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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 82

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Honestly it's extremely questionable at this point. I believe there is an authoritive statement out there that Goku is vastly stronger than Vegeta which in all actuality if you think about it, was in a way explained via ending of the ToP where Base Goku was competing with a much weaker but still formidable Jiren who was a threat to Android 17 who didn't lose energy at all in regards to strength and even Golden Frieza for bit and dropped Frieza back to his Final Form. HOWEVER a serious jump like that is more than likely not the case and it was probably just forgotten that 17 just competed with Blue level characters just a couple of episodes before. Goku and Vegeta were shown comparable to each other in the training sequence of the film. Broly was probably just surpassing the supressed amount of power Vegeta was dishing out. It's not like Vegeta was dominated by Broly or anything he was just having a bit of trouble with the power he was dishing out. If Vegeta really was that weak compared to Goku, why would he even bother try to help him out at the end, insisting Goku would need his help?

In summary I believe the SSG Vegeta vs Broly fight could be logically deduced to Vegeta using a set amount of power, or that he was still holding back while fighting Broly.
 
ZERO7772 said:
They are still seen as equals in Blue though? Not to mention fusion dance requires both fuses to be around the same level and nowhere it's seen that Goku has to lower his power to match Vegeta's
This is not any different than base Goku doing better against Hit than Base Vegeta.
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Except they aren't.

All they are shown to do is combine beam attacks to create a stronger one. You know who else combine their energies with Goku? Gohan and Goten in the Family Kamehameha - does that mean that Goten & Gohan = Goku? No, it doesn't. That's absurd.

And the fusion dance requires the two fusses to match their power levels with one another - it doesn't require them to be "around the same level". That's headcanon.


And there is a massive difference between Base Goku doing better than Blue Vegeta against Hit than him doing better against Broly.

Namely the fact that Hit and the Saiyans were in a tournament in which killing wasn't allowed. Broly isn't Hit - he doesn't have control over his power, or his growth, and he definitely isn't holding back because he is a complete ******* beserker.

There also wasn't outside information stating that Vegeta was struggling to catch up with Goku during that arc.

Now if you want to say it's all a complete ******* outlier - that's fine, but don't act the evidence doesn't exist.
 
According to Herms' translations, Vegeta is "desperately trying to catch up" to Goku. I'm not entirely sure on the context, however.

Apparently, this implies Vegeta is a little weaker than Goku (w/o Kaioken) and Frieza during the Tournament of power, who are tied as the stronger. In my opinion, this doesn't make sense.

  • Prior to Goku refining Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken, Goku and Frieza are tied for the No. 1 spot on Team Universe 7 in terms of power.
 
>All they are shown to do is combine beam attacks to create a stronger one. You know who else combine their energies with Goku? Gohan and Goten in the Family Kamehameha - does that mean that Goten & Gohan = Goku? No, it doesn't. That's absurd.

If Vegeta was that much weaker than him jumping to help Goku wouldn't make sense, not to mention they take the exact same attacks from Broly and neither sustain any serious injury. Goten doesn't take punches meant for Gohan and get up your example is the off one.

>And the fusion dance requires the two fusses to match their power levels with one another - it doesn't require them to be "around the same level". That's headcanon.

I fail to see how that makes it any different. Nowhere it's stated that Goku had to lower his level to match Vegeta again.

>And there is a massive difference between Base Goku doing better than Blue Vegeta against Hit than him doing better against Broly.

Nah it's the same. If we go solely by what shown on screen then Base Goku was doing better against a powered up Ikari Broly than Vegeta did against a weaker versionn of Ikari Broly in SSG.

>Namely the fact that Hit and the Saiyans were in a tournament in which killing wasn't allowed. Broly isn't Hit

Pretty weak excuse. Hit knows exactly his power and how to control it so he doesn't hit vital point or put enough force to kill a person, just because he didn't actively try to kill them doesn't mean he wasn't throwing serious punches

>There also wasn't outside information stating that Vegeta was struggling to catch up with Goku during that arc.

Absolutely worthless statment from movie director that doesn't mean munch for canon of the story. Vegeta and Goku were sparring after the ToP in their Blue form which is the justification used for Vegeta's low 2-C rating in his Blue form, there is absolutely no indication or any reasonable reason as to why Goku would make such a leap in power ahead of Vegeta. If you are gonna use generic excuses like "Goku was holding back" then you better make a CRT right now asking for Vegeta to be downgraded and call everything he did in Broly movie as Outlier.

