this revision. Because the entire idea that Goten and Trunks are 2-C is too difficult to accept. If you look at the logic objectively, it all holds up. I don't blame you for struggling to accept it because it is stupid but that's the nature of DBS powerscaling.

As for the latter half, nope. We can't do that at all. 'Patterns' across DB media has never been accepted as logical basis for a revision. If we could use that, the entire verse would look very very different on the wiki.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Also if it was Gamma 1's strength then why even use Gotenks as a projectile at all? Cell Max was off guard so Gamma 1 very well could've shot at his weak point if he's strong enough to damage it, as you've been saying

 

[CloverDragon03]

You don't believe. Which is the entire reason people refuse to accept this revision. Because the entire idea that Goten and Trunks are 2-C is too difficult to accept. If you look at the logic objectively, it all holds up. I don't blame you for struggling to accept it because it is stupid but that's the nature of DBS powerscaling.

No it's legit just unsupported. You'd be better off trying to make Krillin 2-C and have Goten and Trunks scale above him. This is giving very holier-than-thou vibes

Also a lot of power scaling is subjective so don't even try that "objectively" stuff

As for the latter half, nope. We can't do that at all. 'Patterns' across DB media has never been accepted as logical basis for a revision. If we could use that, the entire verse would look very very different on the wiki.

I'm not even gonna lie. That's ridiculous

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also if it was Gamma 1's strength then why even use Gotenks as a projectile at all? Cell Max was off guard so Gamma 1 very well could've shot at his weak point if he's strong enough to damage it, as you've been saying

Because it's a gag that's why, the whole moment is a gag and Gotenks was being ping-ponged around the whole time

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Considering it resulted in the damaging of Cell Max's weak point, it was very clearly not just a mere gag

 

[CloverDragon03]

Considering it resulted in the damaging of Cell Max's weak point, it was very clearly not just a mere gag

Did you forget that people in Dragon Ball gaining the upper hand or even winning through some form of a gag is far from new?

Even as recently as the Tournament of Power, Krillin eliminates that one blind Universe 4 dude by throwing his stinky shoe at him

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

You don't believe. Which is the entire reason people refuse to accept this revision. Because the entire idea that Goten and Trunks are 2-C is too difficult to accept. If you look at the logic objectively, it all holds up. I don't blame you for struggling to accept it because it is stupid but that's the nature of DBS powerscaling.

As for the latter half, nope. We can't do that at all. 'Patterns' across DB media has never been accepted as logical basis for a revision. If we could use that, the entire verse would look very very different on the wiki.

The movies are stated and accepted to other MWI timelines since theyre stated to be “parallel worlds” which is also what timelines in the manga are called

though it is different here since Janemba was toying with Veku whereas cell max wasn’t

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Even as recently as the Tournament of Power, Krillin eliminates that one blind Universe 4 dude by throwing his stinky shoe at him

Even that was Krillin using a clever tactic against an enemy who had a keen sense of smell they used to fight. Also, that did n it eliminate him. Go next

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

The movies are stated and accepted to other MWI timelines since theyre stated to be “parallel worlds” which is also what timelines in the manga are called

That's for the cosmology

 

[CloverDragon03]

The movies are stated and accepted to other MWI timelines since theyre stated to be “parallel worlds” which is also what timelines in the manga are called

though it is different here since Janemba was toying with Veku whereas cell max wasn’t

He was toying with SSJ3 Goku too so my point stands

 

[CloverDragon03]

Even that was Krillin using a clever tactic against an enemy who had a keen sense of smell they used to fight. Go next

...Okay?

That's still a gag moment, clever or not. Gotenks being launched by Gamma 1 into Cell Max was a clever move as well, doesn't mean it's not a gag

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

He was toying with SSJ3 Goku too so my point stands

Being toyed with and then getting finished off by a dura neg sword is not the same as getting toyed with for 30 minutes without the same sword. There's no scaling there

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

...Okay?

That's still a gag moment, clever or not. Gotenks being launched by Gamma 1 into Cell Max was a clever move as well, doesn't mean it's not a gag

If the 'clever move' is using Gotenks as a projectile...as opposed to just using one's own strength which you suggest is enough

 

[CloverDragon03]

If the 'clever move' is using Gotenks as a projectile...as opposed to just using one's own strength of which you say is enough

Between the fusion happening, the shock of the fusion failing, and the added shock of fat Gotenks being unable to go Super Saiyan, literally everyone had stopped moving. Everyone started attacking again when Gotenks got launched by Cell Max

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Everyone started attacking again when Gotenks got launched by Cell Max

And in that would be an opportunity for one of the Gammas to just shoot at Cell Max's weak point since he was off guard. But they don't, as using Gotenks was the viable option there, as suggested by Piccolo

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No it's legit just unsupported. You'd be better off trying to make Krillin 2-C and have Goten and Trunks scale above him. This is giving very holier-than-thou vibes

Also a lot of power scaling is subjective so don't even try that "objectively" stuff

It isn't unsupported. You can see the fight, you can see how the characters fair and you can see how every single one of them is 2-C barring Krillin, who is depicted as out of his element. The logic you are using to argue against it is from a non-canon Z movie and you are now trying to argue we should dismiss it because you think it's just a gag (Where did we hear that from before? Oh right, Freeza vs Broly.)

