Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero | 2-C Goten, Trunks, Gotenks, and Majin Buu

[LaserPrecision]

At best that's durability, which would make sense since Fat Gotenks survived several attacks from Cell Max, but even then that's iffy

I mean, at the very least, as you said, shouldn't he have 2-C durability? Not only did he withstand hits from Cell Max, survive hitting Cell Max's head (Newton's law dictates his durability would need to be comparable to tank that), AND withstood the spikes that were 2-C for him to be able to hurt Cell Max? I don't think that'd be iffy tbh.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Unless we have reason to believe Gotenks is a stonewall, his AP should be on the same level

Also yeah the fact that he wasn't even hurt by getting spiked like a volleyball should say a lot in tandem with the fact that it was his strike that did the damage in the end

 

[Kroneii1]

I agree

 

[LaserPrecision]

Unless we have reason to believe Gotenks is a stonewall, his AP should be on the same level

Also yeah the fact that he wasn't even hurt by getting spiked like a volleyball should say a lot in tandem with the fact that it was his strike that did the damage in the end

I mean, doesn't Dragon Ball do Ki scaling? If Gotenks durability is Tier 2, I agree that his AP would have to be of a comparable level. That's how Ki's generally worked since Z. With the exception of character's who specialize in a certain field (i.e. Burter and Dyspo with their speed).

 

[CloverDragon03]

Unless we have reason to believe Gotenks is a stonewall, his AP should be on the same level

My reason to believe that is that he's a big boi

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I mean, doesn't Dragon Ball do Ki scaling? If Gotenks durability is Tier 2, I agree that his AP would have to be of a comparable level. That's how Ki's generally worked since Z. With the exception of character's who specialize in a certain field (i.e. Burter and Dyspo with their speed).

Yes, that's what I was implying

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

My reason to believe that is that he's a big boi

I had the same thought

 

[LaserPrecision]

My reason to believe that is that he's a big boi

I mean, I can buy that. But I think there would need to be precedent. Like other instances of Fat Fusion being a stonewall. A statement would be preferred, but feats are better than nothing. But I think outright scaling would be fine.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, I can buy that. But I think there would need to be precedent. Like other instances of Fat Fusion being a stonewall. A statement would be preferred, but feats are better than nothing. But I think outright scaling would be fine.

Base Veku took multiple hits from Janemba GG

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Base Veku took multiple hits from Janemba GG

Still not a stonewall

VEKU SWEEP

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes, agreed FRA. And I assure you that the manga version will have even greater justifications.

 

[CloverDragon03]

VEKU SWEEP

Veku only tripped him come on now

 

[GarrixianXD]

Majin Buu definitely deserves a 2-Crating as well as Gotenks though we haven’t seen much action with Trunks and Goten alone unfused

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

So Goten and Trunks in their Base Forms alone can solo their daddies even as Super Saiyan Gods due to them scaling to 2 macrocosms, while Goku and Vegeta only scales to 2 macrocosms as a Super Saiyan Blues

So, we are accepting Base Goten and Base Trunks being on the same ballpark as Base Piccolo and Base Gohan or Ultimate Piccolo and SSJ Gohan?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Disagree about Gotenks it was made pretty clear that him cracking Cell max weakspot was due to Cell max + Ultimate Piccolo + Android 18 + Gotenks combined power. It's also worth mentioning that this could Very well be a gag feat or simply an outlier.

Goten and Trunks definitely doesn't scale they weren't doing shit against Cell max, at best they'll be 4-B because they performed better than 18 and Krillin but that's it.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

It should also be noted that due to the fact that Cell max has no mind then he can't use his full power constantly which should explain why he was being tagged by characters far weaker than him

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So Goten and Trunks in their Base Forms alone can solo their daddies even as Super Saiyan Gods due to them scaling to 2 macrocosms, while Goku and Vegeta only scales to 2 macrocosms as a Super Saiyan Blues

So, we are accepting Base Goten and Base Trunks being on the same ballpark as Base Piccolo and Base Gohan or Ultimate Piccolo and SSJ Gohan?

Safest bet would be Base Piccolo and Base Gohan but they likely scale above them.

Disagree about Gotenks it was made pretty clear that him cracking Cell max weakspot was due to Cell max + Ultimate Piccolo + Android 18 + Gotenks combined power. It's also worth mentioning that this could Very well be a gag feat or simply an outlier.

Goten and Trunks definitely doesn't scale they weren't doing shit against Cell max, at best they'll be 4-B because they performed better than 18 and Krillin but that's it.

Gotenks would need the durability and in DB, Durability = AP because of how Ki works. Gotenks was flung around and smashed into Cell Max's head with greater potency than Ultimate Piccolo's ki wave. Therefore Gotenks's durability > Ultimate Piccolo's AP, so Gotenks > Ultimate Piccolo.