>Now if you want to say it's all a complete ******* outlier - that's fine, but don't act the doesn't exist.

It IS outlier and the "evidence" are rather weak one. All you have is some inconsistent fight segment and some line from movie staff and you conclude it's true.

Now don't get me wrong, I agree that Goku is stronger than Vegeta but not to THAT extent.
 
"Vegeta struggling to keep up with Goku"

In his first appearance, Vegeta only says that he's training because of Freeza. The movie director also said that Goku is close to becoming a god, which is simply wrong.

The director is talking about power level, and Goku is nowhere near a GoD. He can't be talking about Goku actually becoming an "official god" because Goku literally refuses to become one in his first minutes into the movie.

There's no way the gap between them to be this huge because both train equally hard, and doing the same hard training never created this gap in the entire DBS.

To be honest, Vegeta did a lot better than Freeza in the ToP, even as a normal SSJB.
 
ArgosaxDespair said:
There's no way the gap between them to be this huge because both train equally hard, and doing the same hard training never created this gap in the entire DBS.

To be honest, Vegeta did a lot better than Freeza in the ToP, even as a normal SSJB.
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Except Goku broke his limits multiple times in the ToP, whereas Vegeta broke his limits only once. Claiming he didn't grow stronger from breaking his limits the third and fourth time, when he did the first and second time, would be a tad off.

You have more of a point when regarding the Manga but the movie, novel and interviews all indicate Vegeta is lagging behind Goku after the Tournament of Power for whatever reason. It could make some sense if it simply refers to Goku 'nearing Ultra Instinct' whereas Vegeta gave up on Ultra Instinct and is trying to find another method of power.

Regardless, we don't know anything except for Vegeta being behind Goku in some regard. Denial of the simple facts presented would be objectively incorrect.
 
This is the most basic thing Saiyans do. They only made Goku's limit-breaking major and more dramatic because of UI, and Vegeta himself also says that all Saiyans broke through their limits, so if Gohan broke trough his limits for doing nothing, obviously Vegeta also broke through his by merely fighting.

Except UI is not even mentioned during the movie. Also, it's a bit late to say that UI is only "close to a god".

Vegeta is behind Goku, that's a fact, but SSJG/SSJB Vegeta being only comparable to SSJ Goku? I don't think so, chief.
 
ArgosaxDespair said:
This is the most basic thing Saiyans do. They only made Goku's limit-breaking major and more dramatic because of UI, and Vegeta himself also says that all Saiyans broke through their limits, so if Gohan broke trough his limits for doing nothing, obviously Vegeta also broke through his by merely fighting.
Except UI is not even mentioned during the movie. Also, it's a bit late to say that UI is only "close to a god".

Vegeta is behind Goku, that's a fact, but SSJG/SSJB Vegeta being only comparable to SSJ Goku? I don't think so, chief.
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No, There is a clear difference made between just getting stronger and breaking your limit (which isn't limited to Saiyans as Jiren did it too), at least in the anime, breaking your limit is much bigger power up, has more implication (like purely refusing to die and unlocking UI) and has a symbolic value behind it (at least in Jiren's case, as was explained by an anime staff member); breaking your limit isn't a steady 'down to earth' increase, it's one gigantic jump made under specific circumanstance.

And Vegeta had only one of those while Goku had 3.
 
Vegeta himself says that basically all Saiyans broke through their limits in the ToP (Gohan, Cabba and Kefla). I never said it was limited to them, I said that this was the most basic thing for Saiyans since all of them did it according to the anime. Goku's limit-breaking were major and dramatic because of UI, the form in the epicenter of everything.

According to the anime, even Gohan broke through his limits by merely fighting. I don't think there's more symbolism and reason to break through your limits than your existence being at stake.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Can somebody check out this calc? The results are huge and over 110 trillion times baseline from what I'm getting.
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Meh, we use the observable universe as baseline, which make no sense since the universe is infinite going by most credible theory nowaday and that's how most writers probably think of their univers so i wouldn't reccommend paying any mind to calculation using that metric.
 
um funny question,

If Dr Slump and DB are in the same verse/continuity how come God gets a Possibly 2-C key for something that people wouldn't even consider Low 2-C in Dragon Ball?
 