I unironically, genuinely, think you just can't accept the scaling because of how stupid it is.

I'm not even gonna lie. That's ridiculous

Well, I can't think of a single instance where we used patterns in the DB franchise in a revision and it was accepted. Do you have any examples?

The movies are stated and accepted to other MWI timelines since theyre stated to be “parallel worlds” which is also what timelines in the manga are called

though it is different here since Janemba was toying with Veku whereas cell max wasn’t

And we still don't get revisions passed on the premise of cross-world feats, scaling, patterns, etc. I've seen multiple threads be rejected because that logic isn't accepted.

Either way, I'm tuning out for a day. Clover is already debating multiple people as it is and I want to see what other arguments can be made.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Either way, I'm tuning out for a day.

Same, I'm getting tired of this

 

[CloverDragon03]

It isn't unsupported.

I'll be the judge of that

You can see the fight, you can see how the characters fair and you can see how every single one of them is 2-C barring Krillin, who is depicted as out of his element

What's there to see? Them getting bodied by Cell Max? The "proof" involves:

• 18 supposedly about to be killed by Cell Max (cannot be proven)
• Confidence scaling (bad metric)

Supposedly they do better than 18 but again, that's not supported. Just because Cell Max didn't make the exact same motion toward Goten and Trunks that he did to 18, doesn't mean they did better

The logic you are using to argue against it is from a non-canon Z movie

I find it dumb that you can't do this but if that's the case, fine, be my guest

and you are now trying to argue we should dismiss it because you think it's just a gag (Where did we hear that from before? Oh right, Freeza vs Broly.)

That's actually not what I'm arguing at all. It being a gag was my response to Sir Marvelous's question of "Why didn't Gamma 1 just attack Cell Max himself?" The answer is that the whole gag is them knocking Gotenks around.

The fact remains that Gamma 1 knocking Gotenks hard enough to crack Cell Max's weak point is a feat for Gamma 1, not for Gotenks

I unironically, genuinely, think you just can't accept the scaling because of how stupid it is.

Think what you want, but that's not exactly a way to just dismiss any counterarguments.

This isn't even mentioning how Gotenks has zero AP feats that would put him at a comparable level to his durability (especially given he just taunts Cell Max for most of the fight afterwards)

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Gotenks as i said doesn't scale and him doing anything to Cell max was simply a Gag feat outlier

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Wait a minute, they’re being scaled to GoD tier and two Macrocosm combined GoD tier 2-C?

I’m all for arguing 2-C him and her by scaling to BoG Base Goku, but to the GoDs?

 

[Omegas03]

I'll gotta admit Base Goten and Trunks scaling to Base Gohan is iffy and still needs a bit more evidence, not completely disagreeing with 2-C bc they should still scale above 18.

agreeing with Buu and Fat Gotenks being 2-C.

we need more staff input

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I'll gotta admit Base Goten and Trunks scaling to Base Gohan is iffy and still needs a bit more evidence, not completely disagreeing with 2-C bc they should still scale above 18.

agreeing with Buu and Fat Gotenks being 2-C.

we need more staff input

Yeah I agree with this

Base Goten and trunks scaling above 18 is fine

and Buu being 2-C for Piccolo thinking the gammas would be tough to beat without Goku and Vegeta even though he’d still have 18 and Gohan

 

[Omegas03]

Bump

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Bump

 

[Nierre]

bump

 

[SlendVeny]

It takes no effort to write a story that doesn't power creep (for no reason)
and doesn't make it the "Goku and Vegeta show"

Seriously, just "Gohan decided to train with Whis"
any justification would suffice.​

I think maybe it's like on Namek, where the person who had their Potential Unleashed continued to grow and grow until a set level.

 

[Omegas03]

Bump

 

[TiltedFN]

well this got pushed to the side lol, BUMP

 

[AwkguyDB]

If my thread gets accepted then it might work out

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah, I agree with this

 

[GarrixianXD]

Seems like this hasn't been concluded yet.