And you're mistaken. Android 18 is 2-C, just like Gohan, Piccolo and the Gammas. People claiming they would only be 4-B and that them being 2-C is an 'outlier' is purely based on Krillin being there. Krillin who is consistently depicted as out of his element, only landing attacks via surprise and also when the 2-C A18 nearly died while Goten and Trunks had no issues.

It should also be noted that due to the fact that Cell max has no mind then he can't use his full power constantly which should explain why he was being tagged by characters far weaker than him

If this were the case then Ultimate Gohan would have killed Cell Max very easily when Cell Max's power went down or Ultimate Piccolo or Gamma 1 or Gamma 2, so your idea is that Krillin, A18, Goten and Trunks were just really really lucky or somehow way more skilled than the other four far stronger fighters. Yeah, to me that's ridiculous. It's clear Cell Max was always above Ultimate Gohan or even Orange Piccolo. No matter how uncontrolled he was.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Safest bet would be Base Piccolo and Base Gohan but they likely scale above them.

Ok, you have to admit that this of all things is too ridiculous to not be put into question.

If this were the case then Ultimate Gohan would have killed Cell Max very easily when Cell Max's power went down or Ultimate Piccolo or Gamma 1 or Gamma 2, so your idea is that Krillin, A18, Goten and Trunks were just really really lucky or somehow way more skilled than the other four far stronger fighters. Yeah, to me that's ridiculous. It's clear Cell Max was always above Ultimate Gohan or even Orange Piccolo. No matter how uncontrolled he was.

People forget about fiction showing groups of characters fighting individuals a world of power above them

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Gotenks would need the durability and in DB, Durability = AP because of how Ki works.

I want to remind everybody real quick that training one's body separate from their Ki is a real thing.

Carry on.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I want to remind everybody real quick that training one's body separate from their Ki is a real thing.

Carry on.

Goten is a gamer

that mf ain't getting any physical exercise

 

[Omegas03]

The PS is so shit Goten and Trunks becoming 2 macrocosm 2-C by doing absolutely nothing and even forgetting how to fuse properly

Gohan becomes UI+ tier by studying

 

[Omegas03]

bet that if Gotenks wasn't failed by logic he woulda have soloed everyone that was there lmaoooo

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I think it is necessary to add that Goten and Trunks can fight against all the Cell jr who helped N 17 to reach the power of a Goku SSJ3 BoToP

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

EDIT: it's so ******* funny to think Base Goten would probably shitstomp initial ToP SSBKKx20 Goku due to sheer scaling

Honest reaction

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Ok, you have to admit that this of all things is too ridiculous to not be put into question.

People forget about fiction showing groups of characters fighting individuals a world of power above them

Either way, even if we assumed Cell Max was weakening at points or it was just team effort, Goten and Trunks were depicted as fighting just fine and only struggling with the Fusion Dance whereas A18 nearly died and Krillin was depicted as out of his element.

When we see Goten and Trunks fight, who is it with? Super Saiyan Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo. And they are depicted as keeping up just fine with no visible issues, again not like A18 or Krillin. At no point does the narrative indicate they were out of their element, at risk of dying or lagging behind the others at all.

And it's definitely worth noting that:

• Gohan
• Piccolo
• A18
• Gamma 1
• Gamma 2
• Cell Max

Are all 2-C. The only person who definitely isn't 2-C is Krillin who we clearly see terrified and struggling to work up confidence to even try to fight. Isn't it a little weird that Goten and Trunks would be arbitrarily scaled to Krillin when they weren't depicted as afraid or struggling to keep up? Rather than the 6 2-Cs they kept up with?

I want to remind everybody real quick that training one's body separate from their Ki is a real thing.

Carry on.

Yeah and this is Failed Gotenks, which is arguably a weak body version of Gotenks, having the durability to crack Cell Max's head and he isn't even able to transform. Cell Max's head having durability scaling above Ultimate Piccolo. Along with that, Ki serves as a multiplier on top of your body. Ki reinforces what you have. In other words if Failed Gotenks has 2-C durability with his body alone, then he could reinforce that with Ki to make it exponentially stronger. So him being 2-C becomes an even stronger argument.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The PS is so shit Goten and Trunks becoming 2 macrocosm 2-C by doing absolutely nothing and even forgetting how to fuse properly

Gohan becomes UI+ tier by studying

Gohan became the strongest by studying biology, Goten and Trunks went to a private school and became 2-C in base form. The logic is clear, education is the path to ultimate power.

 

[AwkguyDB]

I agree with the op

 

[CloverDragon03]

So to actually fully address the OP:

Goten and Trunks
Goten and Trunks are confident that they can help against Cell Max.

