DBZ tier question

Not sure if this was brought up already but here i go. sorry if i explain things badly xd Big dbs fan but i have some small issues about tiers... it seems everyone who goes up against BASE/ssj2-3 goku gets scaled to universal why? im gonna go and guess that its the whole using reds power in base thing right?? ok then heres the issue with that

1- Anime wise goku base=red got recont the moment they started using RED again the whole "sayain beyond god" thing only worked cuz they didnt think they would readd red as a form till everyone wanted it back... So IMO gokus base isnt universal neither is his ssj forms .. only red-blue can be that tier . And if you wanna bring up the fact that they can still use saiyain beyond god.. thats fine but in the anime after frieza arc they never used it .. like in the manga when he uses it , it shows a red spirit showing you that its beyond god form.


2- Then we gotta understand that blue can go from 1% power to 100% due to its main ability for ki control so goku in blue isnt always at full power . Thats like saying its ok for krillain to be universal cuz he had a lil test kame wave with blue goku

3- In conclusion characters like frost shouldnt even touch universal , same with piccolo etc SS to galaxy would suit them best .

Goku being able to go Super Saiyan God doesn't debunk the Beyond God thing. He absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, it's not a transformation, and by that logic he wouldn't even be able to transform at all with that power active, yet he can still use regular Super Saiyan during his battle with Beerus.

That manga isn't canon to Super or its adaptation, it's a 3 chapter one-shot created to promote the film. It's outright called a standalone.

I can't even understand the second point. Goku can hold back in any form, so what?

Saiyan Beyond God only existed for the FnF movie. Super never mentions that Goku is using the power of SSG without transforming. He just adapted to that level in his Super Saiyan form. Goku far surpasses even that when he goes against Frieza.

ByAsura said:

Goku being able to go Super Saiyan God doesn't debunk the Beyond God thing. He absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, it's not a transformation, and by that logic he wouldn't even be able to transform at all with that power active, yet he can still use regular Super Saiyan during his battle with Beerus.
That manga isn't canon to Super or its adaptation, it's a 3 chapter one-shot created to promote the film.

I can't even understand the second point. Goku can hold back in any form, so what?

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dbs manga is canon but it dont 100% follow , also the 2nd point is just me saying his ability to hold back is much greater in blue than any other form due to that we cant always think hes at full power

for 1 you should touch up on the difference between the ritual of SSJG and the actual transformation.Goku not only absorbed the POWER of SSJG but he surpassed it in Base, keep in mind the power he absorbed is not to be confused with god ki. He did not retain or obtain his own God Ki till his training with Whis.

2. I agree with 2 but for the most part most fighters who are Universal are so because they actually scale to Blue. Take Android 17 and Gohan for example. 17 is Blue tier because he could keep up with Blue Goku while still holding back and Gohan was stated to push Goku into using Kaioken.

3. I actually 100% agree with. My personal bias, I believe no one on that team scales to Base Goku or Vegeta with the exception of Hit. Vegeta flat out no sold a hit from Cabba, an Enraged SSJ and while he too was SSJ that should mean that their Base should be the same thing. Frost, especially in the manga, was no threat to even Base Goku, in ,my belief Goku only went SSJ to push Frost to use his full power.

@Zezu I wasn't saying it's part of the DBS manga and therefore non-canon (even though this wiki uses the anime), I'm saying it was designed as a promotion for the movie and is non-canon in general.

We need evidence that he's holding back at all. Also, as I mentioned, anyone in the series can hold back.

AwkguyDB said:

for 1 you should touch up on the difference between the ritual of SSJG and the actual transformation.Goku not only absorbed the POWER of SSJG but he surpassed it in Base, keep in mind the power he absorbed is not to be confused with god ki. He did not retain or obtain his own God Ki till his training with Whis.
2. I agree with 2 but for the most part most fighters who are Universal are so because they actually scale to Blue. Take Android 17 and Gohan for example. 17 is Blue tier because he could keep up with Blue Goku while still holding back and Gohan was stated to push Goku into using Kaioken.

3. I actually 100% agree with. My personal bias, I believe no one on that team scales to Base Goku or Vegeta with the exception of Hit. Vegeta flat out no sold a hit from Cabba, an Enraged SSJ and while he too was SSJ that should mean that their Base should be the same thing. Frost, especially in the manga, was no threat to even Base Goku, in ,my belief Goku only went SSJ to push Frost to use his full power.

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Vegeta no sold the hit because his SSJ form is vastly superior to Cabba's, Toriyama made clear that they improved their normal saiyan form, which is why SSJ2 and 3 are almost never used.

Dragomer said:

AwkguyDB said:

for 1 you should touch up on the difference between the ritual of SSJG and the actual transformation.Goku not only absorbed the POWER of SSJG but he surpassed it in Base, keep in mind the power he absorbed is not to be confused with god ki. He did not retain or obtain his own God Ki till his training with Whis.
2. I agree with 2 but for the most part most fighters who are Universal are so because they actually scale to Blue. Take Android 17 and Gohan for example. 17 is Blue tier because he could keep up with Blue Goku while still holding back and Gohan was stated to push Goku into using Kaioken.

3. I actually 100% agree with. My personal bias, I believe no one on that team scales to Base Goku or Vegeta with the exception of Hit. Vegeta flat out no sold a hit from Cabba, an Enraged SSJ and while he too was SSJ that should mean that their Base should be the same thing. Frost, especially in the manga, was no threat to even Base Goku, in ,my belief Goku only went SSJ to push Frost to use his full power.

Click to expand...

Vegeta no sold the hit because his SSJ form is vastly superior to Cabba's, Toriyama made clear that they improved their normal saiyan form, which is why SSJ2 and 3 are almost never used.

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thats true shoot i forget about grade4

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