Also ........Base Gohan (Chou)>Merged Zamasu (Chou)?

He stalemated Kefla who is the product of Caulifa and Kale the latter of which nearly eliminated Toppo and Golden Frieza who are relative to Completed Blue Goku who by the Zen Exhibition was stronger than Merged Zamasu.
 
Amexim said:
Aww shit. Then... Shouldn't Zeno scale? Being superior to God himself and all. Lmao
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THATS ALSO A GOOD POINT! But what I'm trying to get at or at least understand is how Living World, Heaven and Hell scale to Low Mutiversal in Dr Slump but only Universal or Universe+ in Dragon Ball. Seems like one should be upgraded or the other downgraded XD. Homie is Possibly 2-C for something BoG SSJG Goku and 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001% Beerus can do LOL.
 
ArgosaxDespair said:
Wasn't he using his ultimate form? I don't remember much of the manga
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He never once transformed and he has the look of his Anime Base Counterpart. On top of which unlike the anime there is no indication that Gohan went through the same training rather than just throw on a gi and joined the fight. However there's a possibility that Toyotaro believes Base = Ultimate.
 
AwkguyDB said:
Amexim said:
Aww shit. Then... Shouldn't Zeno scale? Being superior to God himself and all. Lmao
Click to expand...
THATS ALSO A GOOD POINT! But what I'm trying to get at or at least understand is how Living World, Heaven and Hell scale to Low Mutiversal in Dr Slump but only Universal or Universe+ in Dragon Ball. Seems like one should be upgraded or the other downgraded XD. Homie is Possibly 2-C for something BoG SSJG Goku and 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000001% Beerus can do LOL.
Click to expand...
The difference is people weren't ready to do as much mental gymnastic against Dr Slump as they do against dragonball.
 
Manga Gohan literally makes zero sense and I'm honestly confused by Toyotaro's direction with Gohan's training. If Gohan was just using Mystic, then that's fine but we have no real way of telling.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
What even is the context behind God's AP?
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As to quote his profile "possibly Low Multiverse level (Repeatedly claims to be the "total creator of everything", which would mean that he created the Universe, Heaven, and Hell)"

By this it's saying God is 2-C via being able to create the Macrocosm. This is even way before there were more than one universe established too so I am wondering what makes this 2-C or why we keep arguing that Dragon Ball has been 2-C since BoG, with evidence mind you, and characters like this are around this site with hardly any justification for their rating but are bumped to a much higher tier. It's not making VS look credible in my opinion.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Manga Gohan literally makes zero sense and I'm honestly confused by Toyotaro's direction with Gohan's training. If Gohan was just using Mystic, then that's fine but we have no real way of telling.
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Just wait until the next chapter where I guarantee he's gonna power up into Super Saiyan or for heavens sake Mystic ;)
 
REALLY have to wonder how Toyotaro would justify Gohan not one-shotting everyone if he can go Super Saiyan and wasn't using Mystic beforehand. Seriously, Gohan himself implies Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him yet his 'base' can apparently take down Kefla.
 
AwkguyDB said:
um funny question,
If Dr Slump and DB are in the same verse/continuity how come God gets a Possibly 2-C key for something that people wouldn't even consider Low 2-C in Dragon Ball?
Click to expand...
Is the article even referring to the DB macrocosm?
 
Zamasu Chan said:
^This. What is heaven and hell Dr. Slump?
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Litteraly the same as in DB, we haven't got any more info on that in Dr Slump.

People need to remember that Toriyama consider that all his story, barring a few exception, happen in the same univers.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Source?
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It come from the 'The World' artbook and 'the world of Akira Toriyama' exhibition.

IIRC, the world include Sandland, DB, Dr Slump, Neko Majin and Katsuakira or whatever (since a member of the galactic patrol show up and fight a guy called Vampiro)
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Anyway I think a Q&A thread is necessary for this topic.
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It could have been that when we decided not to treat heaven, hell, etc as 2-C, the edits weren't made in Dr Slump's pages due to oversight.
 
It could have been that when we decided not to treat heaven, hell, etc as 2-C, the edits weren't made in Dr Slump's pages due to oversight.

But why not change it though?
 
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