For comparison, 18 is nowhere near as confident.

Krillin doesn't even consider the idea.

Confidence scaling is very flawed, especially in this case because:

1. It's unknown if they can even sense Cell Max's energy due to him being an android
2. They're headstrong kids who are known to be reckless and overconfident.

Additionally, Cell Max powering up threw Krillin off of the ground, but didn't do that to Goten nor Trunks.

This just means Goten and Trunks > Krillin, which I agree with

The boys can fight competently against Cell Max better than 18, who at one point was nearly killed.


This proves they're above 18 and Krillin.

This just shows 18 about to be attacked by Cell Max, I don't see anything about killing here.

Also the pics you sent of Goten and Trunks fighting him... we literally see 18 fighting competently against him as well so this is a moot point.

They even fight competently alongside Gohan and Piccolo.

Showing them next to other guys doesn't imply anything...

A failed Gotenks was able to damage Cell Max's weak point, something that Potential Unleashed Piccolo couldn't do.

This should put Base Goten and Trunks at 2-C. Since their fusion, who shouldn't be worlds stronger than them as Super Saiyans due to being a failed fusion, is stronger than Potential Unleashed Piccolo, and because they can maintain a fight against Cell Max in a comparable manner to Gohan and Piccolo without any particular trouble (as opposed to 18 who nearly got killed), its reasonable to assume that individually they're about as strong as Base Gohan.

See my entire point on how this was the result of Gotenks being ping-ponged by guys significantly stronger than him. Gamma 1 spiked him into Cell Max, which just means Gamma 1 > Ultimate Piccolo, which is very much true. At best this is 2-C durability because fat failed fusions have a precedent of being able to take a bunch of hits from stronger opponents

So yeah, needless to say I find this pretty unsupported

Majin Buu
In the same scene that Piccolo talks about the threat of the Gamma Androids, he implies that Majin Buu would be able to fight against them.

Buu should be outright 2-C. If not, then possibly/likely 2-C

This ended up being more supported than the entire Goten and Trunks section. I actually agree with this

 

[Eseseso]

We should focus on making Tien, Krillin, and Roshi 2-C first.

But while I agree with Buu being 2-C, I'm neutral but leaning disagree on the other stuff FRA.

 

[CloverDragon03]

We should focus on making Tien, Krillin, and Roshi 2-C first.

Literally, like that would just make Goten and Trunks 2-C by default

 

[Omegas03]

Everyone and their mothers is 2-C at this point.

I still vehemently disagree with the humans scaling to it but eh

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

So to actually fully address the OP:

Confidence scaling is very flawed, especially in this case because:

1. It's unknown if they can even sense Cell Max's energy due to him being an android
2. They're headstrong kids who are known to be reckless and overconfident.

• Cell Max is a bio-android
• Goten sensed Cell Max
• Their confidence was evidently not misplaced considering we actually see them keep up with the 2 macrocosm 2-C guys without any particular trouble

This just shows 18 about to be attacked by Cell Max, I don't see anything about killing here.

Also the pics you sent of Goten and Trunks fighting him... we literally see 18 fighting competently against him as well so this is a moot point.

We barely see her do anything the entire fight and one of the only things we see her do is almost get killed. Rewatch the fight

Showing them next to other guys doesn't imply anything...

The fact that they don't lag behind the guys who are actually 2 macrocosms 2-C is pretty damning in tandem with the fact that Krillin only does anything via surprise attacks and that 18 doesn't do much better than Krillin and even nearly gets killed. Also their fusion

See my entire point on how this was the result of Gotenks being ping-ponged by guys significantly stronger than him. Gamma 1 spiked him into Cell Max, which just means Gamma 1 > Ultimate Piccolo, which is very much true.

1. He isn't at all harmed by getting ping ponged. And he has the durability to survive landing the strike on Cell Max. Newton's law
2. After getting spiked we see him take control of his flight path which implies it was mostly him
3. Piccolo saying that it was the fusion that did it
4. Gamma 1 isn't so much stronger than Ultimate Piccolo that he'd be able to damage Cell Max's weak point. This supports Piccolo specifically calling out the fusion

At best this is 2-C durability because fat failed fusions have a precedent of being able to take a bunch of hits from stronger opponents

No they don't. Do NOT bring Veku vs Super Janemba into this. Janemba was toying with the Saiyans up until the successful fusion

 

[Nullflowerblush]

• Cell Max is a bio-android

The original Cell was a synthetic being created by specializing the cells of various warriors. Its body was wholly biological and organic.

Cell Max is a mechanical being, with gears, wires, and paints, and the only things that the two have in common is their appearance, because Dr. Hedo designed Max after the blueprints of the original.

• Goten sensed Cell Max

Everybody heard Cell Max.

• Their confidence was evidently not misplaced considering we actually see them keep up with the 2 macrocosm 2-C guys without any particular trouble

"X fought alongside Y, which means X scales to Y" is not how scaling works.

We barely see her do anything the entire fight and one of the only things we see her do is almost get killed. Rewatch the fight

Did Cell Max lunge at any of the others?

 

[CloverDragon03]

• Cell Max is a bio-android
• Goten sensed Cell Max
• Their confidence was evidently not misplaced considering we actually see them keep up with the 2 macrocosm 2-C guys without any particular trouble

"Sensed"? Bro, anyone could hear a guttural scream like Cell Max's

Also no, being shown next to them does not mean being comparable

We barely see her do anything the entire fight and one of the only things we see her do is almost get killed. Rewatch the fight

They all do the same thing of firing off ki blasts that hardly do anything to Cell Max. Prove she was almost killed. All we know is that Cell Max was about to grab her from the looks of things, then Krillin came in

The fact that they don't lag behind the guys who are actually 2 macrocosms 2-C is pretty damning in tandem with the fact that Krillin only does anything via surprise attacks and that 18 doesn't do much better than Krillin and even nearly gets killed. Also their fusion

Stop saying 18 was nearly killed. You haven't substantiated this. All we see is him about to grab her. And he doesn't do this to anyone else so you can't reasonably say he couldn't have.

Also it's hard to say what you're claiming is actually evidence when a whopping none of them did anything to Cell Max. They all fired blasts. They all didn't do shit.

1. He isn't at all harmed by getting ping ponged. And he has the durability to survive landing the strike on Cell Max. Newton's law
2. After getting spiked we see him take control of his flight path which implies it was mostly him
3. Piccolo saying that it was the fusion that did it
4. Gamma 1 isn't so much stronger than Ultimate Piccolo that he'd be able to damage Cell Max's weak point. This supports Piccolo specifically calling out the fusion

1. That just means more for his durability
2. He literally is just screaming. Why would he "take control" when he's already heading for Cell Max's head.
3. He just says the fusion "came in handy," which... yeah obviously it did in this case. Again, if I throw you into something, that's not your power, it's my power to transfer that much energy to you.
4. Proof?

No they don't. Do NOT bring Veku vs Super Janemba into this. Janemba was toying with the Saiyans up until the successful fusion

Veku was literally taking hits better than SSJ3 Goku, in fact taking more than he did. Yet he couldn't actually damage Janemba. Clearly his durability > his AP

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

The original Cell was a synthetic being created by specializing the cells of various warriors. Its body was wholly biological and organic.

Cell Max is a mechanical being, with gears, wires, and paints, and the only things that the two have in common is their appearance, because Dr. Hedo designed Max after the blueprints of the original.

Cell Max has biological innards

Everybody heard Cell Max.

Fair point. But he's still clearly a biological being, so he most definitely has a life force to sense

"X fought alongside Y, which means X scales to Y" is not how scaling works.

Good thing I'm using it in tandem with other things

Did Cell Max lunge at any of the others?

Multiple times throughout the battle

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

4. Proof?

Because Ultimate Piccolo fought a Gamma and it wasn't a DRASTIC difference

Veku was literally taking hits better than SSJ3 Goku, in fact taking more than he did. Yet he couldn't actually damage Janemba. Clearly his durability > his AP

If getting severely injured by every attack and running for his life in a montage is taking hits better than another, sure...

 

[LaserPrecision]

Because Ultimate Piccolo fought a Gamma and it wasn't a DRASTIC difference

If getting severely injured by every attack and running for his life in a montage is taking hits better than another, sure...

Tbf, I dunno if using the Janemba movie for precedent works given it's not canon to the Super timeline (Unless there was some CRT I missed that made the two canon to one another, if so, mb)

 

[CloverDragon03]

Because Ultimate Piccolo fought a Gamma and it wasn't a DRASTIC difference

Again I must bring up Gamma 2 beginning to body Ultimate Piccolo after struggling to come to terms with what to believe, forcing Piccolo to go Orange

If getting severely injured by every attack and running for his life in a montage is taking hits better than another, sure...

Goku was literally hiding from Janemba too wdym-

Tbf, I dunno if using the Janemba movie for precedent works given it's not canon to the Super timeline (Unless there was some CRT I missed that made the two canon to one another, if so, mb)

Doesn't matter. It's a general scaling precedent, canon or not

 

[LaserPrecision]

Doesn't matter. It's a general scaling precedent, canon or not

I think it does matter tho. I don't think how fusions work in a completely different canon should dictate how it should work in another canon. It would preferably be from the same canon.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Goku was literally hiding from Janemba too wdym-

That was mostly cuz he had to try to convince Vegeta to fuse